Saquon mania vs. Ezekiel facts

[PoetTree]

Spare me the analysis of one’s emotional state over the 1s and 0s of the Internet. Had the OP simply said that the Cowboys running game is more consistent than the Giants I wouldn’t have batted an eye. Instead he removed the longest run from each game with no justification whatsoever, and then declared Zeke to be better than Barkley and Emmitt to be better than Barry for some bizarre reason. The OP is just a homer working backwards to prove what he wants to be true and your armchair psychiatry and deflections don’t change that.

You don't seem very bright.

Let me explain it more s-l-o-w-l-y:

If the POINT of the analysis is to demonstrate that Saquon Barkley is a back who relies on the big-play, but isn't as consistent on a down-to-down basis as he should be, then subtracting the big-plays from his final tally --which isolates his production on every 'other' play-- is in fact an effective way to demonstrate exactly that; and in fact that's exactly what the analysis accurately demonstrates.

You're welcome.

 

[PoetTree]

TLDR.

Again, you used ONE play to try and prove an example to support what he did on the 94% of his plays, that’s illogical.

You have some serious reading & attitude difficulties and this will be the last time I speak with you...

It’s hilarious that you question whether the guy who broke several all time NFL records his rookie season behind one of the worst O lines to whether he will be as good as Zeke who had one yearly record (most total yards due to most carries) behind arguably the best O line in the league. That makes perfect sense, I think you finally have me convinced.

The comparison was between their 2018 squads.

You are desperately throwing straw-men everywhere.

#goodbye

 

[aria]

You don't seem very bright.

Let me explain it more s-l-o-w-l-y:

If the POINT of the analysis is to demonstrate that Saquon Barkley is a back who relies on the big-play, but isn't as consistent on a down-to-down basis as he should be, then subtracting the big-plays from his final tally --which isolates his production on every 'other' play-- is in fact an effective way to demonstrate exactly that; and in fact that's exactly what the analysis accurately demonstrates.

You're welcome.

Continue to ignore the difference in O lines, you haven’t acknowledged that once, I believe I’ve brought it up at least 5-6 times and you won’t respond to how significant the difference was and how that greatly influences the stats.

 

[Super_Kazuya]

You don't seem very bright.

Let me explain it more s-l-o-w-l-y:

If the POINT of the analysis is to demonstrate that Saquon Barkley is a back who relies on the big-play, but isn't as consistent on a down-to-down basis as he should be, then subtracting the big-plays from his final tally --which isolates his production on every 'other' play-- is in fact an effective way to demonstrate exactly that; and in fact that's exactly what the analysis accurately demonstrates.

You're welcome.

If that’s the point, then you failed miserably. But hey, throw in another Jimmy Johnson or Wayne Fontes quote... ok homer? You’re a joke.

 

[PoetTree]

Continue to ignore the difference in O lines, you haven’t acknowledged that once, I believe I’ve brought it up at least 5-6 times and you won’t respond to how significant the difference was and how that greatly influences the stats.

Like I said, reading difficulties:

I addressed the o-line issue with you directly, made a whole post about it in reply to you, and then you replied to my response; and here you are claiming I never addressed it. You are the very definition of a troll...

 

[aria]

You have some serious reading & attitude difficulties and this will be the last time I speak with you...




The comparison was between their 2018 squads.

You are desperately throwing straw-men everywhere.

#goodbye

That’s normal for people who overuse the term straw man and don’t have a rebuttal to a legitimate argument.

“I refuse to acknowledge how an O line contributes to an a running backs success but I didn’t bring it up, you did, so that’s a straw man argument”.

 

[aria]

Like I said, reading difficulties:

I addressed the o-line issue with you directly, made a whole post about it in reply to you, and then you replied to my response; and here you are claiming I never addressed it. You are the very definition of a troll...

Perhaps you can simplify for me.

Who had the best offensive line IN THE LEAGUE their rookie year? Zeke or Barkley?

Who had a bottom 5-10 offensive line their rookie year? Zeke or Barkley?

Is there any chance that much of a difference could greatly influence a RB’s overall stats? Yes or no?

 

[PoetTree]

Perhaps you can simplify for me.

Who had the best offensive line IN THE LEAGUE their rookie year? Zeke or Barkley?

My analysis had nothing to do with Zeke's rookie season. Do you know what the definition of a straw-man argument is?

Who had a bottom 5-10 offensive line their rookie year? Zeke or Barkley?

Neither. The Giants o-line overall was ranked in the bottom-half of the league (PFF has them @ 21 overall), but that figure is largely based upon their subpar pass-blocking --which they did genuinely struggle with. Evaluated purely as a run-blocking unit, PFF ranks them at 14 and Dallas @ 18.

I'm sure you could find other sources with different rankings. But I think it's fair to say that in 2018 each team's o-line was fairly middle-of-the-pack at run-blocking and I've said since response #1 in this thread that I consider it ostensibly a push.

Zeke unquestionably had the better o-line in his rookie year, but given Elliott averaged almost 109 yards-per-game rushing as a rookie, while Saquon barely managed over 81 yards-per-game in his rookie campaign (even with the big-plays), I don't think it's a comparison that serves any purpose in 'this' debate --which is about how each back performed as rushers LAST. SEASON.

Try to keep your eye on the ball, kid.

 

[aria]

My analysis had nothing to do with Zeke's rookie season. Do you know what the definition of a straw-man argument is?




Neither. The Giants o-line overall was ranked in the bottom-half of the league (PFF has them @ 21 overall), but that figure is largely based upon their subpar pass-blocking --which they did genuinely struggle with. Evaluated purely as a run-blocking unit, PFF ranks them at 14 and Dallas @ 18.

I'm sure you could find other sources with different rankings. But I think it's fair to say that in 2018 each team's o-line was fairly middle-of-the-pack at run-blocking and I've said since response #1 in this thread that I consider it ostensibly a push.

Zeke unquestionably had the better o-line in his rookie year, but given Elliott averaged almost 109 yards-per-game rushing as a rookie, while Saquon barely managed over 81 yards-per-game in his rookie campaign (even with the big-plays), I don't think it's a comparison that serves any purpose in 'this' debate --which is about how each back performed as rushers LAST. SEASON.

Try to keep your eye on the ball, kid.

So you completely ignored my link that showed a much bigger disparity between O lines, specifically with regards to rushing, and went with PFF? The same PFF that had Zeke ranked 30th of all RB’s? Lol, ok, I’ll go with that!

https://cowboyswire.usatoday.com/20...el-elliott-pff-2018-grade-football-outsiders/

So again, you bring up total yards but not yards per carry. Barkley had .1 yard less per carry his rookie year than Zeke’s rookie year and while that may be misleading I think the difference in O lines both of them had is very significant to their overall performance and shouldn’t be ignored when talking about who is better. Comparing both their rookie years, since it’s the only indicator we currently have for Barkley, is better and more fair measuring stick when talking about the future success.

There’s not a snowball’s chance in hell that if the roles were reversed and Barkley was a Cowboy then this many people wouldn’t be taking the O line and all his other record breaking stats into consideration. How many times have you read “Zeke is the best back in the league because he won the rushing record” with no mention of ypc or how he lead the league in fumbles or how he carried the ball more than every other back both years he won it?

Now Barkley breaks several team and league records set by HOF’ers by a much inferior O line than what Zeke had and not one person, maybe two, other than myself even refuses to acknowledge that. Better speed, better at holding on to the ball, better vision and catcher IMO...none of what makes a complete back is even mentioned. Just that his ypc was skewed from breaking a few long runs due to his speed, vision, strength and moves because he had a worse O line.

 

[PoetTree]

Now Barkley breaks several team and league records set by HOF’ers by a much inferior O line than what Zeke had and not one person, maybe two, other than myself even refuses to acknowledge that. Better speed, better at holding on to the ball, better vision and catcher IMO...none of what makes a complete back is even mentioned. Just that his ypc was skewed from breaking a few long runs due to his speed, vision, strength and moves because he had a worse O line.

Aside from a few big-plays, Barkley was underwhelming as a rusher on 94% of his 2018 carries. None of this specific analysis had anything to do with his receiving stats or his potential as an NFL player. It was a determination that, as of right now, Barkley is not on Zeke's level as an every-down professional runner.

The stats bear that out pretty distinctly, not only last year, but college as well.

I'm out. But feel free to congratulate yourself again...

 

[Super_Kazuya]

Aside from a few big-plays, Barkley was underwhelming as a rusher on 94% of his 2018 carries. None of this specific analysis had anything to do with his receiving stats or his potential as an NFL player. It was a determination that, as of right now, Barkley is not on Zeke's level as an every-down professional runner.

The stats bear that out pretty distinctly, not only last year, but college as well.

I'm out. But feel free to congratulate yourself again...

None of the biased statistics and cherry picking you did proved anything. You chose which runs to cut, you chose what a “big play” was, and you chose what the standard was for being an “every-down professional runner” (whatever that means). You never provided any rationale for any of it.
Congratulations on your sound thrashing at the hands of common sense.

 

[aria]

Aside from a few big-plays, Barkley was underwhelming as a rusher on 94% of his 2018 carries. None of this specific analysis had anything to do with his receiving stats or his potential as an NFL player. It was a determination that, as of right now, Barkley is not on Zeke's level as an every-down professional runner.

The stats bear that out pretty distinctly, not only last year, but college as well.

I'm out. But feel free to congratulate yourself again...

You’ve said you’re out before, you sound like a broken record. Stats also say Barkley had no fumbles, more receptions, more yards per reception, more overall yards, better ypc and is faster hence making him the better overall RB.

Stats are fun, aren’t they? Have a great weekend!

 

[HungryLion]

Being in the position, of being a Penn State alumnus, and thus, Penn State fan. While Simultaneously being a huge Cowboys fan. I gotta say I find it a little humorous on how dead set some people are, on trying to argue and prove that Saquon is a better RB than Zeke.

 

[G2]

When Barkley has 3 seasons like Elliott had, I'll be more than happy to give him the title. I seriously think there are a small VERY vocal few who have a boner to discredit anything Dallas does.

 

[InTheZone]

people that underrate Zeke and say Barkley is best, please walk out the door now lol

btw our line was so bum that Dak had a down year (not my words) but Zeke had an up year...

 

[aria]

What I find humorous is how so many people use stats to prove how good Dak really is, or use the O line as an excuse for why Dak or Zeke didn’t do well but when it comes to Zeke being the best the only stat that they use is total rushing yards. No mention of the difference in O lines, no mention of total yards, no mention of receiving yards, no mention fumbles, no mention about the all time LEAGUE records he set, no mention of the several other stats he beat Zeke at...nothing, just total rushing yards and discrediting his ypc due to breaking long runs behind a bad O line.

Yes, I do believe he needs more time to prove himself better than Zeke CAREER wise but based on the one year sample we have I would say he’s currently better by a small margin and I think with a slightly improved Giants O line he will only be better barring any injuries.

What cracks me up the most is the people who say it’s not even close. Such blind homerism they can’t even acknowledge a rival RB being close to Zeke. That’s hilarious.

 

[G2]

What I find humorous is how so many people use stats to prove how good Dak really is, or use the O line as an excuse for why Dak or Zeke didn’t do well but when it comes to Zeke being the best the only stat that they use is total rushing yards. No mention of the difference in O lines, no mention of total yards, no mention of receiving yards, no mention fumbles, no mention about the all time LEAGUE records he set, no mention of the several other stats he beat Zeke at...nothing, just total rushing yards and discrediting his ypc due to breaking long runs behind a bad O line.

Yes, I do believe he needs more time to prove himself better than Zeke CAREER wise but based on the one year sample we have I would say he’s currently better by a small margin and I think with a slightly improved Giants O line he will only be better barring any injuries.

What cracks me up the most is the people who say it’s not even close. Such blind homerism they can’t even acknowledge a rival RB being close to Zeke. That’s hilarious.

Rinse and repeat.

 

[PoetTree]

What I find humorous is how so many people use stats to prove how good Dak really is, or use the O line as an excuse for why Dak or Zeke didn’t do well but when it comes to Zeke being the best the only stat that they use is total rushing yards. No mention of the difference in O lines, no mention of total yards, no mention of receiving yards, no mention fumbles, no mention about the all time LEAGUE records he set, no mention of the several other stats he beat Zeke at...nothing, just total rushing yards and discrediting his ypc due to breaking long runs behind a bad O line.

I think the problem is, honestly, that you're just sort of reading what you want, not what's being written, and responding to your own narrative. Naturally, this has you up-in-arms that no one seems to be taking your bait or participating in your own contextually skewed discussion. Because none of what you said "most people" are saying has anything to do with the conclusions of my missive.

What I suggested their respective performances in 2018 demonstrates is that, at this point in their careers, Barkley is the more "explosive" player, while Zeke is the more consistent, effective, and productive runner across the far broader number & circumstances of carries; and that aside from Saquon's explosive plays, he was actually fairly pedestrian last season across the vast percentage of his touches. The stats I broke down prove exactly that.

Furthermore, while I didn't post it here, I have previously done a similar analysis regarding their college stats & found an identical result; minus Barkley & Zeke's biggest single play --that is, the run which went for the most yardage-- Barkley's production drops off the map, yet Zeke's remains league-leading.

It was by breaking down their college stats I first developed the opinion that Saquon is a back who lives or dies off the big-play, but struggles to dominate consistently on the ground, to pick up the so-called dirty-yards (that his coach Pat Shurmur straight-up called him out for not producing last year, citing Barkley's "judgment" and "vision" as the reasons why), and that he appeared not to be the kind of back who ever really carried an offense's running game.

You're bringing a lot of different things to the table and trying to muddy my argument with your flailing factoids, but none of them have anything to do with whether or not Zeke is --as I state in my original post-- the best guy to just turn around & hand the ball to in the league.

At this point in time, I believe he is.

Remember, not only did he out-rush Saquon by 127-yards last year, but he did so while playing in one fewer game --as Dallas sat Zeke in week 16 because we already had the NFC East locked up and a playoff berth secured.

Again, we're just talking about who demonstrated themselves to be the better, more consistent, more effective runner last season; and the statistics prove that Ezekiel Elliott is that guy.

Across 94% of his carries, Saquon Barkley averaged 3.19 yards-per-carry.

In case you didn't know: that's not good by NFL standards.

On over 95% of Elliott's runs (minus his big-plays) Zeke averaged 4.14 YPC.

The average yards-per-carry for a starting running back in the NFL is 4.2 --which represents the minimum standard for "good" as a professional halfback. As you can see, even subtracting Zeke's longest, most explosive runs from each game he still almost hits the NFL average for yards-per-carry.

Meanwhile, Barkley is more than a full yard-per-carry behind that average on the vast bulk of his carries...

On all but (literally) 16 runs of the season, Zeke outperformed Saquon Barkley.

Hence, I believe Elliott is currently the most consistent, effective, productive runner across the far broader number & circumstances of touches, which has been my only argument all along.

You keep wanting to spout off about fumbles and catches and total yards (which Barkley only eclipsed Zeke in because he sat the last game of the season), and are ignoring the premise outlaid by my missive & the facts which substantiate it.

I think I'll do you a favor & post that analysis of their college stats I did before last season, as it should help you see that the results I've outlined here are not an anomaly but who Saquon has always been.

Happy reading.

 

[kskboys]

Rinse and repeat.

Yeah, that's why I stepped out. Both are good, might be great.

 

[Jake]

14 pages arguing about nothing...bring on training camp.