Russia invades Ukraine *** READ RULES IN POST 6 BEFORE POSTING ***

Montanalo

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It is interesting how the how the views of the the public and government officials have evolved this past year.

Many polls are showing decreasing public support for Ukraine while, at the same time, many government officials are openly calling for regime change in Russia... the rhetoric from folks like Senator Graham have become very pro-war.

Now that Russia and China are becoming cozier, things have taken an interesting turn with many calling for the defeat of Russia to stymie China aggression with regard to Taiwan.

Oh, the tangled web we weave.
 

triplets_93

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Many polls are showing decreasing public support for Ukraine while, at the same time, many government officials are openly calling for regime change in Russia... the rhetoric from folks like Senator Graham have become very pro-war.
 

Montanalo

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I don't know about the 2nd most. There is a lot of fierce competition for that 'honor'
Ukraine ranks 116 out of 180 countries on the 2022 Corruption Perception Index. Russian ranks 137.... so not far off. For what it is worth, Denmark is number 1 (least corrupt) and Somalia is 180. I worked in Nigeria for a number of years, and it is ranked 150... that said, my company chose not to operate in Ukraine because of corruption.
 

teamrican1

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Ukraine ranks 116 out of 180 countries on the 2022 Corruption Perception Index. Russian ranks 137.... so not far off. For what it is worth, Denmark is number 1 (least corrupt) and Somalia is 180. I worked in Nigeria for a number of years, and it is ranked 150... that said, my company chose not to operate in Ukraine because of corruption.
I've lived in both countries and there is no question Ukraine is more corrupt. Moldova is probably the only country in Europe more corrupt than Ukraine. When the Soviet Union fell, Oligarchs took over in both Russia and Ukraine. Putin is so incredibly popular within Russia because he brought the Oligarchs and mafia to heel. That never happened in Ukraine. For Ukraine, the crime, corruption, and dysfunction of 90's era Russia/Ukraine never ended. Zelensky was literally a popular TV comedian with no political experience who the Oligarch Ihor Kolomoyski tapped to be "his" Presidential candidate.

The one silver lining of this war is that Ukraine's Oligarch problem has largely been fixed. Most of their wealth came from enterprises and industries in Eastern Ukraine that have either been seized by Russia or destroyed. The best outcome for the Ukrainian people will probably be a partition of Ukraine between Poland, Hungary, Romania, and Russia. All those countries will provide far better administration and governance than what the people are experiencing currently and have experienced for the past 30 years.
 

gtb1943

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I've lived in both countries and there is no question Ukraine is more corrupt. Moldova is probably the only country in Europe more corrupt than Ukraine. When the Soviet Union fell, Oligarchs took over in both Russia and Ukraine. Putin is so incredibly popular within Russia because he brought the Oligarchs and mafia to heel. That never happened in Ukraine. For Ukraine, the crime, corruption, and dysfunction of 90's era Russia/Ukraine never ended. Zelensky was literally a popular TV comedian with no political experience who the Oligarch Ihor Kolomoyski tapped to be "his" Presidential candidate.

The one silver lining of this war is that Ukraine's Oligarch problem has largely been fixed. Most of their wealth came from enterprises and industries in Eastern Ukraine that have either been seized by Russia or destroyed. The best outcome for the Ukrainian people will probably be a partition of Ukraine between Poland, Hungary, Romania, and Russia. All those countries will provide far better administration and governance than what the people are experiencing currently and have experienced for the past 30 years.
Thank you, Putin's secretary for your input. By the way Russians are stupid for loving dictators; not surprising so many want Stalin back.
 

RustyBourneHorse

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I've lived in both countries and there is no question Ukraine is more corrupt. Moldova is probably the only country in Europe more corrupt than Ukraine. When the Soviet Union fell, Oligarchs took over in both Russia and Ukraine. Putin is so incredibly popular within Russia because he brought the Oligarchs and mafia to heel. That never happened in Ukraine. For Ukraine, the crime, corruption, and dysfunction of 90's era Russia/Ukraine never ended. Zelensky was literally a popular TV comedian with no political experience who the Oligarch Ihor Kolomoyski tapped to be "his" Presidential candidate.

The one silver lining of this war is that Ukraine's Oligarch problem has largely been fixed. Most of their wealth came from enterprises and industries in Eastern Ukraine that have either been seized by Russia or destroyed. The best outcome for the Ukrainian people will probably be a partition of Ukraine between Poland, Hungary, Romania, and Russia. All those countries will provide far better administration and governance than what the people are experiencing currently and have experienced for the past 30 years.

I've never lived in Ukraine or Russia. So, I'm curious. How does the oligarch system in Russia and Ukraine work? I'd imagine the fastest way to end the war would be through the oligarchs.
 

DFWJC

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Ukraine ranks 116 out of 180 countries on the 2022 Corruption Perception Index. Russian ranks 137.... so not far off. For what it is worth, Denmark is number 1 (least corrupt) and Somalia is 180. I worked in Nigeria for a number of years, and it is ranked 150... that said, my company chose not to operate in Ukraine because of corruption.
Yeah, Russia and Ukraine are pretty much the same when it comes to corruption.
 

Bobhaze

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*** THREAD RULES ***

Do not post anything remotely related to US politics on the site!

That also includes using pseudo arguments of politically aligned issues in an attempt to circumvent this policy!

This thread is ONLY about the Ukraine situation!

You can discuss NATO, Ukraine, Russia, etc. but do not discuss any US-specific involvement as part of those discussions.

If you violate these rules, you will be removed from the thread and your account may be suspended for an extended period of time!
 

Streifenkarl

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If a NATO country starts hostilities, can it invoke Article 5 of the treaty or is it an unprovoked attack on them?
It's a defence agreement. When the US invaded Grenada NATO just stood aside. I think if Poland really would go to war with Russia it would be a problem for the EU alot more than it would be for the US.

But I doubt Poland really would. The EU couldn't accept that. That Ambassador was way out of line there, I wonder whether his statements were sanctioned by his government.

(Edit: They already made a u-turn lol).
 

teamrican1

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I've never lived in Ukraine or Russia. So, I'm curious. How does the oligarch system in Russia and Ukraine work? I'd imagine the fastest way to end the war would be through the oligarchs.
During Perestroika, Gorbachev oversaw some market system type reforms that led to the rise of a class of proto-capitalist businessmen. When the USSR fell, these politically connected businessmen were able to buy up state assets of Russia and Ukraine for peanuts and became billionaires overnight. Their power was such that collectively they dwarfed the power of the state. They could buy off whatever politicians, judge, or official they wanted. And they had an army of paid assassins and thugs on their payroll to handle any dispute. Think of 1980's Columbia andthe cartels except far worse. Belarus was the only country that avoided this fate because Lukashenko essentially instituted a Stalinist-style dictatorship there. This brought its own set of problems but crime wasn't one of them and to this day Minsk is one of the cleanest and safest cities in Eastern Europe.

When Putin came to power in 2000, everyone assumed business would go on as usual. But what nobody knew was that Putin and his FSB pals had been quietly waiting for this opportunity for years and Putin oversaw what was for all intents and purposes an officer's coup. The FSB took back control of the government and went to war against the Oligarchs. Putin offered the Oligarchs a bargain: disavow all involvement the political system and keep you get to keep your fortune- refuse and face exile, arrest, or death. Many of Russia's worst Oligarchs fled to London. Some fought and were jailed. A few died under mysterious circumstances. And in the end all that remained were the Oligarchs who had agreed to take the deal. The Russian based Oligarchs were brought to heel. This ended the misery and chaos of the 1990's in Russia. The Oligarchs in Russia now answer to the state rather than the other way around.

In Ukraine that never happened. Oligarchs controlled all the media outlets, all the major industries, and owned most of the legislators and all of the Presidents from 1991 all the way until the current war. But like I said before, the war changed everything. So an Oligarch brokered peace is out of the question now. Putin had already broken the Russian Oligarchs and the war itself has broken the Ukrainian Oligarchs. The war has destroyed the Ukrainian economy and most of the assets that form the basis of the Ukrainian Oligarchs' wealth have either been destroyed or seized by Russia. The Ukrainian Armed Forces are now the most powerful independent political force in Ukraine. Only they now have the power to realistically challenge the government.
 

Montanalo

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During Perestroika, Gorbachev oversaw some market system type reforms that led to the rise of a class of proto-capitalist businessmen. When the USSR fell, these politically connected businessmen were able to buy up state assets of Russia and Ukraine for peanuts and became billionaires overnight. Their power was such that collectively they dwarfed the power of the state. They could buy off whatever politicians, judge, or official they wanted. And they had an army of paid assassins and thugs on their payroll to handle any dispute. Think of 1980's Columbia andthe cartels except far worse. Belarus was the only country that avoided this fate because Lukashenko essentially instituted a Stalinist-style dictatorship there. This brought its own set of problems but crime wasn't one of them and to this day Minsk is one of the cleanest and safest cities in Eastern Europe.

When Putin came to power in 2000, everyone assumed business would go on as usual. But what nobody knew was that Putin and his FSB pals had been quietly waiting for this opportunity for years and Putin oversaw what was for all intents and purposes an officer's coup. The FSB took back control of the government and went to war against the Oligarchs. Putin offered the Oligarchs a bargain: disavow all involvement the political system and keep you get to keep your fortune- refuse and face exile, arrest, or death. Many of Russia's worst Oligarchs fled to London. Some fought and were jailed. A few died under mysterious circumstances. And in the end all that remained were the Oligarchs who had agreed to take the deal. The Russian based Oligarchs were brought to heel. This ended the misery and chaos of the 1990's in Russia. The Oligarchs in Russia now answer to the state rather than the other way around.

In Ukraine that never happened. Oligarchs controlled all the media outlets, all the major industries, and owned most of the legislators and all of the Presidents from 1991 all the way until the current war. But like I said before, the war changed everything. So an Oligarch brokered peace is out of the question now. Putin had already broken the Russian Oligarchs and the war itself has broken the Ukrainian Oligarchs. The war has destroyed the Ukrainian economy and most of the assets that form the basis of the Ukrainian Oligarchs' wealth have either been destroyed or seized by Russia. The Ukrainian Armed Forces are now the most powerful independent political force in Ukraine. Only they now have the power to realistically challenge the government.
Good summary... in a very few words, the oligarchs and their organizations operate much like the mafia or the cosa nostra.
 

RustyBourneHorse

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During Perestroika, Gorbachev oversaw some market system type reforms that led to the rise of a class of proto-capitalist businessmen. When the USSR fell, these politically connected businessmen were able to buy up state assets of Russia and Ukraine for peanuts and became billionaires overnight. Their power was such that collectively they dwarfed the power of the state. They could buy off whatever politicians, judge, or official they wanted. And they had an army of paid assassins and thugs on their payroll to handle any dispute. Think of 1980's Columbia andthe cartels except far worse. Belarus was the only country that avoided this fate because Lukashenko essentially instituted a Stalinist-style dictatorship there. This brought its own set of problems but crime wasn't one of them and to this day Minsk is one of the cleanest and safest cities in Eastern Europe.

When Putin came to power in 2000, everyone assumed business would go on as usual. But what nobody knew was that Putin and his FSB pals had been quietly waiting for this opportunity for years and Putin oversaw what was for all intents and purposes an officer's coup. The FSB took back control of the government and went to war against the Oligarchs. Putin offered the Oligarchs a bargain: disavow all involvement the political system and keep you get to keep your fortune- refuse and face exile, arrest, or death. Many of Russia's worst Oligarchs fled to London. Some fought and were jailed. A few died under mysterious circumstances. And in the end all that remained were the Oligarchs who had agreed to take the deal. The Russian based Oligarchs were brought to heel. This ended the misery and chaos of the 1990's in Russia. The Oligarchs in Russia now answer to the state rather than the other way around.

In Ukraine that never happened. Oligarchs controlled all the media outlets, all the major industries, and owned most of the legislators and all of the Presidents from 1991 all the way until the current war. But like I said before, the war changed everything. So an Oligarch brokered peace is out of the question now. Putin had already broken the Russian Oligarchs and the war itself has broken the Ukrainian Oligarchs. The war has destroyed the Ukrainian economy and most of the assets that form the basis of the Ukrainian Oligarchs' wealth have either been destroyed or seized by Russia. The Ukrainian Armed Forces are now the most powerful independent political force in Ukraine. Only they now have the power to realistically challenge the government.

Ah, I see. Yes, that would make sense. Especially on the Ukrainian side of things with how the war has destroyed the economy at the moment. So, I'd imagine some deal would have to be brokered between the Ukrainian Armed Forces and the Russian government to end the war.
 
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