Safety is not priority number one in this draft

jobberone

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Going to agree to disagree with you and XW here.
If we were interested even slightly in a 1T we'd probably have drafted Floyd and never looked back.

I believe the 3T here is in fact a run stuffing position.

I am sure any coach would take an all-pro caliber player here and be very happy but I do not suspect Dallas wants to invest any real resources into this position.

I believe in the Cowboys perfect scenario a 1T falls into their laps in rounds 4 or 5 that can back up Hayden and apply 'some' pressure on passing downs.
SDE, WDE and 3T are probably all legit round 1-3 targets for Dallas.
If Dallas feels Jernigan or someone is special maybe they take them at 16 but I really can't see that happening.

Of course we wont know much until this year's draft board leaks, lol.
There were a handful of big boys on the last board but then they ignored board and skipped Floyd anyways.

They don't play a traditional 1 but they will play a one gap 1 a lot whether they shoot that gap or hold it. They do play some two gap 1 as well. Most of it is one gap under. All teams mix it up more or less although some play a lot of traditional 1 with two gap control.

We aren't looking for a 1 IMO. We are looking for 3s and a pass rushing DE.
 

jterrell

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Playing the ball in the air is great unless you are beat and chasing the play then looking back for the ball does not help you at all. Being in position allows the DB to turn back for the ball, these guys are young they got no help from guys up front. Believe or not they understand the position, they are in the NFL your right pop warner kids learn this as do College players so don't kid yourself acting as if they don't know they made it to a level of football few will ever make it to. Does not change the fact that they like any DB need the help from the guys up front.

Wilcox made it to the NFL based upon his athleticism. He has God given talents almost no one else is born with.
But he was initially a RB in college at a tiny school. He played all over on defense and basically just chased the ball.
But I promise you I understand coverages better than he does including whatever terminology Kiffen is using. --since I played safety with loads of Cougar 2/Cover 2 for Carlos Mainord who came out of Jimmy Johnson's Miami 4-3 system.
Strong Safety either has deep half(cover 2), man coverage on TE/RB(cover 0). underneath coverage in flat(cover 3) or there are exotics based upon blitzes that still really fall back into these coverages unless you are the blitzer. (everyone wants to be the blitzer)

Jeff Heath was not often out of position. He struggled with balls right to him. He literally was lined up ~18 yards off line of scrimmage, back pedals 10 yards, ball is thrown at 30 yards where he is standing and amazingly a WR goes up and gets the ball over him. It is really hard on replay to understand how he didn't do more on the play. There are at least 5 of those on the season. Once other teams had that on tape they knew to challenge him there. It is one of the easiest throw for an NFL(HS 17 yards/College 25 yards) QB.
But Heath Like Wilcox has NFL athleticism. That dude is fast and has solid length. So the question is why does this guy who screams beastmode athlete look like a terrible athlete when the ball is in the air in his general vicinity?

The fact these two had these issues is indeed VERY RARE for NFL players but it absolutely happened and in neither case was it some one time thing.
It happened to both guys in week 17 which is why they simply must have a possible upgrade on the roster.
 

Doomsday101

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Wilcox made it to the NFL based upon his athleticism. He has God given talents almost no one else is born with.
But he was initially a RB in college at a tiny school. He played all over on defense and basically just chased the ball.
But I promise you I understand coverages better than he does including whatever terminology Kiffen is using. --since I played safety with loads of Cougar 2/Cover 2 for Carlos Mainord who came out of Jimmy Johnson's Miami 4-3 system.
Strong Safety either has deep half(cover 2), man coverage on TE/RB(cover 0). underneath coverage in flat(cover 3) or there are exotics based upon blitzes that still really fall back into these coverages unless you are the blitzer. (everyone wants to be the blitzer)

Jeff Heath was not often out of position. He struggled with balls right to him. He literally was lined up ~18 yards off line of scrimmage, back pedals 10 yards, ball is thrown at 30 yards where he is standing and amazingly a WR goes up and gets the ball over him. It is really hard on replay to understand how he didn't do more on the play. There are at least 5 of those on the season. Once other teams had that on tape they knew to challenge him there. It is one of the easiest throw for an NFL(HS 17 yards/College 25 yards) QB.
But Heath Like Wilcox has NFL athleticism. That dude is fast and has solid length. So the question is why does this guy who screams beastmode athlete look like a terrible athlete when the ball is in the air in his general vicinity?

The fact these two had these issues is indeed VERY RARE for NFL players but it absolutely happened and in neither case was it some one time thing.
It happened to both guys in week 17 which is why they simply must have a possible upgrade on the roster.

why do many rookies struggle, they are rookies they had no help, Yes Dallas could just give up on them go to the next guy but that is not developing players. Again they got no help from a DL who could not rush the passer and could not stop the run it put a major burden on a safety and more so when you are trying to learn.
 

jterrell

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They don't play a traditional 1 but they will play a one gap 1 a lot whether they shoot that gap or hold it. They do play some two gap 1 as well. Most of it is one gap under. All teams mix it up more or less although some play a lot of traditional 1 with two gap control.

We aren't looking for a 1 IMO. We are looking for 3s and a pass rushing DE.

no doubt.
whether under, over or straight up i just look at what the team did last year with personnel.

passed on floyd, handed hayden starting gig, traded lissemore.
rotated in new off the street bodies behind hayden every week.
marinelli was always praiseful of hayden and he never really lost playing time though plenty of other guys did.
hatcher was able to rush the passer like never before.
that all adds up to suggest to me hayden was often 2-gapping it and doing the dirty work.

like you i'd project a 3T or DE to Dallas in round 1 unless free agency is more bountiful than anyone realistically imagines.
 

jterrell

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why do many rookies struggle, they are rookies they had no help, Yes Dallas could just give up on them go to the next guy but that is not developing players. Again they got no help from a DL who could not rush the passer and could not stop the run it put a major burden on a safety and more so when you are trying to learn.

Travis Frederick was a rookie that made the entire OL better.
Hard to say rookies should be propped up.

I am not giving up on Wilcox/Heath BUT I am giving up on them as the ONLY options at the position.
If they beat out folks, great.
If they are quality depth, great.
If they come back unchallenged except each other and both struggle, opposite of great.
Bringing to camp nothing better than Church/Wilcox/Johnson/Heath/McCray to me is absolutely absurd.

The DL doesnt really help Safeties in the ways Heath/Wilcox struggled.
A veteran safety might help them though.
Or perhaps just a really good rookie a la Frederick.

I think both of these guys could eventually be good for us.

I see Wilcox as a future starter that can shift to man coverage duties in nickel/dime.
I see Heath as special teams demon who can come in and play nickel/dime coverage areas potentially starting as a FS in a few years.
 

Doomsday101

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Travis Frederick was a rookie that made the entire OL better.
Hard to say rookies should be propped up.

I am not giving up on Wilcox/Heath BUT I am giving up on them as the ONLY options at the position.
If they beat out folks, great.
If they are quality depth, great.
If they come back unchallenged except each other and both struggle, opposite of great.
Bringing to camp nothing better than Church/Wilcox/Johnson/Heath/McCray to me is absolutely absurd.

The DL doesnt really help Safeties in the ways Heath/Wilcox struggled.
A veteran safety might help them though.
Or perhaps just a really good rookie a la Frederick.

I think both of these guys could eventually be good for us.

I see Wilcox as a future starter that can shift to man coverage duties in nickel/dime.
I see Heath as special teams demon who can come in and play nickel/dime coverage areas potentially starting as a FS in a few years.

I commend the job Frederick did it is also a different animal than safety. Again I have no issue with Dallas getting a safety I do know that DL with all the problems is a must and if you don't fix that then backend does not mean much. When DL can't stop the run they can't rush the passer the backend will have major problems. If I had to choose what is more of a priorty then to me that is easy it is DL where we have question marks right now with Ware, Spencer, Hatcher and then a host of guys who we pulled off the street. Selivie was a blessing but beyond that this defensive front is in critical condition. I could deal with having Church and Wilcox at safety but with all the issues up front that has to be a must.
 

jobberone

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no doubt.
whether under, over or straight up i just look at what the team did last year with personnel.

passed on floyd, handed hayden starting gig, traded lissemore.
rotated in new off the street bodies behind hayden every week.
marinelli was always praiseful of hayden and he never really lost playing time though plenty of other guys did.
hatcher was able to rush the passer like never before.
that all adds up to suggest to me hayden was often 2-gapping it and doing the dirty work.

like you i'd project a 3T or DE to Dallas in round 1 unless free agency is more bountiful than anyone realistically imagines.

Hayden didn't set the world on fire. The D gave up 122 rushing first downs, 17 rushing TDs, and 4.7 ypa. The defense was rated -3.4 with a -1.1 SOS and finished 26th in the NFL in ppg. Hayden got pushed around some but to be fair I looked at no film on him.

If you are playing the run you can't always shoot the gaps with both your tackles are you will run yourself out of the play or not be able to catch cutbacks or even stop runs to daylight particularly delayed handoffs etc.; and more. You have to play gap control more than a little. To be fair to Kiffin and Marinelli they wanted to play gap control esp shoot and hold.

I haven't looked at the latest data but we were getting hurt off the 5 and 7 hole which doesn't directly involve Hayden. But he did his share.
 

LatinMind

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Going to agree to disagree with you and XW here.
If we were interested even slightly in a 1T we'd probably have drafted Floyd and never looked back.

I believe the 3T here is in fact a run stuffing position.

I am sure any coach would take an all-pro caliber player here and be very happy but I do not suspect Dallas wants to invest any real resources into this position.

I believe in the Cowboys perfect scenario a 1T falls into their laps in rounds 4 or 5 that can back up Hayden and apply 'some' pressure on passing downs.
SDE, WDE and 3T are probably all legit round 1-3 targets for Dallas.
If Dallas feels Jernigan or someone is special maybe they take them at 16 but I really can't see that happening.

Of course we wont know much until this year's draft board leaks, lol.
There were a handful of big boys on the last board but then they ignored board and skipped Floyd anyways.

So youre dismissing everything Marinelli himself said this past TC and just going by your own thoughts on whats best for this defense? Because last yr Marinelli came out and said the DL doesnt worry about designating a 1tech and 3tech but rather just guys who get up the field and pressure.
 

Doomsday101

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Hayden didn't set the world on fire. The D gave up 122 rushing first downs, 17 rushing TDs, and 4.7 ypa. The defense was rated -3.4 with a -1.1 SOS and finished 26th in the NFL in ppg. Hayden got pushed around some but to be fair I looked at no film on him.

If you are playing the run you can't always shoot the gaps with both your tackles are you will run yourself out of the play or not be able to catch cutbacks or even stop runs to daylight particularly delayed handoffs etc.; and more. You have to play gap control more than a little. To be fair to Kiffin and Marinelli they wanted to play gap control esp shoot and hold.

I haven't looked at the latest data but we were getting hurt off the 5 and 7 hole which doesn't directly involve Hayden. But he did his share.

I think Hayden would be a good rotation guy but not a starter on this defense. Not trying to knock the guy I like how hard he played but Dallas needs better talent up front than that.
 

jobberone

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I think Hayden would be a good rotation guy but not a starter on this defense. Not trying to knock the guy I like how hard he played but Dallas needs better talent up front than that.

He's definitely marginal at best but he could develop. I don't even know what the dude looks like nor his number without looking it up though. I like 1s to be more fire plugs. But I don't think Marinelli is concerned about a 1. I am but not a huge deal.
 

LatinMind

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I think Hayden would be a good rotation guy but not a starter on this defense. Not trying to knock the guy I like how hard he played but Dallas needs better talent up front than that.

I dont think Hayden will be a Cowboy this yr.

Crawford
Bass

And probably two new faces. I think a RD1 DT(Donald/Jernigan) to go with Crawford and a mid round guy like a Cauran Reid, Ed Stinson, Josh Mauro for depth.
 

Doomsday101

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He's definitely marginal at best but he could develop. I don't even know what the dude looks like nor his number without looking it up though. I like 1s to be more fire plugs. But I don't think Marinelli is concerned about a 1. I am but not a huge deal.

I don't want to knock him but I see a solid backup in him but not a guy I would want playing the majority of plays.
 

Doomsday101

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Then we agree.

Selvie on the other hand I think we found a diamond in the rough with him. It will be interesting to see how this off season shapes up with so many question marks on the defensive front. Marinelli has his work cut out for him.
 

casmith07

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So youre dismissing everything Marinelli himself said this past TC and just going by your own thoughts on whats best for this defense? Because last yr Marinelli came out and said the DL doesnt worry about designating a 1tech and 3tech but rather just guys who get up the field and pressure.

Pete Carroll hybrid front 4...love it. And yes, they're disregarding it. The same kind of narrow-minded thinking that will get us in trouble.
 

bodi

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Safety is the second weakest position on the team. Because of this, the Cowboys will be forced to look at safety again this year in the draft. It’s not ideal to pick players at the same position in the draft year after year, but that’s what happens when you continually miss on your picks

The problems at safety are not due to a lack of trying. Dallas has used multiple draft picks in the last five years trying to find a safety. The problem is that they have drafted guys like Michael Hamlin in 2009 and Akwasi Owusu-Ansah in 2010, instead of talented guys like Kam Chancellor. In 2012, they selected Matt Johnson, who has been injured much more than he has been on the field.

In 2013, their best safety was Barry Church, who played pretty well, leading the team in tackles. However, he still struggles some in pass defense.

In the 2013 draft, the Cowboys selected J. J. Wilcox, hoping he could contribute right away. Unfortunately, Wilcox struggled early and often, and even had trouble beating out Jeff Heath for playing time. The Cowboys will give Wilcox every opportunity to succeed, but it is up to him to take advantage of it.

The other Cowboys’ safeties honestly would not make most teams’ roster. Jeff Heath tries hard, but he is just not a NFL caliber player. The fact that he was a starter for most the year speaks volumes about the kind of mess the Cowboys’ defense really is.
 

Hoofbite

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I don't think it really matters if Dallas goes with DL or S because they need too much DL help for 1 guy to make much of a difference and they play their safeties in such a manner where any safety who is drafted will likely have limited opportunities to do much more than cover against the deepest of deep passes. Dallas doesn't even really seem to let their safeties try to read the play, but rather just tells them to get deep as quickly as possible at the snap. Sometimes that would mean the safety is back peddling or even has his hips turned while moving back before the ball is even snapped.

Guess that's probably part of of the downside in having guys who've never really played safety to any great extent with their limited experience coming at schools that are known for likely everything but producing football players.

I'm honestly sick of having liabilities at the safety position. I think the team should draft one just to give hope that maybe one of these guys can finally get more interceptions than Alan Ball did while at FS.

As for DL, the unit is so depleted of talent that they need more than just 1, 2, or 3 good additions. Hatcher likely gone, Spencer who knows, Ware who knows but probably staying.

Maybe the team should draft a safety just to encourage the opposition to run on a DL comprised of practice squad players. Anything to keep teams from passing.
 
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