Shawn Andrews is battling depression (or not?)

[AbeBeta]

just so people know, I am in no way a license clinical psychologist, but I do research and am studying for it. The biggest problems I see with drugs, especially SSRI, is it is used as a quick fix me. You will never get better unless you try to deal with the underlying causes/stressors/problems.

Actually, believe it or not, SSRIs treat A LOT of problems, not just depression. so to say depression is mainly a chemical imbalance is in my opinion false, since even "normal" people who take them feel better. Sure, I do think some clinically depressed people definitely may have MORE imbalances - less inhibitors, less receptors for serotonin, less serotonin, etc. but to use drugs as the only treatment, I don't think people are truly getting better, just relieved during the time they are taking the drugs. YESSS, absolutely, research shows far and above drugs alone is better than say talk therapy or cognitive-behavioral therapy alone, but the MOST effective is doing all three, which unfortunately is quite costly and many insurance don't cover them all...

But you need to admit right here that even though you are studying these issues that your view depression is not resultant from a chemical imbalance is clearly not a consensus view .

 

[VietCowboy]

And with a major depression either the drugs work or you stay depressed and get worse and worse. People with depression of that sort have far shorter lives - be it from suicide or issues that come with the disease. Both are physical issues - it is clear that you refuse to acknowledge that.

You can "highly doubt" he is clinically depressed but it is moronic attitudes that claim that folks need to suck it up that lead people to never seek help for a DISEASE that can be treated.

And again, unless you are a professional, you should keep your arm chair diagnoses to yourself.

without more symptoms indicated, we cannot tell what he has, but in order for it to be a diagnosis of some type of clinical depression (major, dysthymic, etc) it needs to really disrupt his daily life, causes significant distress, or somehow impair him from living his daily life (social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning).

 

[djtavo]

if we get depressed about that, are we just "feeding" the problem?

OMG hahahahaha good one! lol

 

[iceberg]

nice thing to joke about.wow.

what else can i do with it?

Depression? How do you know that I don't? Awful lot of assuming going on here.

who said i said whether you do or don't. i'm only saying if you do you likely have a different perspective than someone who doesn't.

now, who's ASSuming what?

 

[VietCowboy]

But you need to admit right here that even though you are studying these issues that your view depression is not resultant from a chemical imbalance is clearly not a consensus view .

I never said it wasn't, because I DO BELIEVE THERE IS SOMETHING THERE for SOME people who are diagnosed to be different from "NORMAL" people. Like I said, they could have less receptors than normal, or that have less "feel-good" molecules produced, not efficient, etc. It could be genetics, environmental, individual differences, other. However, I do not believe that medication ALONE (i.e. to treat chemical imbalance) can help cure people with depression because at least 50% end up having at least another episode in the future.

 

[bbgun]

I had no idea this board was rife with depression experts.

 

[VietCowboy]

one of my biggest problems with the chemical imbalance causes depression is that the studies generally have only looked at people depressed and then look at their chemical imbalance. I want to see a study that looks at a wider net of people (i.e. follow people who have chemical imbalances as a child and see if they ALL have depression later on). I can surely believe that chemical imbalance can increase the risk of people to get depression, but I am not sure I can swallow that chemical imbalance CAUSES depression. It is just like people who become criminals and then looking back and seeing that they had conduct disorder as kids.

Also, depression isn't as prevalent outside the U.S. (very low rates in Asian countries for example due to the HUGE taboo of mental disorders), which is very suspicious to me to think that if depression is caused by chemical imbalance then why is chemical imbalance concentrated in the U.S.

 

[djtavo]

I had no idea this board was rife with depression experts.

That shows you even Dr. Phil is a Cowboys Fan

 

[bbgun]

That shows you even Dr. Phil is a Cowboys Fan

Either that or there's a lot of depressed people around here.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Also, depression isn't as prevalent outside the U.S. (very low rates in Asian countries for example due to the HUGE taboo of mental disorders), which is very suspicious to me to think that if depression is caused by chemical imbalance then why is chemical imbalance concentrated in the U.S.

Don't you think it's more likely that, because of the stigma you mention, people in those cultures simply suffer in silence and don't come forward with their feelings?

I know what you're saying about questioning the cause of the imbalance. But in the end, it doesn't matter how the chemical imbalance comes about. If drugs can keep someone from living in despair and killing him- or herself, they need to be used.

 

[VietCowboy]

Don't you think it's more likely that, because of the stigma you mention, people in those cultures simply suffer in silence and don't come forward with their feelings?

I know what you're saying about questioning the cause of the imbalance. But in the end, it doesn't matter how the chemical imbalance comes about. If drugs can keep someone from living in despair and killing him- or herself, they need to be used.

not really, there is neurasthenia and somatization. It would be interesting to look at fMRI's of the Thai people who practice Buddhism that actually embrace a lot of the symptoms that we would attribute to depression. They don't see anything wrong with feeling despair and down-hearted and that it is just a part of their life and teachings.

Also, I'm not disagreeing to drugs. I just feel that it is often used as a quick fixer upper due to time, money, and limited resources. Yes, it is effective, but I don't think it should be used alone nor do I think it cures people.

 

[PosterChild]

I'm not going back and forth about this I assure you, BUT the theory of a "chemical imbalance" was developed years(the 60's) ago to explain and lay out the course for treating clinical depression. It's only within the last few yrs or so as study after study has shown that SSRI drugs are no better than placebos in the vast majority of people, and that comparative cognitive therapies vs drug treatment demonstrate that CT is the superior long term intervention. I've been around the pharmaceutical industry and practice of medicine my entire life. To this day I'm in the medical field, and several of my relatives are either physicians or nurses. I own drug stock-- I follow studies and the very latest research in this industry, I read every journal I get my eyes on. Pharmaceuticals are working on better-targeted drugs because current drugs are largely ineffective. The dated,simplistic theory of a "chemical imbalance," which we need only restore to harmony, is now an obsolete model of depression. That is all. Go Cowboys!

 

[Kilyin]

And again, unless you are a professional, you should keep your arm chair diagnoses to yourself.

Follow your own advice... and in case you haven't noticed, your straw man has pretty much been obliterated.

 

[VietCowboy]

I'm not going back and forth about this I assure you, BUT the theory of a "chemical imbalance" was developed years(the 60's) ago to explain and lay out the course for treating clinical depression. It's only within the last few yrs or so as study after study has shown that SSRI drugs are no better than placebos in the vast majority of people, and that comparative cognitive therapies vs drug treatment demonstrate that CT is the superior long term intervention. I've been around the pharmaceutical industry and practice of medicine my entire life. To this day I'm in the medical field, and several of my relatives are either physicians or nurses. I own drug stock-- I follow studies and the very latest research in this industry, I read every journal I get my eyes on. Pharmaceuticals are working on better-targeted drugs because current drugs are largely ineffective. The dated,simplistic theory of a "chemical imbalance," which we need only restore to harmony, is now an obsolete model of depression. That is all. Go Cowboys!

hm..interesting, the studies I have read with SSRI's question that its effect is too wide-spread. Arguments that neurasthenia and depression are the same (which it is not) use the fact that SSRI's also treat neurasthenia, but many counter back that SSRI's also help in many other mental disorders as well. Can you PM me some of the studies/references you've found that say SSRI's are no better than placebo? Thanks!

 

[monkey]

without more symptoms indicated, we cannot tell what he has, but in order for it to be a diagnosis of some type of clinical depression (major, dysthymic, etc) it needs to really disrupt his daily life, causes significant distress, or somehow impair him from living his daily life (social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning).

That's the point that AbeBeta appeared to making. He wasn't trying to say that Andrews did or didn't have depression, while the person he was responding sounded convinced that Andrews did not have it. If it has been making him unable to go to work, even when costing him $15K a day, that would be impairing imo. However, we still don't know about the other criteria.

not really, there is neurasthenia and somatization. It would be interesting to look at fMRI's of the Thai people who practice Buddhism that actually embrace a lot of the symptoms that we would attribute to depression. They don't see anything wrong with feeling despair and down-hearted and that it is just a part of their life and teachings.

That still doesn't address the point of under-reporting due to societal stigma or other issues (especially since feeling despair and being down-hearted are only two of the five minimum criteria for a Major Depressive Episode). It's like the prevalance rate of depression is twice as high in females as it it is males, but males historically are the much less likely to utilize psychiatric services than women. Which could be a contributing factor (or the factor) for the difference in prevalence.

Also, I'm not disagreeing to drugs. I just feel that it is often used as a quick fixer upper due to time, money, and limited resources. Yes, it is effective, but I don't think it should be used alone nor do I think it cures people.

Unfortunately, too much of the time that can be the case. However, the severe cases of depression are extremely difficult if not impossible to treat without some form of medication to address the chemical imbalance.


P.S. Not a full psychologist yet either, just a few steps away from being one and I spend my much of my week diagnosing inmates.

 

[VietCowboy]

yes, it is true Asians don't generally go to doctors for depression (I have several theories as to why mental disorders are severely under or misdiagnosed in Asians beyond the taboo - i.e. monism, group harmony) but I still believe the actual rate of depression is lower than the U.S. due to cultural beliefs/influences. Maybe it is the fact that I study somatization in Asians and believe that the pathway for stress in asian tends to be somatizating rather than depressing (while for Caucasians, that can be the opposite). that is my belief, and I hope as I continue studying it, I can back it up. lol.

p.s. I am about 4-6 years before I even get to post-doc, which is before I even whiff being licensed as a clinical psychologist.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

I've never battled the kind of depression that this thread would be talking about. I've been depressed about something before but my depression on something has always been something that within a day, at the most, I'd be fine. This kind of depression, if this is what he's got, is something totally different and it's not something a person can help and it absolutely can be extremely difficult to live with.

It's not an issue I've ever personally had but I've known a few people who've battled this issue.

 

[monkey]

Maybe it is the fact that I study somatization in Asians and believe that the pathway for stress in asian tends to be somatizating rather than depressing (while for Caucasians, that can be the opposite). that is my belief, and I hope as I continue studying it, I can back it up. lol.

Good luck in that, just be mindful of confirmation biases. Sounds like have got some ambitious research ideas, cross-cultural clinical samples would be a nightmare. From what I recall from a colloqium from a geriatric researcher was that elderly in America also generally somatize their depression and much of depression is missed as just physical complaints.

p.s. I am about 4-6 years before I even get to post-doc, which is before I even whiff being licensed as a clinical psychologist.

Sounds like it is still pretty early in the ballgame for you then. It is quite unfortunate IMO, that there is generally little understanding of how long it actually takes on to be a psychologist when applying for grad school. And we are generally treated as indentured servants for many years until one can get a license. The system needs to be changed in that regard, but I'm sure change will come slowly.

But take heart, my experience is that most of the time all that is needed to make it is perseverance once you are actually in a program. Also, as I understand it, the hours from a post-doc (if you even need one for your career path) count toward licensure.

 

[Cowboy Bebop]

It is amazing how many of you know everything about ssri's and mao inhibitors.

It is so strange because 90% of what you people are saying has gone against everything I have studied and learned about mental illness and the drugs used.

Simply put you cant just "suck it up", you can not just ween off the drugs because you are taking psycho therapy/cbt/dbt. A chemical inbalance is not something that is fixed by talking, the drug is needed to correct it. And saying a study shows "people without depression feel better while taking ssri's" (without showing the study btw) does not discount people with an imbalance from needing it. There is no way to use that to draw a conclusion of pills being temporary.

In all actuality people who have not suffered from or are suffering from clinical depression really have no business talking about it. And no I do not mean that bout with the blues you soldiered through for an ENTIRE week when you didn't get that promotion at work.

 

[juck]

It is amazing how many of you know everything about ssri's and mao inhibitors.

It is so strange because 90% of what you people are saying has gone against everything I have studied and learned about mental illness and the drugs used.

Simply put you cant just "suck it up", you can not just ween off the drugs because you are taking psycho therapy/cbt/dbt. A chemical inbalance is not something that is fixed by talking, the drug is needed to correct it. And saying a study shows "people without depression feel better while taking ssri's" (without showing the study btw) does not discount people with an imbalance from needing it. There is no way to use that to draw a conclusion of pills being temporary.

In all actuality people who have not suffered from or are suffering from clinical depression really have no business talking about it. And no I do not mean that bout with the blues you soldiered through for an ENTIRE week when you didn't get that promotion at work.

Very true I myself have had bouts that lasted years,and with meds and exercise i have helped myself tremendously.I will say that my case is definitely chemical because my mom also has had it,although ours tend to be more on the anxiety side.A low dose ssri and consistent lifting and running has really helped my life so much.