SC Pass Defenses

[MossBurner]

Again, for whoever said we wished Newman had a rookie year like Carlos Rogers had...



From AdamJT13...

Comments Commander fans?

Terrence Newman is good. Stats for DBs suck.

 

[Vintage]

Terrence Newman is good. Stats for DBs suck.

I think completion percentage allowed is more important than INTs. What does it matter if you get 8 INTs if you allow 70% completion rate?

I think yards given up matter more than tackles. Who cares if you can rack up tackles by allowing 15 yard completions and continue to make tackles? That's not good CB play.

Seems to me, being a good CB, you would allow a low percentage of passes completed for low yardage totals and low TD totals.

 

[superpunk]

Henry and Glenn got older.

And the Skins players got younger, right?

 

[Gamebreaker]

I think completion percentage allowed is more important than INTs. What does it matter if you get 8 INTs if you allow 70% completion rate?

I think yards given up matter more than tackles. Who cares if you can rack up tackles by allowing 15 yard completions and continue to make tackles? That's not good CB play.

Seems to me, being a good CB, you would allow a low percentage of passes completed for low yardage totals and low TD totals.

That is exactly what I was saying. Statistics like that aren't readily available like the usual statistics you'll find at espn or nfl.com, and they're more accurate in analyzing how good a cornerback really is.

 

[Vintage]

That is exactly what I was saying. Statistics like that aren't readily available like the usual statistics you'll find at espn or nfl.com, and they're more accurate in analyzing how good a cornerback really is.

I thought you were saying that using stats like those suck.

My bad.

And I agree with you, FWIW.

 

[Gamebreaker]

I thought you were saying that using stats like those suck.

My bad.

And I agree with you, FWIW.

Nah, if you read a page back, I was giving reasons why tackles and interceptions can be percieved one way and really be another. Like a corner having more tackles than another could be percieved as being better in run support. Yet if someone actually watched all the games, he could've just been beat a whole lot more and made the tackle after the completion.

A completion percentage rate would be a more valuable statistic than tackles, interceptions, or passes defensed. Those other three stats don't tell the whole story, there is no way of getting around a completion percentage. It's about as objective as it gets.

 

[AmericasTeam31]

Nah, if you read a page back, I was giving reasons why tackles and interceptions can be percieved one way and really be another. Like a corner having more tackles than another could be percieved as being better in run support. Yet if someone actually watched all the games, he could've just been beat a whole lot more and made the tackle after the completion.

A completion percentage rate would be a more valuable statistic than tackles, interceptions, or passes defensed. Those other three stats don't tell the whole story, there is no way of getting around a completion percentage. It's about as objective as it gets.

It's been given in Newman's case and you still ignore it and chose not to comment on it...

 

[AmericasTeam31]

Posted on 12/30/05 by Awakened.....

Player--------------Att - Com - Yds - TD - Def -

Terence Newman-----77 - 33 --- 382 -- 1 -- 17 --

Anthony Henry-------76 - 39 --- 579 -- 3 -- 14 --

Aaron Glenn----------68 - 24 --- 444 -- 4 -- 13 --

Roy Williams----------46 - 29 --- 482 -- 4 -- 10 --

Keith Davis-----------28 - 14 --- 310 -- 3 -- 3 --

Jacques Reeves-------11 - 4 ---- 76 --- 1 -- 4 --

Willie Pile-------------10 - 5 --- 120 --- 1 -- 0 --

 

[AmericasTeam31]

http://dallascowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45233&highlight=newman

 

[Gamebreaker]

It's been given in Newman's case and you still ignore it and chose not to comment on it...

I never even mentioned Newman in this thread. I was talking Carlos Rogers, Pacman Jones, and the stats people were comparing THEM with. What does that have to do with Newman? I never said Rogers had a better rookie season than him. Get your facts straight.

 

[AmericasTeam31]

I never even mentioned Newman in this thread. I was talking Carlos Rogers, Pacman Jones, and the stats people were comparing THEM with. What does that have to do with Newman? I never said Rogers had a better rookie season than him. Get your facts straight.

I wasn't referring to you specifically. I was using your post requesting different stats for comparing db's as a reference to ALL the skins fans who were tooting Springs and Rogers horns as the better db's.

I don't really care about Rogers' stats vs. anyone else from another team. That has no bearing on this discussion about the pass defenses of Wash. vs Dallas... Get those facts straight...:starspin

 

[Gamebreaker]

I don't really care about Rogers' stats vs. anyone else from another team. That has no bearing on this discussion about the pass defenses of Wash. vs Dallas... Get those facts straight...:starspin

The quote function is to reply to a specific statement, if you want to talk pass defenses of Skins vs. Cowboys than quote somebody else. But chances that you really weren't talking to me specifically are about as likely as a plastic surgeon saying no to Jerry Jones. :

 

[AmericasTeam31]

So neither of our starting corners, including Springs, has ever come close to Terrence Newman? Spare me.

Most of the stats I've seen in this thread don't really show how well a corner plays his position. Tackles is a subjective stat for cornerbacks, the corner could've either been a real force in run support or burnt a whole lot by his man and made alot of tackles after the catch. Interceptions are NEVER a good indicator of who's good or not, especially if a cornerback isn't being tested often. For years I've wished the NFL or other media outlets would choose a new way of collecting stats on defensive backs.

Rogers didn't start from the beginning the same way any rookie doesn't start for Gregg Williams' defense. When he did play, he rarely gave up big plays and was solid in run support. I've seen rookie corners play alot worse. I have never seen or heard of any media outlet in DC calling Rogers "Toast". If they did, I have no idea what games they were watching, or if they were getting Rogers confused with Walt Harris.

I'm not going to back up the assertion that Rogers was the best rookie corner last season. I didn't watch very much of the other rookie corners. I do recall hearing rumors of the Titans coaching staff not being impressed with Pacman Jones, but the best way to know how good a corner is to actually watch the majority of their games. Since there is never a stat that shows how much a corner got beat. Unless someone actually watched the majority of the games both corners performed in, I don't see how anyone can make any assertions for one or the other.

If I was referring to you specifically, I guess I could point out the fact that you did refer to Newman, and did state that "normal" stats don't measure the effectiveness of a DB. While I agree with that it is a good spin to say you were talking only about Rogers vs Jones... So since you were interested in the more advanced stats, I'd love to hear your comments on them. Or you can add another spin if you'd like...

 

[illone]

2 was way high for the Skins. But, it's just a paper ranking. That's why the game is played on the field.

 

[Gamebreaker]

If I was referring to you specifically, I guess I could point out the fact that you did refer to Newman, and did state that "normal" stats don't measure the effectiveness of a DB. While I agree with that it is a good spin to say you were talking only about Rogers vs Jones... So since you were interested in the more advanced stats, I'd love to hear your comments on them. Or you can add another spin if you'd like...

OK, spin doctor. I made a passing comment about Newman. That was he extent of my involvement in that conversation. Regardless, it was not enough to warrant you quoting A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT POST on a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TOPIC to talk about it. Spin, spin, spin away brother!

I've said all I need to say on advanced stats. Read the rest of my posts in this thread, maybe this time you'll at least know what people are talking about before you reply to them with the wrong topic. But I will say, the stats you posted were exactly what I was saying should be the norm for cornerbacks.

 

[AmericasTeam31]

Hell, extrapolated out, Rogers didn't even come close to Newman's "terrible" second season, while Newman was playing on one of the most terrible defenses I've ever seen.

Maybe if you're lucky, next year ONE of your two supposedly rock-solid corners will approach Newman's level of productive consistency.

But I doubt it - since neither of them have ever even come close.

This is the quote you used in your post... Where does that pertain to anything other than Newman and his standing as the best corner on the two teams....? It says nothing of Jones... Nothing about anything but Newman vs. Rogers... You can try to play it off anyway you want to, bottom line is as soon as the stats are in front of you (and the other Skins fans) the rest of them disappear, and you change topics... Go ahead and spin away, ignore the FACTS you yourself requested... It's pointless to come in here if you aren't willing to face the music...

 

[superpunk]

 

[hailvictory]

um, yeah....so the media, let alone salisbury and golic made these rankings, so do i care? no. i'll start bragging about the pass d hopefully when the season starts...

 

[Gamebreaker]

This is the quote you used in your post... Where does that pertain to anything other than Newman and his standing as the best corner on the two teams....? It says nothing of Jones... Nothing about anything but Newman vs. Rogers... You can try to play it off anyway you want to, bottom line is as soon as the stats are in front of you (and the other Skins fans) the rest of them disappear, and you change topics... Go ahead and spin away, ignore the FACTS you yourself requested... It's pointless to come in here if you aren't willing to face the music...

More spinning.

I quoted him and replied to one sentence in his whole post. Newman wasn't mentioned for the rest of it. Peplaw brought up Pacman Jones, my post was more about the whole subject of using better statistics than anything about Newman.

I did not request statistics on Newman, what are you talking about? I never made any comparisons between Rogers and Newman, more crap you've made up. I only scoofed at the silly notion that Newman is somehow head and shoulders better than both our starting corners. Where is the comparison? Furthermore, since you think you've somehow actually made a point, if you're going to compare two players WHY are you only providing the required stats from ONE PLAYER. That proves nothing.

I also said only people who've actually watched the majority of the games a corner plays in could really be able to make true comparisons. Are you going to tell me I requested everyone to go and watch game film?? This is stupid. You jumping down my throat over nothing is stupid. Spin away, Spin Doctor.

 

[superpunk]

^^^^Commanders fans?

Or the greatest band of all time?