So Sick of The Shawne Merriman Hype

[kartr]

True. Watch Merriman's sacks, and there's usually pressure by other players. At least half of his sacks came after the quarterback had tucked the ball, often because of pressure by other players.

Watch Ware's sacks, and he's almost always the only one anywhere close to the quarterback. And he almost always gets to the quarterback quickly, beating his man right away. On his only sack with the quarterback out of the pocket, he was the one who flushed him out.

Apparently you didn't see the Colts game. Merriman was the catalyst, he put so much pressure on Manning that they had to double up on him and that's what caused his teammates to get their pressure.

 

[superpunk]

although.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANH5SMRxK_Q

That video will put the fear of god in you. I see almost no help on any of his sacks, and his sack against STL was a thing of beauty. Destroyed the RT, causing Martin to roll out, and then chased him down. I see the difference Adam, but don't think it's anything against Merriman. As players, they are pretty much equals so far.

 

[lurkercowboy]

I was at the Carolina game and those forced fumbles by Ware were incredible athletic plays. The guy is a playmaker.

 

[Stautner]

I was at the Carolina game and those forced fumbles by Ware were incredible athletic plays. The guy is a playmaker.

The problem is that Ware didn't play like that most of the season - that game was an anomoly. It does show what kind of potential Ware has, but he has to find a way to be consistent. He spent most of last year waving at QB's as LT's guided his speed rush 5 yards past the QB and out of the play.

 

[bayarealightning]

Stats god AdamJt13 has similar stats to support why Ware had an arguably better season than Merriman. A quick search could get you all the ammo you need to argue the likes of bayarealightning. Not that merriman is a poor player, god knows i'd like to see some of that emotion from our defensive players, but i like our pick.

I have yet to go through all of the pages, but since my handle was brought up... First, I agree that 11th is too high for Merriman at this point. He has arguably the Best tight end in the NFL ranked in the 20's or 30's in Antonio Gates. No. After one year, no player should be ranked that high. I am a huge Charger and Merriman fan, but that is rediculous. Also, you guys have nothing to worry about. Ware is a player. I am happy that we got Merriman. You guys had your choice between the two. You didn't do too bad yourselves. And to those who are saying that Ware is better hands down, you have your opinions and I have mine. Merriman is a hitter. I love hitters!

 

[AdamJT13]

I'm a big Merriman fan, so I decided to check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_v7awqSfmU

Sack 1 - he bullrushes Williams? straight into the Bills QB. All Merriman on that one.

That was Chris Villarial, a guard, who set up half a step in front of the QB. Villarial and Merriman didn't even make contact until Merriman was right by Losman.

Sack 2, there is pressure up the middle from another defender, but when Jets QB steps up, Merriman trips him. Not extraordinarily impressive, but I think you attribute that solely to Merriman.

Huh? Bollinger scrambled out of the pocket because Cooper was flying through the air at him on a blitz, forcing the running back to chip him low. Merriman was being blocked by the fullback, Sowell, until Bollinger came running his way.

Sack 3, it shows Green going down, not sure if it's a sack, but it just looks like a busted play.

It was a jailbreak, with three defenders collapsing the pocket around Green. Merriman beat Jason Dunn, a tight end, with a rip move.

Sack 4, Merriman gets a free shot at the Steelers QB. Not a very impressive sack, but he got there with hustle.

He was unblocked.

Sack 5 against Manning, I think was a nice play where he recovered from biting the play action, and ran Manning down. Coverage sack, unless it was a designed keeper, which I doubt.

I was either a keeper or a busted play, because there wasn't a single receiver who went out for a pass, and it wasn't counted as a sack.

Sack 6, he doesn't beat anyone, just gets McNabb when McNabb breaks containment. No help from other players

McNabb started scrambling after his pocket shrunk and nobody was open.

Sack 7, he completely beats the RT. It's a pathetic sack in the end, not sure if he got whole r half, but Castillo takes Peyton down.

That was Merriman's only sack when he beat an offensive tackle to the quarterback. And he was lucky to be credited with half a sack, since Manning got completely away from Merriman and was taken down by Castillo.

Sack 8, gets Green when he steps up, outside pressure applied by others. He does get alot of pub for pushing Roaf backwards a few feet, tho.

Sack 9, he owes to others. Bills QB flushed right, simple take down.

Two more coverage/cleanup sacks.

Sack 10, he drives the G straight back into Peyton, and gets him when he steps up.

That video is missing Merriman's sack against Plummer, when Plummer was scrambling.

I didn't see him getting an inordinate amount of cheap sacks, and I don't know how this relates to Ware (might look at that in a minute).

Merriman got sacks against McNabb, Green, Bollinger, Losman and Plummer when they were scrambling because of pressure or coverage -- and none of those were because of Merriman's pressure. That's five sacks right there. Ware had one sack when the quarterback was scrambling, and that was because Ware dumped the tackle on his rear end and flushed the QB out of the pocket himself, with nobody else even getting near the QB.

Merriman got one sack when he was unblocked (Roethlisberger). I don't think Ware ever had a free run at the quarterback, and he certainly didn't get any of his sacks that way.

Merriman got three of his sacks by beating a guard (Losman twice, Manning once). After Ware beat Steve Hutchinson for a sack in the preseason, I don't think he was ever left 1-on-1 against a guard again.

Ware, on the other hand, got five of his sacks simply by flat-out beating his man to the quarterback before he could throw the ball. Two more came when the quarterback held the ball in the pocket for a second or two, but nobody else got any pressure. And the other one came when Ware dumped the tackle, flushed the QB himself and ran him down for the sack.

If you just watch their sacks, Ware looks like a more dangerous pass-rusher.

 

[lyrclcipha12]

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=125341


scroll down to number 11. thats almost laughable.

 

[superpunk]

Ware looks more dangerous, no doubt, adam. Merriman looks more physical, to me, in those sacks. He really gets a great push on his blocker, and he does that better than Ware, altho WAre is no slouch. I agree with your general premise on Merriman v/ Ware. I think Ellis owes about half of his sacks last year to pressure generated by Ware. They are both great budding stars. For whatever reason, Merriman gets all the pub and hype. I didn't see all Chargers games, so Merriman could have been causing pessure that lead to other LBs getting sacks as well, it's tough to know.

Ware is an absolute beast, as that video attests. I will say this - people who complain about Ware's lack of "moves", would be absolutely distraught if we had Merriman. Do you agree? He has no moves.

 

[Deep_Freeze]

Well, to me, Ware is the better athlete, Merriman is the better football player right now. In an article about Ware, it says that he is watching tapes and such to get more moves. Well, I think the some of these moves are natural for Merriman, he already has them cause he is just a football player.

So it comes down to if you think these football moves can be taught or learned, or you just have to have it naturally. Of course, Ware is the better athlete, so if these skills can be taught, then he could really be a monster.

But if we look at the natural side, Merriman isn't thinking about what move he does, he just does it and doesn't know what he might do. Whereas Ware might be thinking at the snap, "I'm going to try my spin move now....", and he does the spin move regardless of the position of the offensive lineman.

Then there is the matter of a mean streak, Ware can appear pretty emotionless on the field. Now this might be good for a golfer, but sometimes showing intensity after a nice play can pump up your teamates. Ray Lewis and Joey Porter are good examples of someone that can motivate their teamates like that.

I believe we have to accept Ware for what he is, he is kinda similar to Ellis. Roy is our emotional leader on D, so Ware doesn't have to be forced in that role, which isn't anything against Ware. Its just not his way.

 

[Stautner]

Well, to me, Ware is the better athlete, Merriman is the better football player right now. In an article about Ware, it says that he is watching tapes and such to get more moves. Well, I think the some of these moves are natural for Merriman, he already has them cause he is just a football player.

So it comes down to if you think these football moves can be taught or learned, or you just have to have it naturally. Of course, Ware is the better athlete, so if these skills can be taught, then he could really be a monster.

But if we look at the natural side, Merriman isn't thinking about what move he does, he just does it and doesn't know what he might do. Whereas Ware might be thinking at the snap, "I'm going to try my spin move now....", and he does the spin move regardless of the position of the offensive lineman.

Then there is the matter of a mean streak, Ware can appear pretty emotionless on the field. Now this might be good for a golfer, but sometimes showing intensity after a nice play can pump up your teamates. Ray Lewis and Joey Porter are a good example of someone that can motivate their teamates like that.

I believe we have to accept Ware for what he is, he is kinda similar to Ellis. Roy is our emotional leader on D, so Ware doesn't have to be forced in that role, which isn't anything against Ware. Its just not his way.

I'm not so sure Merriman's moves are better. Here's what I think the difference is. Ware relies almost solely on speed, trying to use the move to get to the QB untouched. Merriman may use the same move, but he understands that the "move" is only a tool to get an advantage so the OT can't block him squarely. Once he has the OT off balance a little he uses his strength to fight through the OT's arms and hands to finish it off, while Ware just keeps going around trying to keep from getting touched at all.

I think Ware is learning - I saw signs of it in the preseason - but we'll have to see how it goes.

 

[superpunk]

deep freeze, I've watched Merriman since he was at UMD, and in the moves dept., Ware beats him pretty good. Merriman is a great physical specimen, and he relies on his braun more than any finesse, alot. He will generally push his blocker back, and then try to roll to either side. He is strong enough to do it, but it doesn't result in a lot of quick sacks, a la Ware in the CAR game last year.

 

[Deep_Freeze]

I'm not so sure Merriman's moves are better. Here's what I think the difference is. Ware relies almost solely on speed, trying to use the move to get to the QB untouched. Merriman may use the same move, but he understands that the "move" is only a tool to get an advantage so the OT can't block him squarely. Once he has the OT off balance a little he uses his strength to fight through the OT's arms and hands to finish it off, while Ware just keeps going around trying to keep from getting touched at all.

I think Ware is learning - I saw signs of it in the preseason - but we'll have to see how it goes.

Well, that is actually a good example of what I meant, Merriman is just naturally a little more advanced in pass rushing instincts. Not a bad thing, if those pass rushing instincts can be taught.

 

[dallasfan31]

i really like this kid he a stud. but we good with ware so i dont care about the hype.

 

[AdamJT13]

Merriman looks more physical, to me, in those sacks. He really gets a great push on his blocker, and he does that better than Ware

I counted only twice when Merriman got a "great push" for a sack -- against Roaf and against Ryan Lilja, the Colts' guard. Ware did the same thing to Tra Thomas and Alex Barron for sacks, not to mention doing it to the NFL's largest player, Leonard Davis, when he caused the interception that Henry returned for a touchdown. And, of course, he put Jammal Brown completely on rails this preseason.

To me, Ware has a much better speed/rip rush and an equal or better bull rush. Neither of them have shown much of an inside spin move or other moves yet. The only thing Merriman does better than Ware as a pass-rusher is his sack dance.

 

[Deep_Freeze]

deep freeze, I've watched Merriman since he was at UMD, and in the moves dept., Ware beats him pretty good. Merriman is a great physical specimen, and he relies on his braun more than any finesse, alot. He will generally push his blocker back, and then try to roll to either side. He is strong enough to do it, but it doesn't result in a lot of quick sacks, a la Ware in the CAR game last year.

Cool, you have seen much more of him than me. I just always thought his instincts are better.

Don't underestimate the intangibles of being an emotional leader or a team. That is something Merriman has, that Ware will probably never have. Course, we really don't need it from him anyway. Him and Merriman will probably be close in numbers for their whole careers.

 

[superpunk]

I counted only twice when Merriman got a "great push" for a sack -- against Roaf and against Ryan Lilja, the Colts' guard. Ware did the same thing to Tra Thomas and Alex Barron for sacks, not to mention doing it to the NFL's largest player, Leonard Davis, when he caused the interception that Henry returned for a touchdown. And, of course, he put Jammal Brown completely on rails this preseason.

To me, Ware has a much better speed/rip rush and an equal or better bull rush. Neither of them have shown much of an inside spin move or other moves yet. The only thing Merriman does better than Ware as a pass-rusher is his sack dance.

lmao....ok, maybe I'm double-homering out here. I'd take either one. I don't think either one has a significant advantage over the other. We'll see how it turns out this year. Ware and the entire defense should be much more comfortable. I'd like it if sites broke down how many times a player rushed the passer, dropped in coverage, etc. A guy who rushes on 200 plays an gets 10 sacks is alot more impressive than a guy doing it 400 times for the same amount.

 

[AdamJT13]

lmao....ok, maybe I'm double-homering out here. I'd take either one.

I certainly would, too. I'd love to have Merriman and Ware on opposite sides.

I'd like it if sites broke down how many times a player rushed the passer, dropped in coverage, etc. A guy who rushes on 200 plays an gets 10 sacks is alot more impressive than a guy doing it 400 times for the same amount.

But as we've shown in this thread, all sacks are not created equal. I'll take a guy who creates sacks on his own but gets fewer sacks overall over a guy who racks up a bunch of coverage and garbage sacks. Not that that's all Merriman does, but he certainly got a lot of those. Fewer of his sacks came from his own doing.

 

[Deep_Freeze]

I certainly would, too. I'd love to have Merriman and Ware on opposite sides.



But as we've shown in this thread, all sacks are not created equal. I'll take a guy who creates sacks on his own but gets fewer sacks overall over a guy who racks up a bunch of coverage and garbage sacks. Not that that's all Merriman does, but he certainly got a lot of those. Fewer of his sacks came from his own doing.

Yeah, I think Charles Haley was a good example of this. Never put up huge sack totals, but the ones he did get, he created.

 

[bayarealightning]

I will leave the analysis of Ware v. Merriman to you boys. We got the defensive rookie of the year and Pro Bowler. A guy who didn't start the first 6 games of the year and was taken out on passing situations when he became a starter. Why? Because he was not up to snuff in coverage. You guys who keep saying that all Merriman did was rush the passer crack me up. If none of you saw it, but Merriman made an All-Pro play against Chicage this pre-season. He drops into coverage, tips the ball, does a 180, and dives for the interception. If you want to call him one demintional, you are only fooling yourself. The Cowboys chose Ware and we were left with Merriman. Enjoy Ware because he is a heck of a player, but you can't hate on Merriman. It's a little unbecoming.

 

[superpunk]

I will leave the analysis of Ware v. Merriman to you boys. We got the defensive rookie of the year and Pro Bowler. A guy who didn't start the first 6 games of the year and was taken out on passing situations when he became a starter. Why? Because he was not up to snuff in coverage. You guys who keep saying that all Merriman did was rush the passer crack me up. If none of you saw it, but Merriman made an All-Pro play against Chicage this pre-season. He drops into coverage, tips the ball, does a 180, and dives for the interception. If you want to call him one demintional, you are only fooling yourself. The Cowboys chose Ware and we were left with Merriman. Enjoy Ware because he is a heck of a player, but you can't hate on Merriman. It's a little unbecoming.

Noone's hating on him. Condescension is unbecoming. :