State of the Team

[xwalker]

Saying Vinatieri is the reason they won the SB is like saying Robert Horry is the reason why the Lakers won the 2002 NBA title. If that's what you're saying, then I guess we've reached a point where arguing is pointless.

Yes, saying the a kicker is the reason that a team won the Super Bowl is a great example of the logic that is used way too often around here.

 

[car351]

I was just eyeballing our roster on the team website and I wanted to break down the players to get a real sense of the state of the team before we flip over the couch cushions and enter FA like a wounded lamb.

This was done with an eye to the future. I put them into 6 categories.

Seniors: Quality players who are huge factors now but don't have much of a future with this team.
Core: Established productive young (enough) players you can build around.
Hopes: Young players who have the potential to work their way into the core.
Role: Players who are limited but can be productive within a role on this team. Also any kickers.
Bodies: Spare parts. Players who can make a roster but are easily replaceable.
Flush: Players who either for a lack of talent or a poor contract, need to go now.

A few notes:

I batted around where to put Romo. He could be the QB here for another 5 or 6 years, making him core worthy. But he could also be playing his last couple of years in Dallas with that back. I'm playing it conservative and putting him in with the seniors.

I know most would put Brandon Carr among the core players. I am not one of those people. He's probably the single most over paid player in the league and I'd look to get out of that contract pronto. I could replace Brandon Carr in the 3rd round of this draft class.

Bernadeau is in with the role players. That role being a C/G backup. I like him there. I do not like him as a starting player.

Try not to hyperventilate over where I have Barry Church and/or Doug Free. To me, these guys are bad starters on a bad team. I actually think Church has talent but the game has evolved away from his strengths and exposes his weaknesses. He can not cover a route of ground like you need these days from your safeties. An in the box safety belongs in the Bodies list in today's NFL.

Yes, I expect DeMarcus Ware to remain a Cowboy but with his injuries the last couple of seasons I could not include him in any long term core of players.

No impending free agents with the exception of the exclusive rights FA Chris Jones. I did not include any practice squad players. I just didn't have time to break down all that talent.

If you disagree with any of these evaluations feel free to chime in and tell me why you're wrong.

Here is your state of the Dallas Cowboys. Peek through your fingers.

-

Seniors
Tony Romo
DeMarcus Ware
Jason Witten

Core
Dez Bryant
Travis Frederick
Sean Lee
DeMarco Murray
Orlando Scandrick
Tyron Smith

Hopes
Bruce Carter
Morris Claiborne
Tyrone Crawford
Gavin Escobar
DeVonte Holloman
Ronald Leary
B.W. Webb
Kyle Wilber
J.J. Wilcox
Terrance Williams

Role
Dan Bailey
Cole Beasley
Mackenzy Bernadeau
Dwayne Harris
L.P. Ladouceur
Sterling Moore
Kyle Orton
George Selvie

Bodies
Ben Bass
Barry Church
Tyler Clutts
Lance Dunbar
Justin Durant
Doug Free
James Hanna
Chris Jones
Jermey Parnell
Joseph Randle
Darrion Weems

Flush
Miles Austin
Brandon Carr
Phil Costa
Jakar Hamilton
Nick Hayden
Jeff Heath
Matt Johnson
Frank Kearse
Cameron Lawrence
Orie Lemon
Martez Wilson

Totally agree with everything but I am even maybe "more" a pessimist towards Lee and Murray as hopes thus far based on durability. Kind of my own reliability criteria I guess that I dont have 100 percent trust in either of 'em based on history is all. Other than that, spot on.

 

[burmafrd]

Yes, saying the a kicker is the reason that a team won the Super Bowl is a great example of the logic that is used way too often around here.

well they would have lost if he had not made the kicks so there you are.

By the way

Scott Norwood says hi

 

[Manwiththeplan]

well they would have lost if he had not made the kicks so there you are.

By the way

Scott Norwood says hi

would they have? For all 3 SB winning kicks, the score was tied.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

Saying Vinatieri is the reason they won the SB is like saying Robert Horry is the reason why the Lakers won the 2002 NBA title. If that's what you're saying, then I guess we've reached a point where arguing is pointless.

Pretty amazing that since Vinatieri left NE, Belicheat and Tom CryBaby Brady havent won another Super Bowl, yet Peyton got his finally.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

Pretty amazing that since Vinatieri left NE, Belicheat and Tom CryBaby Brady havent won another Super Bowl, yet Peyton got his finally.

Let's start with you telling me which playoff game having Vinatieri over Grostowski would've made any difference.

*Spoiler Alert*

There isn't one. He has missed like 2 post season kicks. One was a win against Jacksonville, the other was the blow out against Baltimore a few years ago (not the AFC CG, but the wildcard game).

And this proves my point. Having arguably the greatest kicker leave the team, literally made no difference. Kickers matter, but all we're saying is they are role players, not super stars or core players. You don't bring in players to compliment your kicker, like you would a superstar at almost any other position,

 

[rkell87]

Church and Carr should be in the role category.

I'd even consider them for hope just because you've gotta hope that they can take a step towards core.

exactly my thoughts

 

[birdwells1]

Pretty amazing that since Vinatieri left NE, Belicheat and Tom CryBaby Brady havent won another Super Bowl, yet Peyton got his finally.

Man, you convinced me, I think that the first pick overall should be a kicker every year.

 

[burmafrd]

would they have? For all 3 SB winning kicks, the score was tied.

sure they would have won anyway.

Got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale too

 

[burmafrd]

Let's start with you telling me which playoff game having Vinatieri over Grostowski would've made any difference.

*Spoiler Alert*

There isn't one. He has missed like 2 post season kicks. One was a win against Jacksonville, the other was the blow out against Baltimore a few years ago (not the AFC CG, but the wildcard game).

And this proves my point. Having arguably the greatest kicker leave the team, literally made no difference. Kickers matter, but all we're saying is they are role players, not super stars or core players. You don't bring in players to compliment your kicker, like you would a superstar at almost any other position,

why don't you look up the number of games per year decided by 3 pts or less. Might surprise you

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

Let's start with you telling me which playoff game having Vinatieri over Grostowski would've made any difference.

*Spoiler Alert*

There isn't one. He has missed like 2 post season kicks. One was a win against Jacksonville, the other was the blow out against Baltimore a few years ago (not the AFC CG, but the wildcard game).

And this proves my point. Having arguably the greatest kicker leave the team, literally made no difference. Kickers matter, but all we're saying is they are role players, not super stars or core players. You don't bring in players to compliment your kicker, like you would a superstar at almost any other position,

And yet we have to go back almost 10 years to the last Super Bowl victory for the Cheatriots - years w/o their clutch kicker. The facts are the facts and the results speak for themselves. Nobody that I know of has said the kicker was the sole reason for the win. Its a team game, and him being a part of the team made a huge difference. Knowing that he could make the kick took pressure off of the team in the sense that they only had to do so much to get him in range and do his thing. Its completely naive to think that the kicker doesnt make a significant difference and that a JAG kicker would have meant as much to the team.

Years ago the Foreskins had a kicker named Mark Mosley. Mosley was prob good for at least 2 wins a season all by himself. An average or below average team was able to win certain games solely because of what he brought to the table. The other 52 guys were made to look better in the end because of what he could do.

Ignoring or downplaying the significance of a stud kicker is naive at best, and willfully ignorant at worst.

 

[burmafrd]

And yet we have to go back almost 10 years to the last Super Bowl victory for the Cheatriots - years w/o their clutch kicker. The facts are the facts and the results speak for themselves. Nobody that I know of has said the kicker was the sole reason for the win. Its a team game, and him being a part of the team made a huge difference. Knowing that he could make the kick took pressure off of the team in the sense that they only had to do so much to get him in range and do his thing. Its completely naive to think that the kicker doesnt make a significant difference and that a JAG kicker would have meant as much to the team.

Years ago the Foreskins had a kicker named Mark Mosley. Mosley was prob good for at least 2 wins a season all by himself. An average or below average team was able to win certain games solely because of what he brought to the table. The other 52 guys were made to look better in the end because of what he could do.

Ignoring or downplaying the significance of a stud kicker is naive at best, and willfully ignorant at worst.

same people in this thread saying a kicker is not important are the same ones that would rather try a rookie then keep Bailey- then scream bloody murder when the rookie misses a kick

 

[Manwiththeplan]

why don't you look up the number of games per year decided by 3 pts or less. Might surprise you

and how many of those games included a clutch miss?

 

[Manwiththeplan]

same people in this thread saying a kicker is not important are the same ones that would rather try a rookie then keep Bailey- then scream bloody murder when the rookie misses a kick

Let's try and deal with facts, quote one person who said kickers aren't important or that we shouldn't have signed Bailey

 

[Manwiththeplan]

And yet we have to go back almost 10 years to the last Super Bowl victory for the Cheatriots - years w/o their clutch kicker. The facts are the facts and the results speak for themselves.

No team can stay on top forever and it's really silly to suggest or imply that Vinatieri is the reason they have fallen off. Not the departures of Ty Law, Willie McGinnest or Richard Seymour, not the decline in play with Teddy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel or Rodney Harrison, but Adam Vinatieri.

Nobody that I know of has said the kicker was the sole reason for the win. Its a team game, and him being a part of the team made a huge difference. Knowing that he could make the kick took pressure off of the team in the sense that they only had to do so much to get him in range and do his thing. Its completely naive to think that the kicker doesnt make a significant difference and that a JAG kicker would have meant as much to the team.

I remember someone saying Vinatieri is literally the reason why the Patriots won the SB.

Its a team game, and him being a part of the team made a huge difference. Knowing that he could make the kick took pressure off of the team in the sense that they only had to do so much to get him in range and do his thing. Its completely naive to think that the kicker doesnt make a significant difference and that a JAG kicker would have meant as much to the team.

So are you saying role players can't make a huge difference? Reguardless, half the points you're making, you're really arguing with your self, because no one is saying kickers aren't important and that they aren't significant. All I'm saying is I would define their impact as a role player.

 

[gmoney112]

No team can stay on top forever and it's really silly to suggest or imply that Vinatieri is the reason they have fallen off. Not the departures of Ty Law, Willie McGinnest or Richard Seymour, not the decline in play with Teddy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel or Rodney Harrison, but Adam Vinatieri.



I remember someone saying Vinatieri is literally the reason why the Patriots won the SB.



So are you saying role players can't make a huge difference? Reguardless, half the points you're making, you're really arguing with your self, because no one is saying kickers aren't important and that they aren't significant. All I'm saying is I would define their impact as a role player.

You're fighting a losing battle, bro. No point in using reason with certain posters. They'll reply with some bass ackwards comment that makes absolutely no sense to anyone but them.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

Ignoring or downplaying the significance of a stud kicker is naive at best, and willfully ignorant at worst.

Where would you say Dan Bailey ranks versus other kickers in the NFL currently?

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

So are you saying role players can't make a huge difference?

Im saying a kicker no matter how you classify him can make a huge difference. When the guy who typically scores the most points for your football team over the season is viewed as simply a role player . . . . . . . . . . . . . well, he just might be a lil more than just a role player.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

You're fighting a losing battle, bro. No point in using reason with certain posters. They'll reply with some bass ackwards comment that makes absolutely no sense to anyone but them.

This, coming from you?

 

[Manwiththeplan]

Im saying a kicker no matter how you classify him can make a huge difference.

Role players can make a huge difference. Even with the two basketball examples I gave earlier, it was two role players who make a huge difference. Still curious where you rank Bailey among kickers.

When the guy who typically scores the most points for your football team over the season is viewed as simply a role player . . . . . . . . . . . . . well, he just might be a lil more than just a role player.

You know who led the 2009 Dallas Cowboys in points? David Buehler

Even an average kicker will get quite a few points from extra points. And while a below average kicker will miss some, an average, not even the good ones, just average ones tend to go years with out missing one.