Takk > Taco or Taco > Takk

[waldoputty]

When did Atlanta become some great model for us to follow? It took them all these years post Julio gutting of the roster trade deal for them to be relevant. And there is no guarantee that they catch lightning in a bottle again.

You're being completely reactionary.

Atlanta will be fine as long as their QB plays up to his ability.
They did what any reasonable team would do.
Load up when their team is in contention.

Only the Cowboys would enter a complete backfield rebuild after 13-3.
All to save a few million in cap while tens of millions are available.
The cap has changed, but they are operating like they should have pre-2015.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

without a significant improve in the DL, we are in business for making the playoffs but losing because of the D.
that is about the worst thing that can happen - not win but get bad draft picks.

unlike us, atlanta and new england improved significantly via free agency and trades.
depth is great, but you need the stars to win it all.
even before the draft, we already had ~49 real players under contract and i am not counting Moore the DE.
we should focus on getting the star to get over the hump, not the quality of the 52nd or 53rd player on the roster.
all the draft successfully accomplished is to lower the mid-run salaries by getting DBs for cheap.
all the money saved - for what? especially when tens of millions of cap are available.

What I bolded is a myth. You need a stud QB or a stud defense to have a chance. More than anything you need great depth. You need players on special teams and the second team that can play against starters for other teams and at least hold their own. Because injuries happen in this league. If you put all your eggs in too few baskets you will end up decimated by injuries.

You are the typical Johnny come lately fan who buys the NFL's marketing and thinks that's what wins games. In reality, more games are lost than won. The team that makes the fewest mistakes wins more often than not. Jimmy Johnson knew that, Bill Belicheck knows that and Garrett knows that. Anybody who's ever won playing or coaching this game at any level knows that. It's the little things that matter. Eliminating mistakes is more important than making one or two big plays. Because if you eliminate mistakes, you eliminate big plays against you. The more talent you have across the board, the better chance to eliminate mistakes and force the other team into making mistakes - which is where big plays more often happen.

And you are so hung up on the money it's hilarious. Ask Green Bay about how to build a team. Ask Pittsburgh. How often are those teams trading up in the draft and how often are they spending big on outside free agents? How many times have the Eagles or Commanders outspent the league? What has it ever bought them? You can keep repeating yourself all you want, it doesn't make you any more right.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Here are the statistics for drafting in the 1st 3 rounds:
1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)
2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)
3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)

Even if you invest a 1st round in the DL, your chance of getting a mutlti-year starter is only 58% - which is hardly certainty.
That is only for a starter, not a star.
If you want to solve a problem, you throw resources at it like we did with the DB situation.
If we threw all 3 rounds at the DL, your chances become 58%+26%+27%
So you most likely get a starter, but still no guarantee of a star.

The DB debacle hijacked the offseason.
If Rodgers or some other QB beats us this year in the playoffs while smoking his victory cigar on a lawnchair in the backfield, we know who to blame.

This only confirms for me that you don't get how to build a team and you don't have a handle for how this team views its defensive line group. Right or wrong we have a handful of young players that the Cowboys are excited to develop. There was simply no room for 3 defensive lineman added to that room. And we don't need 3 starters on the line from this draft class.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Atlanta will be fine as long as their QB plays up to his ability.
They did what any reasonable team would do.
Load up when their team is in contention.

Only the Cowboys would enter a complete backfield rebuild after 13-3.
All to save a few million in cap while tens of millions are available.
The cap has changed, but they are operating like they should have pre-2015.

It wasn't to save money against the cap. It was to get better players and stay on budget. This team has given out a monster contract every year since 2010 and will do so again with Martin.

For some reason people don't value deals we give our own players like deals from outside to a free agent. Even though for us giving deals to the players we know best has been tremendously successful.

 

[waldoputty]

What I bolded is a myth. You need a stud QB or a stud defense to have a chance. More than anything you need great depth. You need players on special teams and the second team that can play against starters for other teams and at least hold their own. Because injuries happen in this league. If you put all your eggs in too few baskets you will end up decimated by injuries.

You are the typical Johnny come lately fan who buys the NFL's marketing and thinks that's what wins games. In reality, more games are lost than won. The team that makes the fewest mistakes wins more often than not. Jimmy Johnson knew that, Bill Belicheck knows that and Garrett knows that. Anybody who's ever won playing or coaching this game at any level knows that. It's the little things that matter. Eliminating mistakes is more important than making one or two big plays. Because if you eliminate mistakes, you eliminate big plays against you. The more talent you have across the board, the better chance to eliminate mistakes and force the other team into making mistakes - which is where big plays more often happen.

And you are so hung up on the money it's hilarious. Ask Green Bay about how to build a team. Ask Pittsburgh. How often are those teams trading up in the draft and how often are they spending big on outside free agents? How many times have the Eagles or Commanders outspent the league? What has it ever bought them? You can keep repeating yourself all you want, it doesn't make you any more right.

What you are describing is great for building the foundation.
Guess what, the foundation is already built.
We already have the depth.
We already had 49 real players on the roster before the draft and i am not even counting Moore the DL.
You cannot keep 60 players.
You need the couple cherries on top to get over the hump playing the top teams.
You need the daddy who demands double teams and make the DL overall more effective.

The small market teams did a great job with their budget.
Why constraint ourselves to a small market strategy.
The goal is to win, not show how smart we are by winning with one hand tied behind our back.

 

[waldoputty]

It wasn't to save money against the cap. It was to get better players and stay on budget. This team has given out a monster contract every year since 2010 and will do so again with Martin.

For some reason people don't value deals we give our own players like deals from outside to a free agent. Even though for us giving deals to the players we know best has been tremendously successful.

Stay on budget for what?
There is tens of millions left and not spent.
The refusal to stick by some beancounting exercise caused this debacle.

The focus of the offseason was hijacked to replace all those DBs.
The team could have kept one more or sign one decent DB so the draft could have been focused on the DL.

You cannot argue the statistics I posted.
The statistics tell us that we only get a starter from a 1st round pick 58% of the time.
And that may not even be in the rookie year.
More resources should have been spent on the DL.
Not some DBs that could be had in the 2nd round every year.

 

[waldoputty]

This only confirms for me that you don't get how to build a team and you don't have a handle for how this team views its defensive line group. Right or wrong we have a handful of young players that the Cowboys are excited to develop. There was simply no room for 3 defensive lineman added to that room. And we don't need 3 starters on the line from this draft class.

What a silly argument.
We dont have room for 3 DL just like we dont have room for 4 DBs.
You throw resources towards the problem and keep the best ones, just like with the DBs.

We need one starter.
I already gave you the statistics 101 on it.
58%+26%+27% - that is the chance for getting 1 starter by spending all 3 draft picks on the DL.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

What you are describing is great for building the foundation.
Guess what, the foundation is already built.
We already have the depth.
We already had 49 real players on the roster before the draft and i am not even counting Moore the DL.
You cannot keep 60 players.
You need the couple cherries on top to get over the hump playing the top teams.
You need the daddy who demands double teams and make the DL overall more effective.

The small market teams did a great job with their budget.
Why constraint ourselves to a small market strategy.
The goal is to win, not show how smart we are by winning with one hand tied behind our back.

With revenue sharing and TV money there is no such distinction between small market and large market.

If we upgraded five-seven of those 49 players isn't that better than upgrading one or two? Of course it is.

 

[dstew60105]

my strategy is to get a star player in the D where it counts - on the DL.
the team is close and you can only have 53 players.
the number 1 issue was the passrush until the DB issue hijacked the issue.
how quickly we forget what happened in the GB game.
all the little DBs can cover all they want if Rodgers could throw from his lawnchair.
the big picture is winning, not some stupid accounting exercise.

#1 issue was pass rush, followed VERY closely by secondary. If the choice was Tak or Taco/Lewis, then it's not even close. Taco/Lewis all day. Kinda like Fredrick/Williams was better then Floyd or Eric Reid. The object of the draft isn't one pick, but a strategy to build your roster.

 

[waldoputty]

With revenue sharing and TV money there is no such distinction between small market and large market.

If we upgraded five-seven of those 49 players isn't that better than upgrading one or two? Of course it is.

Teams like Green Bay and Pittsburgh dont like to throw money around.
Perhaps out of their small town mentality.
I dont see why we need to be constrained by their small town mentality in the new cap environment.

This is the chance of getting a starter from the draft picks.
I am not even saying an upgrade.
We should be focusing our resources on the real problem, not distract ourselves with self-inflicting wounds.

1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)
2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)
3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)

 

[Boom]

well, if the BTB blogger is correct, then they preferred Takk over Taco.
so in my view, that is the best chance to get a daddy.
i did not say FA mistake - they planned the whole thing.

i dont question the tactics, but i question the strategy.
mcclay executed the strategy really well.
but what orders were he given to adhere to?
the strategy seems to be driven by saving money rather than putting the best team together.
why save $ when tens of millions is available in cap space?

I didn't dispute valuation of Takk over Taco; that is a possibility. I asked about the Takk over Taco + R3 pick. You previously stated that they were forced into needing that R3 pick due to poor DB depth. I assume that means that they would have gladly taken Takk at the cost of a R3 pick if they would have prepared in FA for draft flexibility to move up.

If they didn't consider draft strategies during free agency and were forced to keep the R3 pick for a DB they didn't retain, then they did make a mistake in strategy. A large one. They preach draft flexibility and your scenario doesn't allow them to trade up.

 

[waldoputty]

#1 issue was pass rush, followed VERY closely by secondary. If the choice was Tak or Taco/Lewis, then it's not even close. Taco/Lewis all day. Kinda like Fredrick/Williams was better then Floyd or Eric Reid. The object of the draft isn't one pick, but a strategy to build your roster.

That is true when you are building the team, not trying to get the last major piece to win it all.

 

[waldoputty]

I didn't dispute valuation of Takk over Taco; that is a possibility. I asked about the Takk over Taco + R3 pick. You previously stated that they were forced into needing that R3 pick due to poor DB depth. I assume that means that they would have gladly taken Takk at the cost of a R3 pick if they would have prepared in FA for draft flexibility to move up.

If they didn't consider draft strategies during free agency and were forced to keep the R3 pick for a DB they didn't retain, then they did make a mistake in strategy. A large one. They preach draft flexibility and your scenario doesn't allow them to trade up.

It is not a matter of preparation.
They made a choice in the beginning.
They refused to bend even though all the FAs left.
Seems like a macho thing to show who is in charge and who is right.
Reminds me of the Murray RB thing.
Oh anyone can get 1000 yards behind our OL - true.
But the big picture was maximizing the running game to make Romo more efficient and the offense more explosive.
So to recover from that, we used #4 pick on Zeke and the running game is now great.

 

[PhillyCowboysFan]

i cannot believe that a well-known blogger at BTB would just make this up

Waldo don't be so naive. Journalists, some very famous and credible let alone internet bloggers lie for whatever reason. NBC's Brian Williams lied numerous times.

Here's a list of famous journalists caught in lies.

http://m.ranker.com/list/journalists-who-lied/mel-judson

 

[waldoputty]

Waldo don't be so naive. Journalists, some very famous and credible let alone internet bloggers lie for whatever reason. NBC's Brian Williams lied numerous times.

Here's a list of famous journalists caught in lies.

http://m.ranker.com/list/journalists-who-lied/mel-judson

may be i am naive, but i find it hard to believe a well known blogger will lie in writing when it is easy to confirm.
like i said, when i have a hour or two set aside, i will go watch the video.

 

[dstew60105]

That is true when you are building the team, not trying to get the last major piece to win it all.

Nope, it's ALWAYS the case. Thinking you are one player away has been Dallas's downfall since Jimmy left. Also, do you really think their is that big of a difference between Taco and Takk? It's not like it's Taco vs. Charles Haley.

 

[waldoputty]

Nope, it's ALWAYS the case. Thinking you are one player away has been Dallas's downfall since Jimmy left.

if randy was not an idiot, we would have beat GB last year.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

Teams like Green Bay and Pittsburgh dont like to throw money around.
Perhaps out of their small town mentality.
I dont see why we need to be constrained by their small town mentality in the new cap environment.

This is the chance of getting a starter from the draft picks.
I am not even saying an upgrade.
We should be focusing our resources on the real problem, not distract ourselves with self-inflicting wounds.

1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)
2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)
3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)

Teams like GB and Pittsburgh know that FA is fools gold. That's why they don't throw money around. It's not because they don't have any money. How many years did Dallas do it your way before shifting to this philosophy? 20? Same ownership and same GM. It's called learning from your mistakes.

You love that chart but it's an incomplete part of the story. What are your percentages of success for players given big contracts at each position? Better yet, what is the percentage of players drafted and FA signees on all Super Bowl winners and how do they compare to the league average. If you want to use stats as the basis for your argument, at least use the right stats.

And if your 2nd Round number for DBs is applicable in this instance, since Dallas had 2nd round grades on both Cheeto and Lewis, it's probably best we drafted them both since statistically one won't pan out. Right?

And what are the statistics on injuries for CBs on their second and third contracts? That should factor into this as well since that was the decision Dallas made.

You are drawing cause and effect conclusions from incomplete data.

 

[dstew60105]

if randy was not an idiot, we would have beat GB last year.

Randy Gregory? LOL. He hasn't been a real part of this team, EVER!

 

[Boom]

It is not a matter of preparation.
They made a choice in the beginning.
They refused to bend even though all the FAs left.
Seems like a macho thing to show who is in charge and who is right.
Reminds me of the Murray RB thing.
Oh anyone can get 1000 yards behind our OL - true.
But the big picture was maximizing the running game to make Romo more efficient and the offense more explosive.
So to recover from that, we used #4 pick on Zeke and the running game is now great.

These were strategies, successful or not. I'd be amazed if the Cowboys didn't consider the draft impact of each FA (non-)signing.