Straight talk about Greg Ellis

[jterrell]

Sorry- he has never lived up to being the #8 pick. A top 10 Pick should have at least a few pro bowls on his resume. ellis has never been close. A top 10 pick should be one of the league leaders- Ellis has never been close. A top 10 pick should be a real game changer- Ellis has never been close. He has been good and solid and no more. Longevity is not everything- Vinny anyone?

That argument would ok except it is vague, flawed, doesn't apply to real NFL scenarios and makes no real sense.....

One of the very weakest arguments about Ellis is that he doesn't produce like a top 10 pick. The argument has been broken down many times and has been shown lacking each time. This version is even weaker than most because it is so ridiculously generic.

Top 10 picks are not even guaranteed to make teams, much less lead teams in sacks for 6 years.

Not only that but each draft is different. An 8th selection is one draft does not equal the 8th slot in another. Greg Ellis was part of a very weak draft class.

Top 10 draft picks at DE from 1998 to 2003:
1998:
3 Andre Wadsworth Cardinals Florida State
6 Grant Wistrom Rams Nebraska
8 Greg Ellis Cowboys North Carolina

1999:
NONE -- first 3 DE's drafted were Ekuban, Lamar Ling and Dimitrius Underwood

2000:
1 Courtney Brown Browns Penn State

2001:
4 Justin Smith Bengals Missouri
7 Andre Carter 49ers California
10 Jamal Reynolds Packers Florida State

2002:
2 Julius Peppers Panthers North Carolina

2003:
9 Kevin Williams Vikings Oklahoma State(Moved to DT)
10 Terrell Suggs Ravens Arizona State(Moved to OLB)


NOW TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREG ELLIS UNDERACHEVED?????

1 player in that list is markedly better than him. A guy taken 2nd overall.

 

[Doomsday101]

when has Ellis ever been a leader? Having the most experience does not make one the leader. It's time for one of the young guys to step up.

Listening to players on the defense I would say Ellis is the leader of the defense. I like Ellis but have maintained I don't want any player who does not want to be here. I think that was a great thing Payton did when he took over the Saints, he weeded out guys who did not want to be there.

 

[Jarv]

Listening to players on the defense I would say Ellis is the leader of the defense. I like Ellis but have maintained I don't want any player who does not want to be here. I think that was a great thing Payton did when he took over the Saints, he weeded out guys who did not want to be there.

I think (I have no way of really knowing) that Ellis thinks the Cowboys don't want him here, not the other way around.

I admire Greg and so do his teamates.

 

[adamknite]

That argument would ok except it is vague, flawed, doesn't apply to real NFL scenarios and makes no real sense.....

One of the very weakest arguments about Ellis is that he doesn't produce like a top 10 pick. The argument has been broken down many times and has been shown lacking each time. This version is even weaker than most because it is so ridiculously generic.

Top 10 picks are not even guaranteed to make teams, much less lead teams in sacks for 6 years.

Not only that but each draft is different. An 8th selection is one draft does not equal the 8th slot in another. Greg Ellis was part of a very weak draft class.

Top 10 draft picks at DE from 1998 to 2003:
1998:
3 Andre Wadsworth Cardinals Florida State
6 Grant Wistrom Rams Nebraska
8 Greg Ellis Cowboys North Carolina

1999:
NONE -- first 3 DE's drafted were Ekuban, Lamar Ling and Dimitrius Underwood

2000:
1 Courtney Brown Browns Penn State

2001:
4 Justin Smith Bengals Missouri
7 Andre Carter 49ers California
10 Jamal Reynolds Packers Florida State

2002:
2 Julius Peppers Panthers North Carolina

2003:
9 Kevin Williams Vikings Oklahoma State(Moved to DT)
10 Terrell Suggs Ravens Arizona State(Moved to OLB)


NOW TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREG ELLIS UNDERACHEVED?????

1 player in that list is markedly better than him. A guy taken 2nd overall.

again with the good points?

even though I'd say 2 players on that list are better than Ellis, Suggs and Peppers. With Justin Smith probably better also, but that one is up for debate. Other than that, good stuff.

 

[Doomsday101]

I think (I have no way of really knowing) that Ellis thinks the Cowboys don't want him here, not the other way around.

I admire Greg and so do his teamates.

I think your right but Jones has to do right by the team overall and giving Ellis more money is not in the cards. I think Jones learned the hard way about extending contracts and giving bonuses to players over 30 coming off injuries. He did that with Johnston,Novacheck and Haley and it ended up hurting the team. If Ellis can tone it down accept his role with the team then I would love to have him back but if not then I think it is time to move on

 

[WoodysGirl]

Sorry- he has never lived up to being the #8 pick. A top 10 Pick should have at least a few pro bowls on his resume. ellis has never been close. A top 10 pick should be one of the league leaders- Ellis has never been close. A top 10 pick should be a real game changer- Ellis has never been close. He has been good and solid and no more. Longevity is not everything- Vinny anyone?

The lack of pro bowls is a dumb argument, IMO. So far Newman hasn't been voted to the pro bowl and he's a top 10 pick. Would you say he's a disappointment. The closest he came has been at alternate. If pro bowls is the standard to which we hold, then so far he's been a failure.

JT made some very solid points in his post. Production matters. And Greg has produced. Forget the whining, the lack of outside accolades and such, for the 'boys, he's always produced. I expect him to continue doing so.

 

[superpunk]

That argument would ok except it is vague, flawed, doesn't apply to real NFL scenarios and makes no real sense.....

One of the very weakest arguments about Ellis is that he doesn't produce like a top 10 pick. The argument has been broken down many times and has been shown lacking each time. This version is even weaker than most because it is so ridiculously generic.

Top 10 picks are not even guaranteed to make teams, much less lead teams in sacks for 6 years.

Not only that but each draft is different. An 8th selection is one draft does not equal the 8th slot in another. Greg Ellis was part of a very weak draft class.

Top 10 draft picks at DE from 1998 to 2003:
1998:
3 Andre Wadsworth Cardinals Florida State
6 Grant Wistrom Rams Nebraska
8 Greg Ellis Cowboys North Carolina

1999:
NONE -- first 3 DE's drafted were Ekuban, Lamar Ling and Dimitrius Underwood

2000:
1 Courtney Brown Browns Penn State

2001:
4 Justin Smith Bengals Missouri
7 Andre Carter 49ers California
10 Jamal Reynolds Packers Florida State

2002:
2 Julius Peppers Panthers North Carolina

2003:
9 Kevin Williams Vikings Oklahoma State(Moved to DT)
10 Terrell Suggs Ravens Arizona State(Moved to OLB)


NOW TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREG ELLIS UNDERACHEVED?????

1 player in that list is markedly better than him. A guy taken 2nd overall.

It's a nice post, JT - and has alot of merit.

But don't you think using the failures of others as justification for Ellis' performance is a bit of a fallacy? I mean, regardless of what others did, Ellis was a #8 pick. As a franchise, you expect alot out of a guy picked that high for that much money. When you pick in the top 10, you're expecting a top-flight player. Just because other players picked in similar spots failed doesn't make Ellis' mid-level production excusable, anymore than Ryan Leaf failing would justify failure by JaMarcus Russell.

We got a decent player at #8. I'm sure everyone was expecting more than "decent", though. /twocents/

 

[YosemiteSam]

Due to all circumstances involved. I would try to trade him just get to something out of it. That might be hard considering his age combined with the injury. After that I would offer to release Ellis from his contract and go into free agency. If he declined that option, I would tell him to stop whinning. He signed the contract and we gave him a chance to get out of it. The Cowboys owe him only what he signed his contract for. He has already been paid his guaranteed money and shut the hell up.

 

[Jarv]

It's a nice post, JT - and has alot of merit.

But don't you think using the failures of others as justification for Ellis' performance is a bit of a fallacy? I mean, regardless of what others did, Ellis was a #8 pick. As a franchise, you expect alot out of a guy picked that high for that much money. When you pick in the top 10, you're expecting a top-flight player. Just because other players picked in similar spots failed doesn't make Ellis' mid-level production excusable, anymore than Ryan Leaf failing would justify failure by JaMarcus Russell.

We got a decent player at #8. I'm sure everyone was expecting more than "decent", though. /twocents/

COULD BE (not saying it is, but could be??) the product of the system he was in for years (read and react) ? When compared to others, as JT did, yes he is behind Peppers.

But when you take a top 10 pick and he leads or ties team lead (in sacks) for 6 six years with the likes of Glover and Ware on his team...That sounds like an overall team problem and not just Ellis. Glover never got more sacks than Ellis here, was that because he (Glover) sucks or a result of the system ?

 

[Crown Royal]

I wish people wouldn't evaluate players based on their draft position. The best thing I learned during Parcells' tenure was to 'forget where you aquired the player.' By the time they are in training camp, they are all rookies, not a 1st rounder, second, 2 4ths, etc. They are all equal.

A player who has been good and productive his entire career shouldn't be judged based on where he was drafted. By that time, his draft position should be a thing of the past.

 

[superpunk]

COULD BE (not saying it is, but could be??) the product of the system he was in for years (read and react) ? When compared to others, as JT did, yes he is behind Peppers.

But when you take a top 10 pick and he leads or ties team lead (in sacks) for 6 six years with the likes of Glover and Ware on his team...That sounds like an overall team problem and not just Ellis. Glover never got more sacks than Ellis here, was that because he (Glover) sucks or a result of the system ?

With the pass rushers we've had, leading this team in sacks is not so impressive. Consider that last year, playing the same style defense, DeMarcus Ware notched 11 sacks - more than Ellis has ever achieved, in his second year in the league.

The same trend follows in that line of reasoning. Being the best of a bad bunch isn't really an accomplishment.

 

[Jarv]

With the pass rushers we've had, leading this team in sacks is not so impressive. Consider that last year, playing the same style defense, DeMarcus Ware notched 11 sacks - more than Ellis has ever achieved, in his second year in the league.

The same trend follows in that line of reasoning. Being the best of a bad bunch isn't really an accomplishment.

He also had no other rushers to help take the spotlight off of Ellis. OC's basically figured if we game planned to stop Ellis's rush we have no others.

Goes both ways.

What did you think of Glovers time here, you must think he really sucked, huh ?

 

[WoodysGirl]

I wish people wouldn't evaluate players based on their draft position. The best thing I learned during Parcells' tenure was to 'forget where you aquired the player.' By the time they are in training camp, they are all rookies, not a 1st rounder, second, 2 4ths, etc. They are all equal.

A player who has been good and productive his entire career shouldn't be judged based on where he was drafted. By that time, his draft position should be a thing of the past.

Not if you still have the "I-wish-we-had-got-Moss" syndrome.

But I do agree. It's like, it's his fault that he was drafted #8 overall.

 

[superpunk]

He also had no other rushers to help take the spotlight off of Ellis. OC's basically figured if we game planned to stop Ellis's rush we have no others.

Goes both ways.

What did you think of Glovers time here, you must think he really sucked, huh ?

Why do people do that?

Why on earth would you ask me a question, and then supply your own answer, based on what you think that I think? Is this some effective debate technique in bizarro-world?

To answer the question you posed, and subsequently answered for no apparent reason, I thought Glover's time here was very solid. Notching that many sacks for a DT in our system is impressive. That has little to nothing to do with expectations for Greg Ellis. Great pass rushers don't need attention drawn away from them - they'll get theirs regardless. Who plays opposite Derrick Burgess? Aaron Kampman? Who played across from Strahan, White, etc?

Greg Ellis has been a solid player, definitely. But not quite what I expected as such a high draft pick.

 

[burmafrd]

WG- Notice that you left out the other points I made. Lawyering again.
JT- It was not vague- unless you know nothing about football.
Using other FAILURES to justify Ellis is a losing game anyway you look at it.

What are EXPECTATIONS when drafting in the top 10?

I do recall that being a big topic- especially with the possible one we have next year? Franchise QB, RB, CB, etc. Ellis has NOT been a Peppers or even close to it. That is what you EXPECT from a TOP 10 PICK.

 

[Doomsday101]

WG- Notice that you left out the other points I made. Lawyering again.
JT- It was not vague- unless you know nothing about football.
Using other FAILURES to justify Ellis is a losing game anyway you look at it.

What are EXPECTATIONS when drafting in the top 10?

I do recall that being a big topic- especially with the possible one we have next year? Franchise QB, RB, CB, etc. Ellis has NOT been a Peppers or even close to it. That is what you EXPECT from a TOP 10 PICK.

That is what the expectation are but being a good steady player for many years is what we got. While you may hope for more I don't consider Ellis a failure.

 

[dallasfan]

Absolutely, let's pay an aging paranoid whinebag with a devastating injury a ton of money and give him the contract extension at the expense of holding back other up and coming talented defenders on the roster.

Ellis has made a great living in the NFL. If he were smart he would take on a situational pass rushing role for the money he is making. But no, he believes he is entitled to feed on the afterglow of his accomplishments.

he doesn't make a ton of money, and I never said give him an extension.

 

[jterrell]

It's a nice post, JT - and has alot of merit.

But don't you think using the failures of others as justification for Ellis' performance is a bit of a fallacy? I mean, regardless of what others did, Ellis was a #8 pick. As a franchise, you expect alot out of a guy picked that high for that much money. When you pick in the top 10, you're expecting a top-flight player. Just because other players picked in similar spots failed doesn't make Ellis' mid-level production excusable, anymore than Ryan Leaf failing would justify failure by JaMarcus Russell.

We got a decent player at #8. I'm sure everyone was expecting more than "decent", though. /twocents/

Thanks for the thoughtful reply here.

I understand the larger perception is a top 10 player should set the world on fire. I truly despise flawed dogma though and this it to a tee. Half of the top 10 picks are hardly ever heard from again after they are drafted. The league only has so many Pro Bowl slots and so many sure-fire studs at each position. Rookie classes add very little to that each season. DE is especially hard to fill.


The issue is the Dallas Cowboys were sitting at pick 8 in 1998. They took whom they thought was the best player who would not end up in jail and also play a position of need. We were woefully short at DE and had to get one somewhere. Ultimately we drafted DE first twice in a row. Greg Ellis was the first of those.

Ellis has been an above average player at a key position of extreme need. He has been our best DE and best pass rusher until last season and was right with Ware in both areas until he was injured. Does Ware suck? Was Ware a bad pick?

NFL teams win with guys like Greg Ellis. He is an every down DE. He was pushed to OLB and exceeded expectations. The guy can play football for any team in any scheme.

And this is about judging Ellis versus other guys drafted at his position in the top 10. You have to get DEs somewhere. Most of them will not be superstars. I'd love to have drafted Julius Peppers. He was clearly the best player in his draft class. We weren't near him and wouldn't have been near him had we selected 8th. But look at again at the DE's in those next few drafts. While Ellis was leading us in sacks guys like Ekubust/Andre Carter were being drafted.

Justin Smith is probably the best comparison to Ellis currently. He was taken 4th overall. He is extremely solid overall like Ellis but has not garnered top recognition as he has not busted double digit sacks. No one in Cincy seems to be complaining. He stops the run and nets about 8 sacks per season. That is very good production.

The Ryan Leaf example is a great point maker. Failing to play at all, tearing a team apart and costing your team millions upon millions makes a guy a bust, underachiever and sets a team back. Playing below market value and for years being the best player on your team at the position is a large, large leap from that graveyard.

 

[jterrell]

With the pass rushers we've had, leading this team in sacks is not so impressive. Consider that last year, playing the same style defense, DeMarcus Ware notched 11 sacks - more than Ellis has ever achieved, in his second year in the league.

The same trend follows in that line of reasoning. Being the best of a bad bunch isn't really an accomplishment.

Yet Ellis had more sacks than Ware when he was injured.

 

[Dhragon]

COULD BE (not saying it is, but could be??) the product of the system he was in for years (read and react) ? When compared to others, as JT did, yes he is behind Peppers.

But when you take a top 10 pick and he leads or ties team lead (in sacks) for 6 six years with the likes of Glover and Ware on his team...That sounds like an overall team problem and not just Ellis. Glover never got more sacks than Ellis here, was that because he (Glover) sucks or a result of the system ?

Very good point and one hard to refute. Ellis has been the best pressure player on our team for years before we got Ware. He's done pretty well for himself and for the Cowboys.