Straight talk about Greg Ellis

[Jarv]

Exactly. This "not living up to pick x" talk is completely absurd.

Ellis was drafted almost a decade ago and he's now on a very cheap contract. Where he was drafted means less than zero at this point.

Funny, when Anthony Henry gets burned I don't see people saying, "Oh well, that's okay, he was only a fourth round pick."

Lol...Touche bro !

Some of these guys think that Ellis is a bust unless he gets 15 sacks a year. Sheesh he led our team in sacks for 6 years (with no help from scheme or other elite players opposite him) and thats a bust to them.

 

[L-O-Jete]

I think we're all pretty familiar by now with how Ellis finishes out seasons. Ineffective or on the sideline, for the most part.



That's all very fair. I still don't think you can use other player's failings as justification. To me, the bottom line is what you expected versus what you got. Seeing that others failed doesn't really temper the feeling that you should have gotten more from an 8th pick. Let's not pretend Ellis has been playing entirely below market value. When he signed his deal, it was very reasonable and fitting. He likely wouldn't have gotten more elsewhere due to his injury and such. He got what he deserved from us, and I guess so far has lived up to that contract - there's nothing in it about being a whiny girl, probably.

There's a diffrence between living up to your expectations and being a failure.

 

[superpunk]

There's a diffrence between living up to your expectations and being a failure.

I think that's what I have tried to carefully expound upon in my posts in this thread.

 

[L-O-Jete]

Jterrel

As was pointed out by others- using other players FAILURES to justify Ellis is a losing game.

Top 10 picks are top 10 picks- YOU might want to try and hedge and try and justify things- bottom line is that Ellis has not lived up to what is expected of a top 10 pick and nothing you can say changes that. A top 10 pick is supposed to do much more. allyour arguement does is show that Ellis is not quite as much of a failure as other players have been. Losing game again.

WG- notice that you fixate on the Pro Bowl and do not want to talk about much of anything else. How about the expectations of a #8 pick? How about the lack of double digit sacks and the ability to dominate games?

I think you have to look at each draft individually, that draft was pretty weak, so a ten year starter, team leader in sacks for 6 of those years (2 diminished by injuries) and Def. captain seems pretty good to me, not a failure at all, much better than the other DE's taken. Where there guys picked later with gaudy numbers... yes, but those were surprises and/or big risks (Moss).

 

[L-O-Jete]

I think that's what I have tried to carefully expound upon in my posts in this thread.

Wait... didn't you call Ellis a failure?

 

[WoodysGirl]

I have never been satisfied with Roy or Ellis. Some people have low expectations, I guess.

Jterrel: you still don't get it. A top 10 pick SHOULD dominate at least some games and be a game changer. That is what those picks SHOULD do. the fact that many fail to do so means NOTHING. Your argument means NOTHING.
If you have low expectations of a #8 pick that is your problem.

Or some people have unrealistic expectations.

 

[superpunk]

Wait... didn't you call Ellis a failure?

Negative, ghost rider.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

That argument would ok except it is vague, flawed, doesn't apply to real NFL scenarios and makes no real sense.....

One of the very weakest arguments about Ellis is that he doesn't produce like a top 10 pick. The argument has been broken down many times and has been shown lacking each time. This version is even weaker than most because it is so ridiculously generic.

Top 10 picks are not even guaranteed to make teams, much less lead teams in sacks for 6 years.

Not only that but each draft is different. An 8th selection is one draft does not equal the 8th slot in another. Greg Ellis was part of a very weak draft class.

Top 10 draft picks at DE from 1998 to 2003:
1998:
3 Andre Wadsworth Cardinals Florida State
6 Grant Wistrom Rams Nebraska
8 Greg Ellis Cowboys North Carolina

1999:
NONE -- first 3 DE's drafted were Ekuban, Lamar Ling and Dimitrius Underwood

2000:
1 Courtney Brown Browns Penn State

2001:
4 Justin Smith Bengals Missouri
7 Andre Carter 49ers California
10 Jamal Reynolds Packers Florida State

2002:
2 Julius Peppers Panthers North Carolina

2003:
9 Kevin Williams Vikings Oklahoma State(Moved to DT)
10 Terrell Suggs Ravens Arizona State(Moved to OLB)


NOW TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREG ELLIS UNDERACHEVED?????

1 player in that list is markedly better than him. A guy taken 2nd overall.

It's all about what Ellis has done for this team. Not what happened somewhere else for someone else.
This is basic logic. O, Satan is at work again, I see!

 

[Zimmy Lives]

This is a very entertaining post but it reads much more like a daily dose of Dilbert than a football opine. Much more PFT than serious football study.

Fallacies with Greg Ellis:

He didn't live up to top 10 draft status. This has been proven time and again. Ellis was the 3rd DE taken in his own draft and is the only one still playing in the NFL. He owes no apologies for his production.

He makes a chunk?: Ellis makes a pittance by NFL standards much less veteran NFL starter standards. If he broke both legs and some team signed him out of pure compassion they'd pay his almost half his salary on a minimum deal.

Ellis' injury is sooooo serious: Greg Ellis is already running. His injury is serious but it has little chance of ending his career. Greg Ellis is not Kevin Smith. This isn't 1993.

Ellis' production: Greg Ellis can go out and get 5 sacks in 10 games and that is a pretty poor year for him. For the Cowboys that would finish 2nd in sacks almost any previous season.

Wade vs. Parcells/Zimmer: Its funny that all these guys who had less than 3 sacks are going to see marked improvement while the guys who actually get sacks will not. That makes zero sense. If the non-pass rushers are going to get better rushing the passer you better believe the pass rushers are as well.

Concerning Greg Ellis, one thing is for certain: He sure has a big problem with insecurity. However, as Silverbear said, he always shows up to play. This team needs him if only for that reason.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

I have never been satisfied with Roy or Ellis. Some people have low expectations, I guess.

Jterrel: you still don't get it. A top 10 pick SHOULD dominate at least some games and be a game changer. That is what those picks SHOULD do. the fact that many fail to do so means NOTHING. Your argument means NOTHING.
If you have low expectations of a #8 pick that is your problem.

That is why teams are HAPPY when they get an early pick in the first round!
That is why teams are SAD when they get a late pick in the first round!
That is why we expect A LOT from a Top 10 pick.
Elementary. Basic. A no-brainer just like me.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

OK, I have been swayed by the pro-Ellis gang, um I mean, crowd.
Because as you all put it so well:
1. Whiney Greg Ellis was drafted during a weak draft.
2. Poverty-stricken Ellis is playing dirt cheap.
3. It was the scheme, not the player!
4. We did not expect much from the No. 8 pick.
5. Good god, y'all, he has led the team six times in sacks! (Um I cannot remember who he played opposite the other side of the line. Maybe a Pepper or some great guy like that.)
6. He is a team leader!!! Yes, the team places palms on his path as he enters Valley ranch.
7. He shows up to play (Is that in the contract???????? Oh, good!!)
9. Satan doesn't want him to succeed (that one is mine cause I have no other explanation for his lack of Pro Bowls.)
10. Jerry once said Ellis could be trusted to baby-sit others' kids. Jerry also said 500 other coaches could coach the Cowboys. So true.

Well, my work is done here. I suffer you, um, I mean I suffer for all of you to bring you the supreme truth. No thanks are necessary.

 

[L-O-Jete]

OK, I have been swayed by the pro-Ellis gang, um I mean, crowd.
Because as you all put it so well:
1. Whiney Greg Ellis was drafted during a weak draft.
2. Poverty-stricken Ellis is playing dirt cheap.
3. It was the scheme, not the player!
4. We did not expect much from the No. 8 pick.
5. Good god, y'all, he has led the team six times in sacks! (Um I cannot remember who he played opposite the other side of the line. Maybe a Pepper or some great guy like that.)
6. He is a team leader!!! Yes, the team places palms on his path as he enters Valley ranch.
7. He shows up to play (Is that in the contract???????? Oh, good!!)
9. Satan doesn't want him to succeed (that one is mine cause I have no other explanation for his lack of Pro Bowls.)
10. Jerry once said Ellis could be trusted to baby-sit others' kids. Jerry also said 500 other coaches could coach the Cowboys. So true.

Well, my work is done here. I suffer you, um, I mean I suffer for all of you to bring you the supreme truth. No thanks are necessary.

You are absolutly right Ellis is the reason we haven't won a SB!!!

 

[baj1dallas]

Concerning Greg Ellis, one thing is for certain: He sure has a big problem with insecurity. However, as Silverbear said, he always shows up to play. This team needs him if only for that reason.

It would bother me if I was 31 and had to realistically consider that my career might be over.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

You are absolutly right Ellis is the reason we haven't won a SB!!!

Is beautiful in its simplicity.

 

[L-O-Jete]

Is beautiful in its simplicity.

I hear he wears eagles underwear... seriously check his stas vs. them and the rest of the nfl!

 

[Vtwin]

How did the defense do after Elils went down last year?

 

[jterrell]

That is why teams are HAPPY when they get an early pick in the first round!
That is why teams are SAD when they get a late pick in the first round!
That is why we expect A LOT from a Top 10 pick.
Elementary. Basic. A no-brainer just like me.

Ahh again with the merry-go-round.

This is like arguing with a woman.

Basic logic goes like this:

1. I do not care how you "feel". Not in a rude or callous way but in a way that says it has no meaning for me because I can't define it.
2. Greg Ellis can be compared to his peers in draft selection and position not your "feelings". Unless you are debating yourself use a scale we can all read.
3. Grown men should use logic not their "feelings" to arrive at a conclusion.

Nothing any of the anti-Ellis contingent has said means anything except the one oft-repeated comment from superpunk that Ellis has sucked at the end of seasons. At least that's an attempt to draw on a football actuality. The rest of it is hogwash.

To sum up the anti-Ellis argument:
He sucks and should be cut because 8 sacks per season isn't enough. We should have drafted a guy who dominates games in the 8th spot even if that player wasn't in that draft class because well I expect that player to dominate regardless. I wanted him to be a star and get 12 sacks a season, he didn't so he sucks. The scheme can be blamed for every other player's lack of sacks but Greg Ellis is immune because he should have gotten 12 sacks regardless of scheme. The 8th pick in the draft should be able to get 12 sacks a season and beat double teams and win Super Bowls. He was also a team captain with Quincy here and let him use drugs. Its all his fault Quincy is suspended from the Arena League 2. One person stood up and argued against Parcells without any jersey throwing, but Ellis, only did so in whines. The manly thing to do is complain about him after he is gone. Ellis cries too much so I am going to re-double his efforts with twice as many cries for him to be cut even though it is likely he will provide the most production per dollar of any Cowboys Player. We should pay Witten, Roy Williams, Terence Newman all 200 mil bonuses but tossing Greg Ellis 3 million is a waste of cash. We were a highly ranked defense with Ellis and a poorly ranked one without but thats because all the guys forgot how to play football at the end of the year.

 

[Jarv]

Ahh again with the merry-go-round.

This is like arguing with a woman.

Basic logic goes like this:

1. I do not care how you "feel". Not in a rude or callous way but in a way that says it has no meaning for me because I can't define it.
2. Greg Ellis can be compared to his peers in draft selection and position not your "feelings". Unless you are debating yourself use a scale we can all read.
3. Grown men should use logic not their "feelings" to arrive at a conclusion.

Nothing any of the anti-Ellis contingent has said means anything except the one oft-repeated comment from superpunk that Ellis has sucked at the end of seasons. At least that's an attempt to draw on a football actuality. The rest of it is hogwash.

To sum up the anti-Ellis argument:
He sucks and should be cut because 8 sacks per season isn't enough. We should have drafted a guy who dominates games in the 8th spot even if that player wasn't in that draft class because well I expect that player to dominate regardless. I wanted him to be a star and get 12 sacks a season, he didn't so he sucks. The scheme can be blamed for every other player's lack of sacks but Greg Ellis is immune because he should have gotten 12 sacks regardless of scheme. The 8th pick in the draft should be able to get 12 sacks a season and beat double teams and win Super Bowls. He was also a team captain with Quincy here and let him use drugs. Its all his fault Quincy is suspended from the Arena League 2. One person stood up and argued against Parcells without any jersey throwing, but Ellis, only did so in whines. The manly thing to do is complain about him after he is gone. Ellis cries too much so I am going to re-double his efforts with twice as many cries for him to be cut even though it is likely he will provide the most production per dollar of any Cowboys Player. We should pay Witten, Roy Williams, Terence Newman all 200 mil bonuses but tossing Greg Ellis 3 million is a waste of cash. We were a highly ranked defense with Ellis and a poorly ranked one without but thats because all the guys forgot how to play football at the end of the year.

Lol...Post of the day, good one bro !

 

[WoodysGirl]

Ahh again with the merry-go-round.

This is like arguing with a woman.

Hey!!! I'm on your side.

How about saying, "arguing with a child."

 

[Crown Royal]

Hey!!! I'm on your side.

How about saying, "arguing with a child."

Because I am on your side too.