Sick of RGIII

[Sonny#9]

Shanahan wasn't attacking down the field more with Grossman, Rex was forcing it down the field while Griffin protected the ball better last year. Rex threw 23 passes longer than 30 yards, 381 yards, 1 TD and 7 INTs. Griffin threw 17 passes longer than 30 yards, for 267 yards, 4 TDs and 0 INTs. Six more passes and a -10 turnover differential.

I actually watched the games, not just used spin the stats to favor my argument. Griffin's deep passes were right on the money. Beck was afraid to throw a pass five yards beyond the line of scrimmage, and Rex was throwing ducks to WRs in triple coverage. If you didn't watch then don't assume you know what happened.

Forget it -- he is going to spin anything you say and reframe his argument time and time again to attempt to prove the Griffin is overrated. The crux of his arguments was "Rex Grossman wasn't that bad!" Which is laughable. No one can take that argument seriously.

 

[CF74]

Oh right, a position change for a 31-year old, now-undersized DE. I don't see a problem at all. Plus, he still has to contend with big Trent Williams.

-Yawn.. You're boring me kid...

 

[Blackspider214]

If you judge whether a QB is a "winner" strictly off their playoff record Peyton Manning with his 9-11 playoff record wouldn't be considered a "winner."

Uhhh no. Peyton Manning has been to 2 Super Bowls and won 1 of them. 3 AFC title game appearances. Won 2 of those. Hardly not a "winner". You missed the point. It's not about the losing record in the playoffs. It's the fact that RG3 has played only one year and is 0-1 in the playoffs. He's not a "winner" yet. People need to tap the brakes.

 

[Sonny#9]

-Yawn.. You're boring me kid...

Fine...dispute it.

I will, however, give you ample credit for using the proper contraction "you're."

 

[khiladi]

Shanahan wasn't attacking down the field more with Grossman, Rex was forcing it down the field while Griffin protected the ball better last year. Rex threw 23 passes longer than 30 yards, 381 yards, 1 TD and 7 INTs. Griffin threw 17 passes longer than 30 yards, for 267 yards, 4 TDs and 0 INTs. Six more passes and a -10 turnover differential.

I actually watched the games, not just used spin the stats to favor my argument. Griffin's deep passes were right on the money. Beck was afraid to throw a pass five yards beyond the line of scrimmage, and Rex was throwing ducks to WRs in triple coverage. If you didn't watch then don't assume you know what happened.

And RG threw the ball over sixty times more that RG3 in 2 less gas of the regular season and got about the same yardage, meaning Shanny wasn't attacking downfield with RG3 like he was with RG. Thus, it is only logical his INTs would go up. Sorry, you failed to address the point:

And RG threw the ball over sixty times more that RG3 in 2 less gas of the regular season and got about the same yardage, meaning Shanny wasn't attacking downfield with RG3 like he was with RG. Thus, it is only logical his INTs would go up.

Are you also going to argue that the Commanders were better off with Beck? I fail to see how any of you deal with this point. The Commanders were leading the division at 3-2 and they benched Grossman, for the bum Beck. 5-11 doesn't accurately take into account te utterly stupid decision by Shanny to bench RG3 in favor of Beck. In fact, he was getting a lot of pushto bench RG3 from many fans for Beck. That is reality. I live in DC and I know just as muc as any Commanders homer about what happened that season.

 

[khiladi]

As opposed to RG3, who was the epitome of health in that game and didn't have any off-season surgery whatsoever lol...

The comments were about Ware supposedy not doing anything in that game. So if one argues that RG3 wasn't healthy, well guess what, either was Ware. Not only that, our starting LB core was out as well.

 

[KJJ]

Uhhh no. Peyton Manning has been to 2 Super Bowls and won 1 of them. 3 AFC title game appearances. Won 2 of those. Hardly not a "winner". You missed the point. It's not about the losing record in the playoffs. It's the fact that RG3 has played only one year and is 0-1 in the playoffs. He's not a "winner" yet. People need to tap the brakes.

Tim Tebow was called a "winner" before he ever took a snap in the NFL due to his National Championship win at Florida, his Heisman award and his leadership abilities. He made a huge name for himself due mostly to his intangibles that inspired a lot of people. He captivated the entire NFL world 2 years ago finding ways to win games in the most unorthodox way we've ever seen an NFL QB win games. He's a highly inaccurate passer with a quirky throwing motion and is only 8-6 as a starting NFL QB but was called a "winner." He's still one of the most talked about players in the game despite doing nothing last year and being currently out of work. NFL teams don't use multiple #1 picks and then some mortgaging their future on a college QB if they're not considered a "winner." RG3 accomplished enough before he ever reached the NFL to be considered a "winner." If being a "winner" is all about NFL championships then Dan Marino and Dan Fouts wouldn't be considered winners. Marino had mixed playoff success he was 8-10 and never won a SB.

Fouts was 3-4 in the playoffs and he never even reached the SB. Peyton Manning has lost more playoff games than he's won and is batting 500 in the SB. The year Peyton won his only SB his TD to turnover ratio was 3-7 during the postseason and his passer rating was only 70.5. To put that in perspective Trent Dilfer had a TD to turnover ratio of 3-1 and a passer rating of 83.7 during the postseason the year he won his SB and Brad Johnson had a TD to turnover ratio of 5-3 and a passer rating of 79.9 during the postseason the year he won his SB. Peyton Manning is the QB he is today mostly due to his accomplishments during the regular season. He has a record 4 MVP awards and has won a lot of regular season games and division titles. He's put up some incredible numbers in the regular season and last night added a record 7 TD passes in one game to his resume. Some consider him the greatest QB of all-time due to his regular season performances and all the wins he has.

You take away his regular season accomplishments and he wouldn't be considered the QB he is today. The regular season has to count for something it's the largest body of work a QB has on their resume and it's the biggest determining factor in a QB being voted into the HOF. RG3 has won a Heisman and an NFL rookie of the year award in back to back seasons. Those awards single out the player that had the greatest impact on their teams success. RG3 won an elimination game on one leg last season that led Washington to their first division title in 13 years. Had he been healthy Washington would have beaten Seattle in the playoffs. RG3 sucked it up and played hurt in several games last season. He sacrificed his body to make plays and based off what he's accomplished so far in his football career I consider him a "winner." Assuming you're a Cowboys fan do you consider Romo a winner?

 

[khiladi]

Reggie Wayne is an excellent receiver which is why Indy kept him and let Garcon walk. Garcon wasn't even in the top 10 WR free agents on the market the best I could find was 11th on the list below and he was much further down the list than that on other free agent WR rankings. Gacon is a decent receiver nothing more than that and his career numbers back it up. Like I mentioned he never produced more 67 catches for 784 yards with Peyton Manning that says it all about him. Eric Decker wasn't the primary receiver in Denver but he put up a career high 84 catches for 1064 yards with Manning. In 2010 Jacob Tamme had the same 67 catches as Garcon and almost as many receiving yards.

If a receiver can't put up many yards and catches with Peyton Manning as their QB they're just another receiver. Laurent Robinson who only had one good season in Dallas and was terrible in JAX was rated ahead of Garcon. For what Washington paid Garcon he should have been the primary WR they were targeting. Grossman threw 6 int's in his last 2 games in 2011 before getting benched. He had passer ratings of 48.5 and 23.7 he was getting worse every week. He tossed 4 picks vs Philly only completing 9 passes to his own teammates which is why he got benched. When the bad Rex starts showing up you have to put him down for awhile. Shanahan was looking for a spark and tried Beck that's what teams do when they have a crappy QB situation.


http://BAN-INCOMING-IN-3-2-1/freeagents2012WR.php

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2012/fa/wr.html

You also forgot to mention the fact that Garcon played only 14 games that year, while Decker played a full season. As an aside, that year Wayne had 111 catches. The only time Garcon played a full season was in 2011, when Manning was hurt and he caught 70 passes. And Wayne had 75 receptions that year. Additionally, Garcon was the primary target with the Commanders.

In 2011, the last 2 games you are referring to as the 'reason' for benching the Commanders were 1-1. Against the Rams, the Commanders were up 17-0 going into the 4th, despite his 2 INTs (1 TD pass). The Commanders team also fumbled 3 times. I hardly call that a reason for benching RG. The Philly game, he had 4 INTs, but again, everybody knows that. The point was, they were 3-2 despite that. You don't look for a spark when your leading the division at 3-2. Agianst Miami, when RG came back they were well within the game 9-13 halfway into the 4th. He even had them in scoring range their final drive, which ended up in a missed field goal. But they were 3-5 by then. Against, the Cowboys he had a great game, and they were leading 24-17 going into the 4th. They missed a FG in OT. They then beat the Seahwks. And against the Jets, they were actually up 16-13 in the 4th.

They killed their season by benching RG. They killed their season insertin Jeff Beck who wasn't even making them competitive. That 5-11 would, most likely, not been 5-11 had RG stayed the starting QB. Coupled by the fact that the NFC East was just horrid, who actually knows where they cou have been. They even beat the division leader Giants at 7-7 who had't even guaranteed a playoff spot and ended up winning the SB...

 

[KJJ]

You also forgot to mention the fact that Garcon played only 14 games that year, while Decker played a full season. As an aside, that year Wayne had 111 catches. The only time Garcon played a full season was in 2011, when Manning was hurt and he caught 70 passes. And Wayne had 75 receptions that year. Additionally, Garcon was the primary target with the Commanders.

In 2011, the last 2 games you are referring to as the 'reason' for benching the Commanders were 1-1. Against the Rams, the Commanders were up 17-0 going into the 4th, despite his 2 INTs (1 TD pass). The Commanders team also fumbled 3 times. I hardly call that a reason for benching RG. The Philly game, he had 4 INTs, but again, everybody knows that. The point was, they were 3-2 despite that. You don't look for a spark when your leading the division at 3-2. Agianst Miami, when RG came back they were well within the game 9-13 halfway into the 4th. He even had them in scoring range their final drive, which ended up in a missed field goal. But they were 3-5 by then. Against, the Cowboys he had a great game, and they were leading 24-17 going into the 4th. They missed a FG in OT. They then beat the Seahwks. And against the Jets, they were actually up 16-13 in the 4th.

They killed their season by benching RG. They killed their season insertin Jeff Beck who wasn't even making them competitive. That 5-11 would, most likely, not been 5-11 had RG stayed the starting QB. Coupled by the fact that the NFC East was just horrid, who actually knows where they cou have been. They even beat the division leader Giants at 7-7 who had't even guaranteed a playoff spot and ended up winning the SB...

It makes no difference that Garcon only played 14 games like I said he's just another receiver. When I said he was well down the list of free agent WR's you said that was laughable. I'm sure you stopped laughing once I provided poof. For being the primary target he should have been more productive even in 14 games. I expect RG3's rushing totals to go down this season and his passing yards to go up so we'll see how productive Garcon is in 2013. As long as Washington had Grossman at QB they weren't going anywhere. He started 13 games in 2011 and was 5-8. Washington's QB situation is what killed their season which is why they gave up the farm for RG3.

 

[DanteEXT]

It makes no difference that Garcon only played 14 games like I said he's just another receiver. When I said he was well down the list of free agent WR's you said that was laughable. I'm sure you stopped laughing once I provided poof. For being the primary target he should have been more productive even in 14 games. I expect RG3's rushing totals to go down this season and his passing yards to go up so we'll see how productive Garcon is in 2013. As long as Washington had Grossman at QB they weren't going anywhere. He started 13 games in 2011 and was 5-8. Washington's QB situation is what killed their season which is why they gave up the farm for RG3.

Actually, it does matter if the player did not complete a full season when you are comparing his production to another player who did. Also, he wasn't the primary target in 2010 during those 14 games so I don't know where you are pulling that from.

In the first link you provided 3 of the first 10 were either tendered or franchised by their existing team.

Oh, here's one that has Garcon as the 5th: http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/top-10-wide-receivers-in-free-agency/?_r=0
What does that mean? Nothing... they are opinions and that is all. Sorry, but the fact is that your links are not "poof" of anything. Here, I'll grab a random website quote and treat as indisputable 100% fact like you: "Another Colts receiver that is expected to be available is Pierre Garcon, he was the best receiver in Indianapolis with Peyton Manning injured the entire season. Garcon stepped up and kept the Colts from being just the second 0-16 team in history." See, without Garcon the Colts would have been 0-16 in 2011.

 

[CF74]

Fine...dispute it.

I will, however, give you ample credit for using the proper contraction "you're."

I'll let Ware dispute it for me. He's 100% healthy THIS season and he's going to have more opportunities to do what he does best...

 

[Sonny#9]

I'll let Ware dispute it for me. He's 100% healthy THIS season and he's going to have more opportunities to do what he does best...

Yeah...get mauled by Williams and frozen by the read option.

 

[Rockport]

Actually, it does matter if the player did not complete a full season when you are comparing his production to another player who did. Also, he wasn't the primary target in 2010 during those 14 games so I don't know where you are pulling that from.

In the first link you provided 3 of the first 10 were either tendered or franchised by their existing team.

Oh, here's one that has Garcon as the 5th: http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/top-10-wide-receivers-in-free-agency/?_r=0
What does that mean? Nothing... they are opinions and that is all. Sorry, but the fact is that your links are not "poof" of anything. Here, I'll grab a random website quote and treat as indisputable 100% fact like you: "Another Colts receiver that is expected to be available is Pierre Garcon, he was the best receiver in Indianapolis with Peyton Manning injured the entire season. Garcon stepped up and kept the Colts from being just the second 0-16 team in history." See, without Garcon the Colts would have been 0-16 in 2011.

He always brings new things up in debates to confuse the issue. He does this when he's losing the arguments. Which is basically all the time.

 

[CF74]

Yeah...get mauled by Williams and frozen by the read option.

If Williams overpowers him (And at 6'5," 328 lbs its expected,) then he will use his speed to get around him after that fat tub of goo gets winded.

And he won't freeze up in the read, he will just level the QB and snap him like a pretzel..

DE's in a 4-3 don't have to worry about pass coverage, they just go straight for the QB and let the LB's and DB's shut down the rest of the field...

 

[KJJ]

Actually, it does matter if the player did not complete a full season when you are comparing his production to another player who did. Also, he wasn't the primary target in 2010 during those 14 games so I don't know where you are pulling that from.

In the first link you provided 3 of the first 10 were either tendered or franchised by their existing team.

Oh, here's one that has Garcon as the 5th: http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/top-10-wide-receivers-in-free-agency/?_r=0
What does that mean? Nothing... they are opinions and that is all. Sorry, but the fact is that your links are not "poof" of anything. Here, I'll grab a random website quote and treat as indisputable 100% fact like you: "Another Colts receiver that is expected to be available is Pierre Garcon, he was the best receiver in Indianapolis with Peyton Manning injured the entire season. Garcon stepped up and kept the Colts from being just the second 0-16 team in history." See, without Garcon the Colts would have been 0-16 in 2011.

You found one FA WR ranking that had Garcon 5th while most had him ranked outside the top 10. The consensus of all those rankings point to him being just another receiver. All rankings are based on opinion but Garcon's career numbers speak for themselves they're average. Neither Decker or Thomas ever sniffed 1000 yards until Manning showed up and they both had 1000 yard seasons in 2012. In 3 seasons with Peyton Manning as his QB Garcon only produced 1572 yards. As for the 2011 season if Garcon was all that valuable to the Colts he wouldn't have been allowed to walk after that season especially with a rookie QB taking over who needed WR threats. Even the Colts saw him as just another receiver.

 

[KJJ]

He always brings new things up in debates to confuse the issue. He does this when he's losing the arguments. Which is basically all the time.

I bring things up that can be proven they're called "facts" while you make things up. The most obvious sign of someone losing an argument is when they make things up and call people names.

 

[KJJ]

"Another Colts receiver that is expected to be available is Pierre Garcon, he was the best receiver in Indianapolis with Peyton Manning injured the entire season. Garcon stepped up and kept the Colts from being just the second 0-16 team in history." See, without Garcon the Colts would have been 0-16 in 2011.

If Garcon was the best receiver in Indy the Colts would have kept him and allowed Reggie Wayne to walk. Most of the free agent WR rankings had Wayne ranked #2 behind Vincent Jackson.

 

[KJJ]

"Another Colts receiver that is expected to be available is Pierre Garcon, he was the best receiver in Indianapolis with Peyton Manning injured the entire season. Garcon stepped up and kept the Colts from being just the second 0-16 team in history." See, without Garcon the Colts would have been 0-16 in 2011.

One other point Garcon is 27 and Reggie Wayne is 34 that further tells you what Indy thought of Garcon.

 

[DanteEXT]

If Garcon was the best receiver in Indy the Colts would have kept him and allowed Reggie Wayne to walk. Most of the free agent WR rankings had Wayne ranked #2 behind Vincent Jackson.

Yet inexplicably only 50% of the sites you linked to back up your claim. Personally, I only use "most" when it's more than half.

One other point Garcon is 27 and Reggie Wayne is 34 that further tells you what Indy thought of Garcon.

Wayne: 3 years, $17.5 million
Garcon: 5 years, $42.5 million
2012 Colts Dead Money: $38,790,072

Oh, and one other point. Wayne was the consolation prize in the FA sweepstakes. Indy had already lost Garcon to Washington.

 

[Sonny#9]

If Williams overpowers him (And at 6'5," 328 lbs its expected,) then he will use his speed to get around him after that fat tub of goo gets winded.

And he won't freeze up in the read, he will just level the QB and snap him like a pretzel..

DE's in a 4-3 don't have to worry about pass coverage, they just go straight for the QB and let the LB's and DB's shut down the rest of the field...

That must be why

If Williams overpowers him (And at 6'5," 328 lbs its expected,) then he will use his speed to get around him after that fat tub of goo gets winded.

And he won't freeze up in the read, he will just level the QB and snap him like a pretzel..

DE's in a 4-3 don't have to worry about pass coverage, they just go straight for the QB and let the LB's and DB's shut down the rest of the field...

This is my last post on this issue. You clearly don't know what you're talking about and are relying on homer drivel.

Oh right--he'll just "hit the QB" what a brilliant solution. Why didn't D-coordinators who make millions think of a completely simple solution? Here's why--you may be familiar with this--Alfred Morris then gashes your defense for 200.

And Williams is one of the best LTs in the league--dismissing him as a "tub of goo" really shows a lot. You do realize he hasn't had a sack against Williams in 2 years right? He didn't do squat last year and, in 2011, he needed to be moved over Tyler Polumbus because Williams was dominating him.

And I love the injury excuse--newsflash--he wasn't the only injured player in the NFL last year. Williams and Griffin were both playing on 1 leg.