Straight talk about Greg Ellis

[Crown Royal]

Yet Ellis had more sacks than Ware when he was injured.

Ellis was still a better overall pass rusher than Ware when he went down. I don't know if it would have remained that way, but it was the truth.

 

[jterrell]

I do recall that being a big topic- especially with the possible one we have next year? Franchise QB, RB, CB, etc. Ellis has NOT been a Peppers or even close to it. That is what you EXPECT from a TOP 10 PICK.

No that is what you expect.
Many here are expecting a top 5 or possible even first overall selection. Peppers went 2nd. The different between 2 and 8 extreme in the draft.

Do I really have to assault you with more facts that you can ignore and keep spouting semi-conscious opinions?

Look over the last 30 number 8 picks and tell me how many made Pro Bowls....

Greg Ellis hasn't been a failure; your arguments and line of thinking have.

 

[superpunk]

Yet Ellis had more sacks than Ware when he was injured.

I think we're all pretty familiar by now with how Ellis finishes out seasons. Ineffective or on the sideline, for the most part.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply here.

I understand the larger perception is a top 10 player should set the world on fire. I truly despise flawed dogma though and this it to a tee. Half of the top 10 picks are hardly ever heard from again after they are drafted. The league only has so many Pro Bowl slots and so many sure-fire studs at each position. Rookie classes add very little to that each season. DE is especially hard to fill.


The issue is the Dallas Cowboys were sitting at pick 8 in 1998. They took whom they thought was the best player who would not end up in jail and also play a position of need. We were woefully short at DE and had to get one somewhere. Ultimately we drafted DE first twice in a row. Greg Ellis was the first of those.

Ellis has been an above average player at a key position of extreme need. He has been our best DE and best pass rusher until last season and was right with Ware in both areas until he was injured. Does Ware suck? Was Ware a bad pick?

NFL teams win with guys like Greg Ellis. He is an every down DE. He was pushed to OLB and exceeded expectations. The guy can play football for any team in any scheme.

And this is about judging Ellis versus other guys drafted at his position in the top 10. You have to get DEs somewhere. Most of them will not be superstars. I'd love to have drafted Julius Peppers. He was clearly the best player in his draft class. We weren't near him and wouldn't have been near him had we selected 8th. But look at again at the DE's in those next few drafts. While Ellis was leading us in sacks guys like Ekubust/Andre Carter were being drafted.

Justin Smith is probably the best comparison to Ellis currently. He was taken 4th overall. He is extremely solid overall like Ellis but has not garnered top recognition as he has not busted double digit sacks. No one in Cincy seems to be complaining. He stops the run and nets about 8 sacks per season. That is very good production.

The Ryan Leaf example is a great point maker. Failing to play at all, tearing a team apart and costing your team millions upon millions makes a guy a bust, underachiever and sets a team back. Playing below market value and for years being the best player on your team at the position is a large, large leap from that graveyard.

That's all very fair. I still don't think you can use other player's failings as justification. To me, the bottom line is what you expected versus what you got. Seeing that others failed doesn't really temper the feeling that you should have gotten more from an 8th pick. Let's not pretend Ellis has been playing entirely below market value. When he signed his deal, it was very reasonable and fitting. He likely wouldn't have gotten more elsewhere due to his injury and such. He got what he deserved from us, and I guess so far has lived up to that contract - there's nothing in it about being a whiny girl, probably.

 

[Jarv]

Why do people do that?

Why on earth would you ask me a question, and then supply your own answer, based on what you think that I think? Is this some effective debate technique in bizarro-world?

To answer the question you posed, and subsequently answered for no apparent reason, I thought Glover's time here was very solid. Notching that many sacks for a DT in our system is impressive. That has little to nothing to do with expectations for Greg Ellis. Great pass rushers don't need attention drawn away from them - they'll get theirs regardless. Who plays opposite Derrick Burgess? Aaron Kampman? Who played across from Strahan, White, etc?

Greg Ellis has been a solid player, definitely. But not quite what I expected as such a high draft pick.

Did you know Glover got multiple double digit sacks on another team (another scheme) before he came here ? He never sniffed that here in our scheme.

Another question, do you think that Ellis might have been a better sack producer in another scheme, maybe on another team, than he was here in our scheme ?

 

[WoodysGirl]

WG- Notice that you left out the other points I made. Lawyering again.
JT- It was not vague- unless you know nothing about football.
Using other FAILURES to justify Ellis is a losing game anyway you look at it.

What are EXPECTATIONS when drafting in the top 10?

I do recall that being a big topic- especially with the possible one we have next year? Franchise QB, RB, CB, etc. Ellis has NOT been a Peppers or even close to it. That is what you EXPECT from a TOP 10 PICK.

Lawyering? How so? I addressed the most flawed part of your argument and then I stated what my opinion was on the matter.

Pro bowls or lack thereof should never be used as a barometer for how good a player is or what he means to his respective team. Newman and Roy are both top 10. Roy gets bashed around here like an UDFA and he's been to every pro bowl since he's been in the league, except 1. Newman OTOH hasn't been to one, not even as a replacement. Does that lessen what he's meant to the 'boys? No, but he gets bashed because he doesn't get a bunch of interceptions and make flashy plays.

Guys like Peppers come along very rarely, but it doesn't lessen Ellis' production and what he's produced for this team.

 

[superpunk]

Did you know Glover got multiple double digit sacks on another team (another scheme) before he came here ? He never sniffed that here in our scheme.

Another question, do you think that Ellis might have been a better sack producer in another scheme, maybe on another team, than he was here in our scheme ?

So we're back to just blaming the scheme?...... ok.

Ellis has never been a dominant pass rusher. That's what we were all looking for when we drafted him. His December disappearances are fantastic. It's simply about expectations vs. reality. He's been a solid player for us, that's about it. I certainly don't believe he's deserving of any special treatment now, for years of fantastic service, with regards to the OP.

 

[Jarv]

So we're back to just blaming the scheme?...... ok.

Ellis has never been a dominant pass rusher. That's what we were all looking for when we drafted him. His December disappearances are fantastic. It's simply about expectations vs. reality. He's been a solid player for us, that's about it. I certainly don't believe he's deserving of any special treatment now, for years of fantastic service, with regards to the OP.

Whats wrong with discussing a scheme ?

Glover is a true case in point that you conveniently ignore ? Multiple double digit sacks in one scheme and considerly less in our scheme ?

So do you think we should get about the same amount of sacks this year as a team ? Changing from BP's 2 gap to WP 1 gap attacking style ?

Does scheme and style make a difference in individual and team sacks in your opinion ?

Notice I tried not to answer the question for you this time, would really like to know your opinion.

 

[carphalen5150]

Greg Ellis is good value for his contract and I hope he can put his contract issues behind, focus on his rehab, and have a productive career.

As for Ellis being a leader...he is more of one by default here. The defense does not really have that magnetic personality that people flock to, so they voted the veteran as the captain. Generally a team leader would seem to put some team needs first, however over the last few years all I hear from Ellis are the great injustices that are happening to him. If I am a Cowboy defensive player I just gain so much from hearing my captain complain about schemes, playing time, salary, role, our draft, etc. I mean that screams leadership to me.

I honestly think that Newman is better suited for the role. He did not have any problem prodding team mates at the end of the season to get their stuff together.

 

[superpunk]

Whats wrong with discussing a scheme ?

Glover is a true case in point that you conveniently ignore ? Multiple double digit sacks in one scheme and considerly less in our scheme ?

So do you think we should get about the same amount of sacks this year as a team ? Changing from BP's 2 gap to WP 1 gap attacking style ?

Does scheme and style make a difference in individual and team sacks in your opinion ?

Notice I tried not to answer the question for you this time, would really like to know your opinion.

Glover was a veteran. Players' skills decline over time. He still posted very respectable results for a DT in our defense. There's nothing to be ashamed of with Glover.

I think we'll get more sacks because Wade blitzes more. It was posted on here that San Diego blitzed twice as much as we did last year. That alone should significantly increase our sack totals.

None of this matters, though, although I'm glad to answer the questions. It's all just blustering and dancing around the issue. There is no hypothetical scenario that can be thrown out there that makes Ellis' production any better. All it does is make for crazy argument, wherein your speculative answer is skewed in accord with your personal feelings. Maybe Ellis would have produced more elsewhere. Maybe he would have produced less. Does it matter? What has actually happened is that he's been decent, in reality.

Some people expected more.

 

[Jarv]

Glover was a veteran. Players' skills decline over time. He still posted very respectable results for a DT in our defense. There's nothing to be ashamed of with Glover.

I think we'll get more sacks because Wade blitzes more. It was posted on here that San Diego blitzed twice as much as we did last year. That alone should significantly increase our sack totals.

None of this matters, though, although I'm glad to answer the questions. It's all just blustering and dancing around the issue. There is no hypothetical scenario that can be thrown out there that makes Ellis' production any better. All it does is make for crazy argument, wherein your speculative answer is skewed in accord with your personal feelings. Maybe Ellis would have produced more elsewhere. Maybe he would have produced less. Does it matter? What has actually happened is that he's been decent, in reality.

Some people expected more.

I have expected more, to be honest, of our whole franchise over the last 10 years.

 

[CrazyCowboy]

Nice report--Ellis is doing good from all accounts in ref to his rehab work

 

[burmafrd]

Jterrel

As was pointed out by others- using other players FAILURES to justify Ellis is a losing game.

Top 10 picks are top 10 picks- YOU might want to try and hedge and try and justify things- bottom line is that Ellis has not lived up to what is expected of a top 10 pick and nothing you can say changes that. A top 10 pick is supposed to do much more. allyour arguement does is show that Ellis is not quite as much of a failure as other players have been. Losing game again.

WG- notice that you fixate on the Pro Bowl and do not want to talk about much of anything else. How about the expectations of a #8 pick? How about the lack of double digit sacks and the ability to dominate games?

 

[jterrell]

I think we're all pretty familiar by now with how Ellis finishes out seasons. Ineffective or on the sideline, for the most part.



That's all very fair. I still don't think you can use other player's failings as justification. To me, the bottom line is what you expected versus what you got. Seeing that others failed doesn't really temper the feeling that you should have gotten more from an 8th pick. Let's not pretend Ellis has been playing entirely below market value. When he signed his deal, it was very reasonable and fitting. He likely wouldn't have gotten more elsewhere due to his injury and such. He got what he deserved from us, and I guess so far has lived up to that contract - there's nothing in it about being a whiny girl, probably.

Bro, not sure what is so hard to grasp here.
It is not about the failing of any one or even large number of players.

It is about the actuality of what the draft produces in the top 10.
I am not talking about failed player's I am talking about what really occurred. I a talking about unrealistic expectations.

Its like a guy who thinks he will win the lottery by playing 2 dollars in tickets every night. You show him the rarity of his chance and he says, bah those are just all failures.....

Camp will start soon enough and Ellis will very likely hold his starting job once again and be a pass rushing force once again and when all is said and done it will still not be enough for some folks. Its a shame but it is what it is.

Let's hope Spencer has a better career than Ellis but if he only has a similar or slightly lesser career I'll be quite, quite happy. He could end up as an Ekubust.

 

[jterrell]

Jterrel

As was pointed out by others- using other players FAILURES to justify Ellis is a losing game.

Top 10 picks are top 10 picks- YOU might want to try and hedge and try and justify things- bottom line is that Ellis has not lived up to what is expected of a top 10 pick and nothing you can say changes that. A top 10 pick is supposed to do much more. allyour arguement does is show that Ellis is not quite as much of a failure as other players have been. Losing game again.

WG- notice that you fixate on the Pro Bowl and do not want to talk about much of anything else. How about the expectations of a #8 pick? How about the lack of double digit sacks and the ability to dominate games?

hopes and dreams on one hand and reality on the other.....

If you play your tired argument backwards your dreams come whirling up out of the drain....

VERY, VERY, VERY few NFL players dominate games. MOST top 10 but especially 5th through 10th picks will NOT dominate games.

You can live in whatever fantasy world you want but your expectations and those of anyone else have little to do with reality. In the real world Greg Ellis has lived up to his draft selection and been a very good football player.

Hopefully one day you'll join us on planet Earth where we can debate with actual facts and relying on some statistical or historical analysis not just a gleam in someone's romantic eye.

8th picks since 1998:
Greg Ellis

1999:
David Boston

2000:
Plaxico Burress

2001:
David Terrell

2002:
Roy Williams, Cowboys Safety

2003:
Jordan Gross

2004:
Deangelo Hall

2005:
Antrel Rolle

2006:
Donte Whitner

2007:
Jamaal Anderson

Tell me how many of those guys dominate games or even meet your expectations of the 8th pick in the draft???

If very few or none do perhaps it your perceptions which are at fault, not the players.....

 

[WoodysGirl]

WG- notice that you fixate on the Pro Bowl and do not want to talk about much of anything else.

I also note that you don't address any part of my posts, except the parts I don't address in yours. Just another dog chasing its tail.

[quote
How about the expectations of a #8 pick? How about the lack of double digit sacks and the ability to dominate games?[/quote]
This whole team has underachieved for 10 years, but when I look back at his overall production, I'm satisfied with what Ellis has produced for this team. I don't know how much clearer I can be.

How about the fact that Roy is a #8 pick and has achieved all the supposed expectations and accolades that a fan should want and yet he gets bashed for being overrated? How about the fact Newman gets no accolades, doesn't make big, flashy plays, but he's considered underrated?

Both are top #10 picks, but one is considered a disappointment and one isn't. I'm not redirecting the issue, I'm saying that while it's ok to have expectations, put some perspective on it.

Fan expectations vs fan reality. They're all driven by Sportscenter.

 

[burmafrd]

I have never been satisfied with Roy or Ellis. Some people have low expectations, I guess.

Jterrel: you still don't get it. A top 10 pick SHOULD dominate at least some games and be a game changer. That is what those picks SHOULD do. the fact that many fail to do so means NOTHING. Your argument means NOTHING.
If you have low expectations of a #8 pick that is your problem.

 

[tunahelper]

He can help as a situational pass rusher.

 

[Angus]

$2.5 mil is absolutely rock bottom cheap for a DE/LB in the NFL today.

This is Ellis' problem: With the new guys coming in, he's not going to get a shot to have a great few years at the end of his contract that will get him one last, big payday ala Marco Rivera.

He's not going anywhere for the time being, not at that price...

Yes, his contract is cheap. That's the reason he will be an attractive addition to a defensive end-deprived team and can command a better draft pick for Dallas in a trade.

Yes, that's his problem. That's why he'll welcome a trade.

Yes he is soon going somewhere else at that price because the price of keeping Ellis in Dallas includes limiting or getting rid of a young talent that can be more useful for years to come. Because of that, he will cost more to Dallas than to some other team that needs him more.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I wish people wouldn't evaluate players based on their draft position. The best thing I learned during Parcells' tenure was to 'forget where you aquired the player.' By the time they are in training camp, they are all rookies, not a 1st rounder, second, 2 4ths, etc. They are all equal.

A player who has been good and productive his entire career shouldn't be judged based on where he was drafted. By that time, his draft position should be a thing of the past.

Exactly. This "not living up to pick x" talk is completely absurd.

Ellis was drafted almost a decade ago and he's now on a very cheap contract. Where he was drafted means less than zero at this point.

Funny, when Anthony Henry gets burned I don't see people saying, "Oh well, that's okay, he was only a fourth round pick."

 

[Angus]

The trade deadline is not until October.

Ellis will have time during the regular season to show what he can do and what he may be worth. Some other team will have had time to be in critical need of a good defensive end.

Unless injuries cause Dallas to be in a bind, I expect Ellis to command a good price in a trade (that both he and Dallas will celebrate).