State of the DT position

mattjames2010

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The DT position is kind of like the RB position. You can pull free agents in off the streets to play those positions. They are easily replaceable. Only super stars should be paid and kept. And that makes me a by committee guy for both of those spots.

LOL what are you talking about? We have been trying to "replace" the DT for over a decade, it hasn't worked out.
 

plasticman

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A lot of fans discount the value of experience. It's not unusual for DT's to get better as years progress, especially when it comes to stopping the run.

During the first three to four years in the league, a DT can be fooled more often by an offensive scheme. However, as the seasons go by, a DT has seen just about everything and they are no longer easy to fool. Also, they are more used to the rigors of the position and they become more familiar with opponent personnel with their individual nuances.

Of course, I'm talking about DT's with around five to seven years experience and still able to play at a high level.

Youthful exuberance is great and fun to watch but you got to have that Tony Casillas and Jim Jeffcoat around to stay disciplined.

This is why I am saying don't give up on someone like Trystan Hill. Many fans couldn't wait to give up on Armstrong last year before training camp began. I don't hear a lot of criticism now.
We should all be excited about Osa and Gallimore.
 

morasp

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They're valued, the last few drafts just haven't had many good ones. NFL had only 2 last year and 2 this year with a grade of starter within two years. There are only 11 this year with draftable grades. The two last year went early and so will the two this year.
 

CowboyoWales

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A lot of fans discount the value of experience. It's not unusual for DT's to get better as years progress, especially when it comes to stopping the run.

During the first three to four years in the league, a DT can be fooled more often by an offensive scheme. However, as the seasons go by, a DT has seen just about everything and they are no longer easy to fool. Also, they are more used to the rigors of the position and they become more familiar with opponent personnel with their individual nuances.

Of course, I'm talking about DT's with around five to seven years experience and still able to play at a high level.

Youthful exuberance is great and fun to watch but you got to have that Tony Casillas and Jim Jeffcoat around to stay disciplined.

This is why I am saying don't give up on someone like Trystan Hill. Many fans couldn't wait to give up on Armstrong last year before training camp began. I don't hear a lot of criticism now.
We should all be excited about Osa and Gallimore.
I think some fans see Donald and view the position based on him. Our DT need is to stop the run and enable the edges and Micah to produce.
A combo of veteran stalwarts (head over body experience): Watkins and for me Urban to stop the run and more athletic, young Gallimore/Osa as 3-tech is a decent approach imo.
 

Blackrain

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Not true. Keep reading.

The Patriots built a 20 year dynasty and most of us can only name about 2 DT's they had during all that time.

Yes Vince wilfork and Richard Seymour and probably four super bowls who can we name that we won super bowls with in that length of time zero

I would be elated with two great defensive tackles and four super bowls in that length of time
 

atlantacowboy

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I just realized that Malik Collins signed this offseason for $8.5MM per year.

Now I've been about as frustrated as anyone at the lack of production out of our DT unit, but given someone like Collins can sign for that much on a multi-year deal really makes me wonder how truly rare it is to find a top DT in this league, and how valuable it is when you find an Aaron Donald, Chris Jones, etc. And if so how is this position not prioritized more in the draft by all teams as a premium position?

Maybe I'm off on my evaluation of Collins, but it feels he is slightly above JAG level, no? Is the state of the DT position league wide that bad with the exception of top tier players? Does it take a freak athlete or elite talent to play the position in todays game? It almost feels like either you have a top guy or you might as well just cycle through mid round picks like the Cowboys have done, and move on after their rookie deals.

Collins is a veteran rotational player who has some talent. Currently, he would be the best DT on our roster if he played here. We have the worst DT rotation in the NFL. We literally don't have a top 50 player at the position. This makes perfect sense since we invest no premium picks in the position, or invest in the free agent market. While it is hard to find a chris jones on draft day, it is not hard to be better than we were last season. Yet, so far, improvement is alluding us. It is truly stunning how clueless this organization has become.
 

Batman1980

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Interesting thought, but why do the cowboys continue to struggle against the run then? Hill, Watson, gallimore, bohanna, urban all are over or very close to 6’4” 300lbs. Only true undersized DT is OSA.

Stopping the rushing attack is about winning at the point of attack and rallying to the ball. That begins with the nose tackle and we haven't had a true one of those since Jason Ferguson in 2006.
 

Batman1980

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Collins is a veteran rotational player who has some talent. Currently, he would be the best DT on our roster if he played here. We have the worst DT rotation in the NFL. We literally don't have a top 50 player at the position. This makes perfect sense since we invest no premium picks in the position, or invest in the free agent market. While it is hard to find a chris jones on draft day, it is not hard to be better than we were last season. Yet, so far, improvement is alluding us. It is truly stunning how clueless this organization has become.

If Dan Quinn were the defensive genius people think he is, why hasn't he talked the lack of brain trust running this team into fixing the issues at 1T and Mike?
 

Aerolithe_Lion

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Not true. Keep reading.

The Patriots built a 20 year dynasty and most of us can only name about 2 DT's they had during all that time.

this only furthers his point though. In that 20 years span, the patriots made 9 Super Bowls. 0 of those without Malcolm Brown, Vince Wolfork, or Richard Seymour.
 

Sydla

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Our DTs are middling. They just are.

They simply don’t value the DT position like other teams.
 

Sydla

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A lot of fans discount the value of experience. It's not unusual for DT's to get better as years progress, especially when it comes to stopping the run.

During the first three to four years in the league, a DT can be fooled more often by an offensive scheme. However, as the seasons go by, a DT has seen just about everything and they are no longer easy to fool. Also, they are more used to the rigors of the position and they become more familiar with opponent personnel with their individual nuances.

Of course, I'm talking about DT's with around five to seven years experience and still able to play at a high level.

Youthful exuberance is great and fun to watch but you got to have that Tony Casillas and Jim Jeffcoat around to stay disciplined.

This is why I am saying don't give up on someone like Trystan Hill. Many fans couldn't wait to give up on Armstrong last year before training camp began. I don't hear a lot of criticism now.
We should all be excited about Osa and Gallimore.

Armstrong is a JAG. He’s a backup, a dime a dozen type player. Sure he’s fine for depth but I am not following your point here. I don’t think many fans would have cared one way or the other if Armstrong had been brought back or not.

Hill is what he is. Expecting the light bulb to go off in his head at this point and be anything more than a backup type DT is wishful thinking.
 

CWR

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A lot of fans discount the value of experience. It's not unusual for DT's to get better as years progress, especially when it comes to stopping the run.

During the first three to four years in the league, a DT can be fooled more often by an offensive scheme. However, as the seasons go by, a DT has seen just about everything and they are no longer easy to fool. Also, they are more used to the rigors of the position and they become more familiar with opponent personnel with their individual nuances.

Of course, I'm talking about DT's with around five to seven years experience and still able to play at a high level.

Youthful exuberance is great and fun to watch but you got to have that Tony Casillas and Jim Jeffcoat around to stay disciplined.

This is why I am saying don't give up on someone like Trystan Hill. Many fans couldn't wait to give up on Armstrong last year before training camp began. I don't hear a lot of criticism now.
We should all be excited about Osa and Gallimore.

Yeah I think Hill has had his time, and being a Marinelli guy I don't have a ton of faith.

Osa and Gallimore though, can still be really good players imo.
 

thunderpimp91

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Collins is a veteran rotational player who has some talent. Currently, he would be the best DT on our roster if he played here. We have the worst DT rotation in the NFL. We literally don't have a top 50 player at the position. This makes perfect sense since we invest no premium picks in the position, or invest in the free agent market. While it is hard to find a chris jones on draft day, it is not hard to be better than we were last season. Yet, so far, improvement is alluding us. It is truly stunning how clueless this organization has become.
That is where my quesion comes from, because i'm not entire sure the Cowboys havent dedicated resources to the position. It's are they just terrible at evaluating talent at the position, or is finding quality DTs much more difficult than we tend to think?

FAs have mostly been the role player variety or bargain bin variety, I agree. Urban, Watkins, even a Donteri Poe I would throw in there with where he was in his career when they signed him. The last 3 drafts they have 3 DTs selected within the top 100. Feels like that should be better than worst unit in the NFL, especially with rotational/role players signed through FA.
 

thunderpimp91

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Stopping the rushing attack is about winning at the point of attack and rallying to the ball. That begins with the nose tackle and we haven't had a true one of those since Jason Ferguson in 2006.
Yeah, but thats the whole question...why is that? We've drafted 3 high in the last 3 drafts, and signed numerous FAs, albeit mostly role players. Poe was supposed to be a legitimate run stuffer, but was easily schemed around.
 

Oz-of-Cowboy-Country

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this only furthers his point though. In that 20 years span, the patriots made 9 Super Bowls. 0 of those without Malcolm Brown, Vince Wolfork, or Richard Seymour.
What I'm basically saying is our DL can't stop the run because they're not big enough. They need to be bigger across the board. Until that happens we will struggle. And that's the truth. How hard is it to find bigger players?

It's not hard at all. They just aren't interested or don't know what they're doing.
 

thunderpimp91

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What I'm basically saying is our DL can't stop the run because they're not big enough. They need to be bigger across the board. Until that happens we will struggle. And that's the truth. How hard is it to find bigger players?

It's not hard at all. They just aren't interested or don't know what they're doing.
So why did Donteri Poe fail so hard? 6'3" 340lbs+
 

Cowboysheelsreds053

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6-4/300 is rather slim for a DT. You must look at height/weight ration. Most good run stoppers are of the 6-0 to 6-3/320 variety. It's about build.

And we have a bunch of 3 techs on the roster, not the 1 tech run stopping type. Bohanna is the only one, and he may be no more than a backup.


This, remember when they had Ratliff playing the 1 and we were screaming way back then to get a run stuffer.
 
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