Some Facts about penalties, the Cowboys, and their opponents

[Bobhaze]

I certainly understand the general frustration regarding penalties - and some questioning whether there is a possible organized effort by referees or even the league itself to screw over the Cowboys. I'm not there yet. My concern is that it appears that officials have become too prevalent in the conversation on a week-to-week basis regarding the outcomes of games. It seems like every weekend, there is a discussion about how Team A beat Team B, and that Team B was the victim of a couple of blatantly bad penalties or non-calls, that aided in Team A winning. These now seemingly weekly conversations is ruining our faith in the integrity of the sport and the fun of the games themselves

This is the reason why I stopped watching the NBA. Haven't watched it for more than a decade, because the referees became too involved in the game. Watch an NBA game and see if you can get 40 seconds of play without some ref blowing a whistle. The same appears to be happening in the NFL, especially the past several years. I no longer know what pass interference or holding is. But I can certainly understand the anger when we have a Tyron Smith or Tyler Smith - both ranked amongst the top at their respective positions - get called for questionable holding calls; and then the same officiating crew has blinders on when Parsons is constantly getting wrapped around the waist, chest, and neck. All I expect is consistency. Or to use a baseball analogy: call balls and strikes the same for both teams.

Having pointed this out, what the Cowboys can change are the self-inflicted penalties that have become too common. I feel that if we could clean up the penalties - especially the pre-snap penalties on both sides of the ball - that would allow us to have more successful drives and also allow us to stop opponent's drives. Then when we do get called for that head-scratching penalty or non-called penalty on the opposing team, it won't have as much of an impact on the outcome of the game. Now, let's go beat Detroit this weekend.

Well said.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

There’s been a lot of talk this week about NFL officiating, questions about the NFL rigging games against the Cowboys, etc. I’m on record as someone who believes NFL officiating is certainly bad at times but I do not believe there is some evil conspiracy against the Cowboys. Have the officials missed too many holding calls against Micah Parsons? Yes, for sure. Are they “out to get us”? No.

Here are just the basic facts regarding penalties and the Cowboys.

• The Cowboys have been flagged 108 times for 910 yards. (2nd most in the NFL)
• Cowboys’ opponents have been flagged 94 times for 860 yards. (5th most yards for an opponent in the NFL)
• The difference between Cowboys and their opponents‘ is 12 penalties over 15 games.(Cowboys avg 1.25 more penalties per game than our opponents)
• The difference in penalty yardage of Cowboys vs our opponents is 50 yards. Over 15 games, that averages 3.33 yards per game difference in penalty yardage between Cowboys and opponents.

Website that contains great info on NFL penalties in 2023: https://www.nflpenalties.com/

Cue the “it’s not just the number of penalties, but it’s when they call them!!!” whining lament.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

I literally watched a replay from yesterday’s Browns vs. Jets game where the back judge watched as Joe Flacco took a hand chop to the face (ie. “Illegal Hands to the Face”) while rolling out before throwing a TD.

Folks, there no conspiracy. There’s just suck arse refereeing.

 

[RD21]

I think one of the biggest problems is the NFL over regulates its game. Too many flags. I prefer the “let them play” mentality to a 20 penalty flag fest.

Same here.

While it's hard to admit, I think most of it is emotionally based. We are passionate about our Cowboys, & want to win. When we see a questionable call, or no call, it upsets us. None of us get upset when it goes the other way..lol.

I also coached for some time (15yrs). I had a unique experience one Saturday a number of years ago. After my team's game was over, the next division played right after us. Same cities, same sidelines. I spent the first half on "our" sidelines. As a city coach, it was expected to support the other divisions in our city when possible. However, a real good friend of mine was coaching the team on the other side. I spent the second half on his sidelines.

There was absolutely zero difference in the complaints of the officiating. If you closed your eyes, you could've been on either sidelines, & not have been able to tell which teams' fans you were listening too. Everybody thinks their team is getting the shaft from the refs. Go to any other NFL teams boards. You'll see the same conversations happening. They ALL think the refs are out to get them, or are attempting to rig games against them.

The bottom line is, it is nearly impossible to view a game objectively from an officiating point of view, when you are passionately involved in support of your team.

One more thing to add Bob. You & I grew up watching football, where there was no replay. There was no righting wrongs on the field. Whether it was the spot, or whether someone was inbounds, or whether or not they fumbled, etc. There were many game changing/deciding plays that stood. The younger generations watching today, don't appreciate how clean the game is compared to yesteryear. While it'll never be perfect, I think that we currently watch the cleanest games in the history of the NFL, mostly due to replay.

Having said all that..... I think Micah gets held too much without getting any calls.

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

That would be interesting to know. I welcome the research.

It's pretty straightforward.

Average play success rate on 1st and 15: 41%
Average play success rate on 3rd and 15-20: 10%

Data is from 2021 but should still hold mostly true - link

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

Cue the “it’s not just the number of penalties, but it’s when they call them!!!” whining lament.

Is a 10 yard run on 3rd and 20 more valuable than a 5 yard run on 3rd and 3?

No. Yards aren't all equal, plays aren't all equal, penalties aren't all equal. It's not some enlightened head space to pretend that when penalties are called doesn't matter.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Is a 10 yard run on 3rd and 20 more valuable than a 5 yard run on 3rd and 3?

No. Yards aren't all equal, plays aren't all equal, penalties aren't all equal. It's not some enlightened head space to pretend that when penalties are called doesn't matter.

What you're failing to compute is that there are actually infractions occurring.

Thinking a flag shouldn't be called strictly based on down and distance or game situation is silly.

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

What you're failing to compute is that there are actually infractions occurring.

Thinking a flag shouldn't be called strictly based on down and distance or game situation is silly.

Doesn't matter.

Not what I said. Nobody wants a league where they call EVERY infraction. Games would be unwatchable.

Your response is devoid of the point. Answer the question: Is a 10 yard run on 3rd and 20 more valuable than a 5 yard run on 3rd and 3?

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Doesn't matter.

Not what I said. Nobody wants a league where they call EVERY infraction. Games would be unwatchable.

Your response is devoid of the point. Answer the question: Is a 10 yard run on 3rd and 20 more valuable than a 5 yard run on 3rd and 3?

What doesn't matter?

Your point was defeated ("It's not some enlightened head space to pretend that when penalties are called doesn't matter.") when I reduced it down to what it is.

 

[Creeper]

There’s been a lot of talk this week about NFL officiating, questions about the NFL rigging games against the Cowboys, etc. I’m on record as someone who believes NFL officiating is certainly bad at times but I do not believe there is some evil conspiracy against the Cowboys. Have the officials missed too many holding calls against Micah Parsons? Yes, for sure. Are they “out to get us”? No.

Here are just the basic facts regarding penalties and the Cowboys.

• The Cowboys have been flagged 108 times for 910 yards. (2nd most in the NFL)
• Cowboys’ opponents have been flagged 94 times for 860 yards. (5th most yards for an opponent in the NFL)
• The difference between Cowboys and their opponents‘ is 12 penalties over 15 games.(Cowboys avg 1.25 more penalties per game than our opponents)
• The difference in penalty yardage of Cowboys vs our opponents is 50 yards. Over 15 games, that averages 3.33 yards per game difference in penalty yardage between Cowboys and opponents.

Website that contains great info on NFL penalties in 2023: https://www.nflpenalties.com/

Not to quibble with your facts. I do not believe their is any conspiracy against Dallas (although I do wonder what is up with no holding calls on Micah). But I recall the first Eagles game. The Cowboys were flagged 8 times in the first half. The Eagles were flagged 1 or 2 times. In the second half, after the Eagles scored to make it 28-17, the flag started flying against the Eagles. By the end of the game, the Cowboys and Eagles both had 10 flags. But what is important to remember is that some of the flags not thrown on the Eagles cost Dallas a lot. Schoonmaker was tackled before he could catch a pass that would have been a TD. He got the ball but fell short of the goal line by a few inches.

That was after the Eagles had gotten away with some penalties against the Dolphins that really helped the Eagles defense.

Again, I don't know that there is a conspiracy against Dallas, the poor officiating certainly provides fodder for those who do.

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

What doesn't matter?

Your point was defeated ("It's not some enlightened head space to pretend that when penalties are called doesn't matter.") when I reduced it down to what it is.

Answer the question.

 

[VaqueroTD]

I literally watched a replay from yesterday’s Browns vs. Jets game where the back judge watched as Joe Flacco took a hand chop to the face (ie. “Illegal Hands to the Face”) while rolling out before throwing a TD.

Folks, there no conspiracy. There’s just suck arse refereeing.

Only conspiracy, if you want to call it a conspiracy, is I'm sure the NFL doesn't pursue a lot of this because they don't want the game to turn into a penalty fest. NBA had some problems with this. I don't blame the NFL for not wanting to stop play every down. The worst games are the heavy penalty games when everything is being called and no one can get physical or the momentum.

To those who want EVERYTHING called, be careful what you wish for....

 

[Diehardblues]

It's also mythology.

The idea that teams just "overcome" 2nd and 20 after a crappy holding call is, quite frankly, b.s.

It’s difficult of course and holding calls are drive killers.

But my reference to “ overcoming” is more of a broad stroke to teams overcoming adversity whether it’s penalties, players miscues, the elements , etc.

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

It’s difficult of course and holding calls are drive killers.

But my reference to “ overcoming” is more of a broad stroke to teams overcoming adversity whether it’s penalties, players miscues, the elements , etc.

How can you say both of those things?

In the context of a game, drive-killing penalties make the latter impossible, epecially when they're ticky tack and subjective.

Using the Buffalo game as reference: how is a team supposed to overcome a ref giving Buffalo 4 points and then taking at least 3 off the board? The idea of overcoming that is saying "win a road game in the rain by 8 points in 3 quarters." That's a standard no team can meet.

 

[RonnieT24]

One, the raw numbers don't even begin to tell the tale. If you tell me to cover CeeDee Lamb fairly he will go for 400 yards and 8 TDs against me by half. If you let me hold him and interfere with him I can cut that by two thirds. Doing so doesn't make me a better player nor does it make CeeDee a lesser player. It just makes me a cheater. If some idiot picks up the paper the next day and sees that I shut CeeDee out for 2 quarters that's all they're going to see and they will conclude I "did a good job on him." That person could then logically be classified as a complete boob. Why is this so difficult for people to acknowledge? If our guy is WAY better than the guy across from him but the refs allow the guy across from him to consistently cheat the fact that the penalties "even out" is a flat out lie. Micah Parsons would average 3 sacks a game or 5 holding calls a game if the games were actually being called accurately. Someone said the other day that they had never seen the whole "throwing up of the hands to try and sell the holding call" behavior that Micah and some of our other defenders engage in now work. Apparently that person never watched defenders who were being pancaked flail like they were having a seizure back when Tyron was dominating them before his injuries set in. It used to work at least once a game. Replay would show that all Tyron did was drive them into the ground.... but the defeated DE would draw the flag by flopping. The refs would buy it at least once.

 

[RonnieT24]

It’s difficult of course and holding calls are drive killers.

But my reference to “ overcoming” is more of a broad stroke to teams overcoming adversity whether it’s penalties, players miscues, the elements , etc.

No team is good enough to beat the refs. That team does not exist.

 

[Diehardblues]

How can you say both of those things?

In the context of a game, drive-killing penalties make the latter impossible, epecially when they're ticky tack and subjective.

Using the Buffalo game as reference: how is a team supposed to overcome a ref giving Buffalo 4 points and then taking at least 3 off the board? The idea of overcoming that is saying "win a road game in the rain by 8 points in 3 quarters." That's a standard no team can meet.

Like I said , it was a general broad stroke. Might not apply in all situations. Sometimes these adversities are too much to overcome.

 

[Diehardblues]

No team is good enough to beat the refs. That team does not exist.

We did for several championships.

Or did the refs just start rigging our games when we didn’t have as good of team?

 

[MarcusRock]

That game is just more evidence that they are are "scripted."

They had to give Dallas calls so that the division race was still on through the remainder of the year. If anything, it proves the point.

How about just not throw the flags in the first place rather than draw attention to yourselves by throwing and picking up 3 for the same team? The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. I say this for the NFL 'spiracy people too. Why leave things to chance with ref crews when the best one to rig a game for you is the QB. Get to him and you get all the results you could possibly want without waiting for the semblance of a penalty to come up in a game. Less things left to chance. But no one wants to go there for some reason. Proof the 'spiracy bunch make that spit up to have an excuse.

 

[RonnieT24]

We did for several championships.

Or did the refs just start rigging our games when we didn’t have as good of team?

No we didn't. The league didn't begin to tilt the games against us until the 1995 lawsuits over sponsorship deals. Up to that point things were mostly fair.. We only got jobbed in the '78 Super Bowl against the Steelers and one the QB sneak in the Ice Bowl before that. Maybe the Deion no-PI call in the 1994 NFC Championship. So basically every 10-15 years. Now it's every other game.. Or if you're Micah Parsons it's every other snap.