Takk > Taco or Taco > Takk

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Like our previous long discussion, the model building I learned is from the social sciences that you apparently do not approve of.
That includes classes from top game theorists like Abreu and psychologists like Herrnstein, the father of the matching theory.
We all have different backgrounds, but that is what makes arguments fun.

An appeal to authority is not appealing at all. I have looked at economic models and they do not pull factors out of their butt like you did with that $5m.

 

[waldoputty]

An appeal to authority is not appealing at all. I have looked at economic models and they do not pull factors out of their butt like you did with that $5m.

i dont know what econ models you look at, but i have taken classes where variables are routinely parametrized.
given the small contracts given, i suspect the $5m estimate was pretty good.
though you may be correct on the restricted FAs, since i dont know how much that added up to.

not appealing to authority.
being smart does not mean being correct.
but appealing to there are different areas of knowledge and approach that different people are exposed to.
if you have exposure to game theory and math based psychology, you should understand what i am saying.
so i sounds like you have not.

 

[waldoputty]

His 10 yard split score doesn't factor his ability to change directions at all.

You have no concept of what is involved in developing DL as you avoid the specifics when I bring them up or alternately display ignorance like your comments about a straight line to the QB.

Takk has maybe better potential as a dip and rip player although I am not sold but in things like inside out and outside in moves, speed to power moves to get the OT off balance and then shed them with a sudden powerful shift, inside counters like the slap and swim, or the spin move are all better suited for an athlete like Taco.

his 10 split score obviously does not factor in agility.
i am not pretending to know all the moves etc, but if you look at the tape, he already has the moves and adequate agility to make them work, including dip and rip.
i recall that is what takk does well is what gregory mostly did in his brief time with us, and we all wish gregory was available.

i said take advantage of his speed to take the most direct clearest path to the QB.
that is not straight line.

is he perfect, no.

but i have yet to hear anything say taco is elite in anything except you.
on the other hand, takk is far more explosive and you can clearly see that from his videos.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

i dont know what econ models you look at, but i have taken classes where variables are routinely parametrized.
given the small contracts given, i suspect the $5m estimate was pretty good.
though you may be correct on the restricted FAs, since i dont know how much that added up to.

not appealing to authority.
being smart does not mean being correct.
but appealing to there are different areas of knowledge and approach that different people are exposed to.
if you have exposure to game theory and math based psychology, you should understand what i am saying.
so i sounds like you have not.

You didn't use parameters and those come with an acknowledgement of an empirical basis and degree of uncertainty. You did none of that. You made up a number out of nothing ie pulled it out of your butt.

You name dropped your favorite professors. That is you trying to assert your expertise and thus authority. It's not compelling.

And I fail to see how the reciprocity involved in game theory applies to your $5m. You certainly have not done anything to justify invoking either.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

his 10 split score obviously does not factor in agility.
i am not pretending to know all the moves etc, but if you look at the tape, he already has the moves and adequate agility to make them work, including dip and rip.
i recall that is what takk does well is what gregory mostly did in his brief time with us, and we all wish gregory was available.

i said take advantage of his speed to take the most direct clearest path to the QB.
that is not straight line.

is he perfect, no.

but i have yet to hear anything say taco is elite in anything except you.
on the other hand, takk is far more explosive and you can clearly see that from his videos.

Gregory beat Takk's shuttle by over a quarter second and cone score by over half a second. Takk is not remotely the athlete that Gregory is. Frankly, for Takk's size his agility scores are bad.

What moves do you think Takk has? It looks like he is playing paddy cake instead of actually disengaging to me.

You just seem to be wishcasting at this point.

 

[waldoputty]

You didn't use parameters and those come with an acknowledgement of an empirical basis and degree of uncertainty. You did none of that. You made up a number out of nothing ie pulled it out of your butt.

You name dropped your favorite professors. That is you trying to assert your expertise and thus authority. It's not compelling.

And I fail to see how the reciprocity involved in game theory applies to your $5m. You certainly have not done anything to justify invoking either.

game theory and the other subjects are subjects were you often have to parametrize variables to do proofs, develop theorems and perform analysis.
if you have seen how matching is developed and utilized, then i am just copying how these theories are applied.
if you would have studied those at all and simply do not look down on the subjects, you should know that.

 

[waldoputty]

Gregory beat Takk's shuttle by over a quarter second and cone score by over half a second. Takk is not remotely the athlete that Gregory is. Frankly, for Takk's size his agility scores are bad.

What moves do you think Takk has? It looks like he is playing paddy cake instead of actually disengaging to me.

You just seem to be wishcasting at this point.

i think the video on takk shows the dip and rip several times.
i recall that gregory did not show many other moves bending around to the QB.
i am not saying he is gregory, or he would never have got to 26.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

game theory and the other subjects are subjects were you often have to parametrize variables to do proofs, develop theorems and perform analysis.
if you have seen how matching is developed and utilized, then i am just copying how these theories are applied.
if you would have studied those at all and simply do not look down on the subjects, you should know that.

And that is not how you came up with $5m.

You're talking around the issue again. I am not eating the red herring.

 

[darthseinfeld]

i think the video on takk shows the dip and rip several times.
i recall that gregory did not show many other moves bending around to the QB.
i am not saying he is gregory, or he would never have got to 26.

Takk is the most raw off all the first round DE's by a wide margin. He has a very limited pass rush arsenal, negates with arm length with very poor hand usage, and at this stage can only burst up field. Takk is also limited to playing in a 8 or 9 gap at least now. Even with development he may struggle in a 6 gap.

Takks appeal is that he has great burst upfield and plays with alot of energy. Would have been a good RDE for Marinelli because Marinelli would have played him in the 8 or 9 gap. A system change and he would have struggled as his lack of flexibility makes ot difficult for him to play a 6 or 7 gap

Taco can play anywhere from a 9 to a 4 gap on either side of the DL. Any scheme change, Taco will be a fit.

Taco is the better prospect

 

[waldoputty]

And that is not how you came up with $5m.

You're talking around the issue again. I am not eating the red herring.

when you build these types of models, you make estimates to parametrize things otherwise a lot of things can simply not be estimated.
you may not like it and call it handwaving, but lots of people call social sciences handwaving.
this is not engineering, so open your mind a little just because you can calculate the exact inductance of a circuit.

for the 5m, i obviously considered previous history when big contracts that were spent.
second you consider the large amount of contracts near the vet min, and those are not typically signed at the beginning of free agency.
then you consider how many real players were on the rosters already.
chances are teams would not be signing more than 2-3 players after that point in term with contracts much above the vet min.
then you consider the rule of 51 and subtract the min from the likely contract.
so i choose $5M as the upper bound given all these factors.

you named these players that would get huge contracts, and there was only one.
that is in keeping with history.
you named the QBs that would get the huge contracts - where are they?
told you that was not going to happen.
when you mentioned the RFA, you were correct.
however, fact of the matter is the $5M estimate was probably correct.

 

[waldoputty]

Takk is the most raw off all the first round DE's by a wide margin. He has a very limited pass rush arsenal, negates with arm length with very poor hand usage, and at this stage can only burst up field. Takk is also limited to playing in a 8 or 9 gap at least now. Even with development he may struggle in a 6 gap.

Takks appeal is that he has great burst upfield and plays with alot of energy. Would have been a good RDE for Marinelli because Marinelli would have played him in the 8 or 9 gap. A system change and he would have struggled as his lack of flexibility makes ot difficult for him to play a 6 or 7 gap

my whole point was to play him in a 9 gap to utilize his speed.
we need a passrush in passing situations more than anything else.
thought he has very long arms.
tapper could have provided this possibly, but his back is a serious concern.
we have plenty of lde types and irving is pretty good in spurts.
did marinelli not just a long extension?

 

[MileyDancer]

So glad Atl jumped them and took that lunatic. There is no way I want to cheer for someone who acts like that on national tv in their moment of glory. It's not like he didn't know he was going to be drafted for a couple of years now. To act like he did tells me he is dumb and likely to make huge mistakes as time goes on.

So, you're basing all this on one event?


Hey, remember that speeding ticket you got? That just tells me you're an idiot that completely disregards the law and safety of others, and you're going to keep making more mistakes as time goes on.

 

[darthseinfeld]

my whole point was to play him in a 9 gap to utilize his speed.
we need a passrush in passing situations more than anything else.
thought he has very long arms.
tapper could have provided this possibly, but his back is a serious concern.
we have plenty of lde types and irving is pretty good in spurts.
did marinelli not just a long extension?

And you can only use him in a 9 gap. You can find those guys in the mid rounds. Takk isn't much if any different from Tapper really

And Taco is an RDE. Dont get why people are calling him an LDE

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

when you build these types of models, you make estimates to parametrize things otherwise a lot of things can simply not be estimated.
you may not like it and call it handwaving, but lots of people call social sciences handwaving.
this is not engineering, so open your mind a little just because you can calculate the exact inductance of a circuit.

for the 5m, i obviously considered previous history when big contracts that were spent.
second you consider the large amount of contracts near the vet min, and those are not typically signed at the beginning of free agency.
then you consider how many real players were on the rosters already.
chances are teams would not be signing more than 2-3 players after that point in term with contracts much above the vet min.
then you consider the rule of 51 and subtract the min from the likely contract.
so i choose $5M as the upper bound given all these factors.

Engineering design does not rely on that level of precision. There are different levels of tolerance that are acceptable for different applications. Circuits are no different and are designed with that in mind. In the case of inductance, capacitors that are rated the same do not have the same inductance and you have to account for that. Mass manufacturing has limitations.

No you didn't. That information is not available. That was what I threw in your face that a decent model would look at past contracts signed after two weeks of FA and approximate based on that.

You said you couldn't do that. I asked for any basis whatsoever and I got a big bag of nothing beyond this type of posturing I am getting now.

 

[darthseinfeld]

Socretes frowns apon this thread

 

[xwalker]

my point was the shuttle and cone scores are less critical given his 10 yard split score.
perfect, no.
but probably a lot easier to develop than Taco.

if you read this thread, one alternative i suggested was taking Taco/Takk, Willis and either Basham, Rivers etc.
instead of throwing numbers at DL, we threw numbers are CB.
DL was the real problem while CB was the self-inflicted problem.

I've already told you that Taco has a 1.63 10-yard time at his Pro-Day. If there was any lingering issues with the ankle or if he just couldn't work for a while after the season due to the ankle, then the Pro Day being several weeks after the combine gave him more time removed from the ankle issue.

Here are the 3-cone times vs weight all plotted together. As you can see, Takk's 3-cone is very bad relative to his weight.

The line is just an average of all 7 players.


https://lh5.***BROKEN***/RDs17afMG1bi7hHtCB_h0RzzgmQH2DaNAfiVOl6yyYZddoegKRK6DLKiFZzxQ6ZuI8LCcSNnddbz2RI=w1920-h961-rw

 

[waldoputty]

Engineering design does not rely on that level of precision. There are different levels of tolerance that are acceptable for different applications. Circuits are no different and are designed with that in mind. In the case of inductance, capacitors that are rated the same do not have the same inductance and you have to account for that. Mass manufacturing has limitations.

No you didn't. That information is not available. That was what I threw in your face that a decent model would look at past contracts signed after two weeks of FA and approximate based on that.

You said you couldn't do that. I asked for any basis whatsoever and I got a big bag of nothing beyond this type of posturing I am getting now.

I did not what?
.
Did I go build database of the information.
Of course not.
I went by experience and considered the history of when these players signed in past year.
Fact of the matter is that I was right and all the major signings had happened minus the DT from the Giants.
You, on the other hand, claimed all these big contracts to come and what actually happened?

Do you even know what these fields I mentioned are.
I presume you did know some of them, but do you?
Have you taken a single class in a social science that is math based and had models built.
You cannot compare tolerance analysis in engineering to this.
And I am not talking econ 101.
If you did, you would know that assumptions have to be made, often based on only available history.
The one who builds the model has to make reasonable assumptions based on whatever limited he/she has.
May be that is why narrow-minded people call it handwaving.

This type of analysis is done a lot for these types of models.
Do you really think someone like me can learn to BS like that on the fly
I wish i was only so smart.

 

[waldoputty]

I've already told you that Taco has a 1.63 10-yard time at his Pro-Day. If there was any lingering issues with the ankle or if he just couldn't work for a while after the season due to the ankle, then the Pro Day being several weeks after the combine gave him more time removed from the ankle issue.

Here are the 3-cone times vs weight all plotted together. As you can see, Takk's 3-cone is very bad relative to his weight.

The line is just an average of all 7 players.


https://lh5.***BROKEN***/RDs17afMG1bi7hHtCB_h0RzzgmQH2DaNAfiVOl6yyYZddoegKRK6DLKiFZzxQ6ZuI8LCcSNnddbz2RI=w1920-h961-rw

ok, so you are saying Takk and Taco have basically the same 10 split score?
i know takk has bad agility scores compared to most candidates.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I did not what?
.
Did I go build database of the information.
Of course not.
I went by experience and considered the history of when these players signed in past year.
Fact of the matter is that I was right and all the major signings had happened minus the DT from the Giants.
You, on the other hand, claimed all these big contracts to come and what actually happened?

Do you even know what these fields I mentioned are.
I presume you did know some of them, but do you?
Have you taken a single class in a social science that is math based and had models built.
You cannot compare tolerance analysis in engineering to this.
And I am not talking econ 101.
If you did, you would know that assumptions have to be made, often based on only available history.
The one who builds the model has to make reasonable assumptions based on whatever limited he/she has.
May be that is why narrow-minded people call it handwaving.

This type of analysis is done a lot for these types of models.
Do you really think someone like me can learn to BS like that on the fly
I wish i was only so smart.

You made an arbitrary distinction and claimed you were right without proving it. You don't get that assumption, chachi. Your totals also did not include all of the RFA and the like we determined.

And you are very correct to say you had no database. You did not go by any data at all whatsoever. There were no real parameters used.

Given how much I have thrown it in your face, you would expect some demonstration to the contrary. Instead you claim that because I am not an economist that means you have more authority on the subject. Again, aht appeal is garbage.

And the most salient point to take from this is that once all those remaining VFA, RFA, rookies and anyone else sign the lowest team in the league who is now at 84% of the floor will be over it or so near that it is inconsequential. That was the root of the argument.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Socretes frowns apon this thread

Socrates learned from Parmenides to question, argue and seek the truth from that method. Given his Apology and how he treated his judges, he likely would not have liked the appeal to authority on display.