Safety is not priority number one in this draft

[tm1119]

i'd be fine with hayden starting provided he never had to play a passing down.

agree tho that those two positions are so easily upgraded we should almost assume they will be.

Agreed. We can use a 4th/5th round pick and platoon that player with Hayden abd have a perfectly fine 1 tech. And I would personally find a reliable FS via free agency. That leaves having to fill DE, 3 tech, and at least a depth LB through the draft. Not at all unreasonable or hard to pull off in my opinion, but we'll see what direction Jerry decides to go in.

 

[jterrell]

Under most circumstances I would agree with Rich, but this year is different The Cowboys are faced with having the 2nd worst DT in the NFL teamed with a guy who missed all of last season due to his torn Achilles, backed up by another guy who missed all of last season. AND they're losing a DT who contributed 11 sacks to a team that only had 30-some to begin with.

DT is really a cesspool at this point.

DT is a definite need but saying Hayden was worse a player than Heath or Wilcox because of PFF ratings is rather silly. (which I suspect you know)
The team had lots of DL play and yet Hayden played a lot of minutes based on the staff liking what he did.
He was very mediocre but he was a constant regardless of injuries.

Heath and Wilcox pinballed back and forth as the team looked for answers.
They were still taking turns earning bench time in week 17.

No idea how PFF grades safeties when they run to the wrong area of the field as Wilcox did repeatedly or what grade they give for failing to play the ball on a post pattern but I do know they grade each play individually and score a loss a loss on a per play basis regardless if it is getting blocked in one spot or falling down and leaving 20 yards free space. Like Heath's own quote "I did have some bad plays." Problem is you can't have bad plays at safety. It's like a surgeon having a bad day. Safety is involved....

The Cowboys pass defense was horrendous. We were tortured by top flight WR, by RBs and were the worst team in football defending Tight Ends.

Dallas needs a plan to insure they have 8 legit DL. A replacement for Hatcher is very important.
But Safety is in that group of very serious needs and is the one position most easily upgraded by adding a quality starter.
Wilcox and Heath would make for fine young depth but this is the NFL and you don't develop guys in game at safety.

As it relates to actually winning football games no position effected Dallas more negatively in 2013 than safety.

 

[jterrell]

Agreed. We can use a 4th/5th round pick and platoon that player with Hayden abd have a perfectly fine 1 tech. And I would personally find a reliable FS via free agency. That leaves having to fill DE, 3 tech, and at least a depth LB through the draft. Not at all unreasonable or hard to pull off in my opinion, but we'll see what direction Jerry decides to go in.

Wouldn't argue against that strat but it looks like there are actually more young DL on the market than safeties in this FA class.
I also tend to like the Crawford/Bass duo more than the Wilcox/Heath duo if we are talking 3T versus SS next year.
Largely because one bad play by a safety ends up in points.

I think we can all agree if we are being honest we need to upgrade/address DL and LB and Safety.
And no matter what happens I doubt we'll agree with what Dallas does wholeheartedly.
And even if we did it doesn't make it any more likely to be right in the long run.
The RW11 trade was wildly popular as was the Joey Galloway trade before it.
Both were duds galore.

 

[LatinMind]

DT is a definite need but saying Hayden was worse a player than Heath or Wilcox because of PFF ratings is rather silly. (which I suspect you know)
The team had lots of DL play and yet Hayden played a lot of minutes based on the staff liking what he did.
He was very mediocre but he was a constant regardless of injuries.

Heath and Wilcox pinballed back and forth as the team looked for answers.
They were still taking turns earning bench time in week 17.

No idea how PFF grades safeties when they run to the wrong area of the field as Wilcox did repeatedly or what grade they give for failing to play the ball on a post pattern but I do know they grade each play individually and score a loss a loss on a per play basis regardless if it is getting blocked in one spot or falling down and leaving 20 yards free space. Like Heath's own quote "I did have some bad plays." Problem is you can't have bad plays at safety. It's like a surgeon having a bad day. Safety is involved....

The Cowboys pass defense was horrendous. We were tortured by top flight WR, by RBs and were the worst team in football defending Tight Ends.

Dallas needs a plan to insure they have 8 legit DL. A replacement for Hatcher is very important.
But Safety is in that group of very serious needs and is the one position most easily upgraded by adding a quality starter.
Wilcox and Heath would make for fine young depth but this is the NFL and you don't develop guys in game at safety.

As it relates to actually winning football games no position effected Dallas more negatively in 2013 than safety.

PFF has some of the stupidest rankings imaginable. Not really the idea but the way they get their rankings. This has been beaten like a drum. If Hayden starts this defense is 2013 all over again. Youre saying aslong as he isnt in passing down, in the NFL today 2 out of 3 plays are passing downs.

How is a safety supposed to do his job in this defense when the DL has no passrush and the QB has the time to pick and choose and Wrs have the time to adjust their route to get open? In this defense its designed to eliminate that adjustment by WRs. But it doesnt work if the QB has a big pocket and nobody around him to force him to get rid of the ball. So i have no idea how ur coming up with this statement on Safety play was the most negative posistion this yr.

Youre letting your wants for this team blind you from common sense of whats really the problem of this defense.

 

[tm1119]

Wouldn't argue against that strat but it looks like there are actually more young DL on the market than safeties in this FA class.
I also tend to like the Crawford/Bass duo more than the Wilcox/Heath duo if we are talking 3T versus SS next year.
Largely because one bad play by a safety ends up in points.

I think we can all agree if we are being honest we need to upgrade/address DL and LB and Safety.
And no matter what happens I doubt we'll agree with what Dallas does wholeheartedly.
And even if we did it doesn't make it any more likely to be right in the long run.
The RW11 trade was wildly popular as was the Joey Galloway trade before it.
Both were duds galore.

3 tech is mandatory is the either round 1 or 2 for me. I do like some of the DT's in FA, but I see them getting considerably more $ than the 2nd tier safeties. My target would be Chris Clemons from Miami. Reasonably priced and a big improvement. Someone like that could be a good stopgap for 2 years. LB is the question mark on how to fill for me.

 

[wileedog]

So go out and draft another rookie? Wouldnt the smarter answer be go sign a vet?

A rookie that perhaps played more than one season at the position at a top program. I think a solid vet will be harder given our cap space issues.

Either way, my point is the position needs addressing in some way.

 

[jterrell]

PFF has some of the stupidest rankings imaginable. Not really the idea but the way they get their rankings. This has been beaten like a drum. If Hayden starts this defense is 2013 all over again. Youre saying aslong as he isnt in passing down, in the NFL today 2 out of 3 plays are passing downs.

How is a safety supposed to do his job in this defense when the DL has no passrush and the QB has the time to pick and choose and Wrs have the time to adjust their route to get open? In this defense its designed to eliminate that adjustment by WRs. But it doesnt work if the QB has a big pocket and nobody around him to force him to get rid of the ball. So i have no idea how ur coming up with this statement on Safety play was the most negative posistion this yr.

Youre letting your wants for this team blind you from common sense of whats really the problem of this defense.

VERY few 1Ts get pass rush pressure so you are rather making my point for me.
I'd probably consider 3T or SDE in round 1 but not 1T for that very reason.
I don't need R1 run stuffers.

As my post showed I feel we need to add depth and talent to the DL. But we currently have more talent on the DL than we do at Safety.
The worst two players on the field for the Dallas Cowboys in week 17 were Jeff Heath who had to be benched and JJ Wilcox who likewise was benched.
Heath couldn't cover then Wilcox forgot where he was supposed to line up. It was keystone cops stuff from those guys.

My wants relate to actual team needs. I am not in love with any of these safeties. Same as I haven't been in previous seasons.
Eventually though we need a safety that doesn't suck.
Same as we had to go R1 for an OC to finally settle the position we may well have to do that again.

The best 16th pick in the last decade has been Troy Polamalu.
I'd gladly pay pick 16 for him again.

Hayden isn't as bad as PFF makes out. He easily won the job last year, allowing us to trade Lissemore; and while hardly a play maker he held his own versus the run while the other 3 DL pass rushed. He is a fine option on 1st and 2nd downs and in short yardage. He can use some more rest and he is not a 3rd and long guy.

 

[Doomsday101]

VERY few 1Ts get pass rush pressure so you are rather making my point for me.
I'd probably consider 3T or SDE in round 1 but not 1T for that very reason.
I don't need R1 run stuffers.

As my post showed I feel we need to add depth and talent to the DL. But we currently have more talent on the DL than we do at Safety.
The worst two players on the field for the Dallas Cowboys in week 17 were Jeff Heath who had to be benched and JJ Wilcox who likewise was benched.
Heath couldn't cover then Wilcox forgot where he was supposed to line up. It was keystone cops stuff from those guys.

My wants relate to actual team needs. I am not in love with any of these safeties. Same as I haven't been in previous seasons.
Eventually though we need a safety that doesn't suck.
Same as we had to go R1 for an OC to finally settle the position we may well have to do that again.

The best 16th pick in the last decade has been Troy Polamalu.
I'd gladly pay pick 16 for him again.

Hayden isn't as bad as PFF makes out. He easily won the job last year, allowing us to trade Lissemore; and while hardly a play maker he held his own versus the run while the other 3 DL pass rushed. He is a fine option on 1st and 2nd downs and in short yardage. He can use some more rest and he is not a 3rd and long guy.

depth? I'm talking starters most of the DL were guys pulled off their couches. If a safety is there great but unless this DL is fixed it really does not matter who is playing safety. In the end Dallas has to fix the front and back end fixing one is not going to make a differance if the other is still lacking. As for Dallas safety no one knows what they will develop into you had 2 raw rookies back there with a defensive front who was dealing with massive turnover.

 

[LatinMind]

VERY few 1Ts get pass rush pressure so you are rather making my point for me.
I'd probably consider 3T or SDE in round 1 but not 1T for that very reason.
I don't need R1 run stuffers.

As my post showed I feel we need to add depth and talent to the DL. But we currently have more talent on the DL than we do at Safety.
The worst two players on the field for the Dallas Cowboys in week 17 were Jeff Heath who had to be benched and JJ Wilcox who likewise was benched.
Heath couldn't cover then Wilcox forgot where he was supposed to line up. It was keystone cops stuff from those guys.

My wants relate to actual team needs. I am not in love with any of these safeties. Same as I haven't been in previous seasons.
Eventually though we need a safety that doesn't suck.
Same as we had to go R1 for an OC to finally settle the position we may well have to do that again.

The best 16th pick in the last decade has been Troy Polamalu.
I'd gladly pay pick 16 for him again.

Hayden isn't as bad as PFF makes out. He easily won the job last year, allowing us to trade Lissemore; and while hardly a play maker he held his own versus the run while the other 3 DL pass rushed. He is a fine option on 1st and 2nd downs and in short yardage. He can use some more rest and he is not a 3rd and long guy.

Dallas doesnt run a traditional 4-3. They need both their DTs to rush the passer.

 

[xwalker]

VERY few 1Ts get pass rush pressure so you are rather making my point for me.
I'd probably consider 3T or SDE in round 1 but not 1T for that very reason.
I don't need R1 run stuffers.

Marinelli wants a 1-tech that can play a style similar to how Ratliff played NT back when he was good. He wants the 1-tech to split double-teams and try to get pressure instead of just holding the point against double-teams to allow the other players to get pressure.

Most people think that he is against bigger players, but I don't know if that is really true. I think he's had players with limited size in the past because they were more available than quick-twitch players that were also bigger than average. I have to believe that he would be on board with a guy like Dontari Poe (6-3, 346, 4.5 sacks in 2013).

I also like free agent Linval Joseph (6-4, 323). He seems to be somewhat of a quick-twitch player despite his size. I don't think the Cowboys will sign him, but it's just an example of a bigger player that I believe would fit the system.

My biggest concern with smallish DT, is that the league allows so much holding by OLinemen these days. A player like Dontari Poe can just power through even is he is being held while a smaller speed based player is more affected by the holding.

 

[jterrell]

depth? I'm talking starters most of the DL were guys pulled off their couches. If a safety is there great but unless this DL is fixed it really does not matter who is playing safety. In the end Dallas has to fix the front and back end fixing one is not going to make a differance if the other is still lacking. As for Dallas safety no one knows what they will develop into you had 2 raw rookies back there with a defensive front who was dealing with massive turnover.

no argument there.
you have to address both areas.

when you have legit DL depth you can count 6 or 7 guys as starters.
See Seahawks and even 90s Cowboys. Not all those guys have to be fantastic they just need to be legit NFL DL who can rotate in and stay fresh and play hard.

 

[jterrell]

Marinelli wants a 1-tech that can play a style similar to how Ratliff played NT back when he was good. He wants the 1-tech to split double-teams and try to get pressure instead of just holding the point against double-teams to allow the other players to get pressure.

Most people think that he is against bigger players, but I don't know if that is really true. I think he's had players with limited size in the past because they were more available than quick-twitch players that were also bigger than average. I have to believe that he would be on board with a guy like Dontari Poe (6-3, 346, 4.5 sacks in 2013).

I also like free agent Linval Joseph (6-4, 323). He seems to be somewhat of a quick-twitch player despite his size. I don't think the Cowboys will sign him, but it's just an example of a bigger player that I believe would fit the system.

My biggest concern with smallish DT, is that the league allows so much holding by OLinemen these days. A player like Dontari Poe can just power through even is he is being held while a smaller speed based player is more affected by the holding.

hard to imagine any dl coach not liking Poe now but he was apparently graded very differently across theleague when he came out a couple years ago.
words such as workout wonder, sloppy, fat and lazy were used by at least some...

i do not see a 1T in this class anything like the raw athlete Poe is.
jernigan may be closest thing and we'll see his combine totals in a couple/three weeks.

 

[jobberone]

DT is a definite need but saying Hayden was worse a player than Heath or Wilcox because of PFF ratings is rather silly. (which I suspect you know)
The team had lots of DL play and yet Hayden played a lot of minutes based on the staff liking what he did.
He was very mediocre but he was a constant regardless of injuries.

Heath and Wilcox pinballed back and forth as the team looked for answers.
They were still taking turns earning bench time in week 17.

No idea how PFF grades safeties when they run to the wrong area of the field as Wilcox did repeatedly or what grade they give for failing to play the ball on a post pattern but I do know they grade each play individually and score a loss a loss on a per play basis regardless if it is getting blocked in one spot or falling down and leaving 20 yards free space. Like Heath's own quote "I did have some bad plays." Problem is you can't have bad plays at safety. It's like a surgeon having a bad day. Safety is involved....

The Cowboys pass defense was horrendous. We were tortured by top flight WR, by RBs and were the worst team in football defending Tight Ends.

Dallas needs a plan to insure they have 8 legit DL. A replacement for Hatcher is very important.
But Safety is in that group of very serious needs and is the one position most easily upgraded by adding a quality starter.
Wilcox and Heath would make for fine young depth but this is the NFL and you don't develop guys in game at safety.

As it relates to actually winning football games no position effected Dallas more negatively in 2013 than safety.

I liked you post but I think the DL is very important to the play of the DBs which you know. So I'd have no problems with picking a S or a DL in the first or second.

I will say that of recent S and C are the least risky picks in the first and those guys are likely to contribute right away. That could be based on need or a combination of that and being BPA at their pick. Whatever the reason, it is a safer pick than any other position other than C.

All this hinges on, I hope, how they feel about Johnson and Wilcox as well as Church and much less so Heath. If they feel Johnson or Wilcox can deliver next year then they might lean away from that position unless a S falls that is clearly the BPA. Keep in mind, and I hope they do as well, that Wilcox can likely play another position other than safety. So moving him doesn't necessarily mean devaluing his pick esp since he would serve as depth which is the most likely scenario anyway.

If the BPA is clearly a DL then I'd go there if they feel they fit their philosophy and scheme. I'd put a pass rusher over anyone at the moment.

 

[Doomsday101]

no argument there.
you have to address both areas.

when you have legit DL depth you can count 6 or 7 guys as starters.
See Seahawks and even 90s Cowboys. Not all those guys have to be fantastic they just need to be legit NFL DL who can rotate in and stay fresh and play hard.

True, as I said not opposed to getting a safety but main thing is get quality defensive players who can come in and make a differance if that is on the DL great if it is safety then great. I just know DL is in critical shape, we don't know what will take place with Ware coming off back to back season with injuries that have hindered him. Hatcher we don't know if he will be back or if Spencer will get signed. Meantime most of the DL were guys sitting at home getting calls during the season signing on Monday and playing the following Sunday. There is no way you will put together a defensive unit when guys are coming and going in a weeks time.

 

[Doomsday101]

I liked you post but I think the DL is very important to the play of the DBs which you know. So I'd have no problems with picking a S or a DL in the first or second.

I will say that of recent S and C are the least risky picks in the first and those guys are likely to contribute right away. That could be based on need or a combination of that and being BPA at their pick. Whatever the reason, it is a safer pick than any other position other than C.

All this hinges on, I hope, how they feel about Johnson and Wilcox as well as Church and much less so Heath. If they feel Johnson or Wilcox can deliver next year then they might lean away from that position unless a S falls that is clearly the BPA. Keep in mind, and I hope they do as well, that Wilcox can likely play another position other than safety. So moving him doesn't necessarily mean devaluing his pick esp since he would serve as depth which is the most likely scenario anyway.

If the BPA is clearly a DL then I'd go there if they feel they fit their philosophy and scheme. I'd put a pass rusher over anyone at the moment.

Very true and what makes it hard is they were rookies playing in the secondary with little to no pass rush helping them. That is a no win situation for these young guys, how good are they or will be I don't know.

 

[jobberone]

Very true and what makes it hard is they were rookies playing in the secondary with little to no pass rush helping them. That is a no win situation for these young guys, how good are they or will be I don't know.

No, that won't do at all.

 

[Doomsday101]

No, that won't do at all.

I clearly understand the mindset of getting a safety because right now we don't know what we have in Wilcox or Heath and of course Johnson who has not seen the field. I just know Wilcox and Heath job became much harder when your D-line is a revolving door who could not get a pass rush and struggled vs the run. There are quality safeties who would struggle under those circumstances.

 

[jterrell]

Dallas doesnt run a traditional 4-3. They need both their DTs to rush the passer.

Going to agree to disagree with you and XW here.
If we were interested even slightly in a 1T we'd probably have drafted Floyd and never looked back.

I believe the 3T here is in fact a run stuffing position.

I am sure any coach would take an all-pro caliber player here and be very happy but I do not suspect Dallas wants to invest any real resources into this position.

I believe in the Cowboys perfect scenario a 1T falls into their laps in rounds 4 or 5 that can back up Hayden and apply 'some' pressure on passing downs.
SDE, WDE and 3T are probably all legit round 1-3 targets for Dallas.
If Dallas feels Jernigan or someone is special maybe they take them at 16 but I really can't see that happening.

Of course we wont know much until this year's draft board leaks, lol.
There were a handful of big boys on the last board but then they ignored board and skipped Floyd anyways.

 

[jterrell]

I clearly understand the mindset of getting a safety because right now we don't know what we have in Wilcox or Heath and of course Johnson who has not seen the field. I just know Wilcox and Heath job became much harder when your D-line is a revolving door who could not get a pass rush and struggled vs the run. There are quality safeties who would struggle under those circumstances.

What you are saying is accurate.
It is CLEARLY a symbiotic relationship between pressure and coverage.

At the same time pressure doesn't line you up correctly or teach you to play the ball in the air.
Those are issues you correct in Pop Warner football.
At the NFL level those things result in getting cut and teaching Pop Warner.

It's like a car needing tires to run. But the tires are pointless if the motor wont even turn over.
At the same time a brand new motor doesn't help if you are riding on rims.

Have to have some minimal standard of play for both pressure and coverage.
Last year Dallas managed the daily double of 0 for 2.
Thus the historic performance.

 

[Doomsday101]

What you are saying is accurate.
It is CLEARLY a symbiotic relationship between pressure and coverage.

At the same time pressure doesn't line you up correctly or teach you to play the ball in the air.
Those are issues you correct in Pop Warner football.
At the NFL level those things result in getting cut and teaching Pop Warner.

It's like a car needing tires to run. But the tires are pointless if the motor wont even turn over.
At the same time a brand new motor doesn't help if you are riding on rims.

Have to have some minimal standard of play for both pressure and coverage.
Last year Dallas managed the daily double of 0 for 2.
Thus the historic performance.

Playing the ball in the air is great unless you are beat and chasing the play then looking back for the ball does not help you at all. Being in position allows the DB to turn back for the ball, these guys are young they got no help from guys up front. Believe or not they understand the position, they are in the NFL your right pop warner kids learn this as do College players so don't kid yourself acting as if they don't know they made it to a level of football few will ever make it to. Does not change the fact that they like any DB need the help from the guys up front.