Taylor says Zeke at 4

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No excuses, its what happened. You have been provided several examples of corners not making as much an impact as an elite RB.

Didnt AP's team make the playoffs this year?

Did Revis' team make the playoffs this year?

How did all those investments the Jets made to their secondary pay off this season?

Give me an AP over a Revis or Sherman any day.

Give me a Gurley over a Marcus Peters any day.

Give me a Zeke Elliot over a Jalen Ramsey any day.

Hubris. If you could look past your ego and what you want you would quickly see how RB are valued in the draft. Elliott will get picked maybe around where Gordon went last year. They are similar athletes but Gordon outperformed him.

I'm interested in value if you are determined to get a RB -whose average shelf life is 3 years- then at least trade down.

 

[WillieBeamen]

Hubris. If you could look past your ego and what you want you would quickly see how RB are valued in the draft. Elliott will get picked maybe around where Gordon went last year. They are similar athletes but Gordon outperformed him.

I'm interested in value if you are determined to get a RB -whose average shelf life is 3 years- then at least trade down.

I never said I wanted Zeke at 4. I want Goff or Wentz. My initial point was, RB>>>CB in terms of impact. A good-great RB can make your QB better and defense better (see 2014 Cowboys).

What other position does CB make better?

We have went the route of using a top pick on CB twice. How did that work out for us?

But I'll let you and some others tell me that if we take Ramsey, itll be "different", and he will help get us more wins.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I never said I wanted Zeke at 4. I want Goff or Wentz. My initial point was, RB>>>CB in terms of impact. A good-great RB can make your QB better and defense better (see 2014 Cowboys).

What other position does CB make better?

We have went the route of using a top pick on CB twice. How did that work out for us?

But I'll let you and some others tell me that if we take Ramsey, itll be "different", and he will help get us more wins.

I'm not going to argue that the running game and passing game do not feedback on each other.

My point is that the entirety of the NFL disagrees with your evaluation through draft action. Further when you look at successful RB around the NFL there are successes from all rounds. For every first round AP or Lynch, you have a McCoy, Charles, Murray, Bell, Lacey and Freeman selected later.

All you are doing is spouting ideology. Handwaving at the two times we have done it and mindlessly ignoring the prospect in question is boring. Claiborne and Newman are not Ramsey and this is just mindless over simplification. Then of course there is our recent history of first round RBs.

The running game was not the problem last year on offense anyway. Coverage in the middle of the field was a bigger issue.

 

[tyke1doe]

Revis has won a Super Bowl ring, AD has not.

Give me Revis.

Revis won because Pete Carroll didn't give the ball to a running back at the goal line.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

What other position does CB make better?

I realize you were probably not asking me but I will give my opinion on this question.

Simple answer: It depends on the CB. If that CB is Deion or Newman or Revis, he makes the entire defense better and also the Offense because if you can stop the other Offense, you put less pressure on our own Offense to try and take chances in order to win.

If you have the type of CB who can take away the other teams best WR, you then have the ability to do more with the other 10 players on Defense. More ability to double other WRs. You have the ability to bring a safety down in the box with less risk. You can send extra rushers with less risk. If you have that kind of guy.

The question is really not if a CB can help because there is no question that a true shutdown CB can. The questions are, 1) If Ramsey is that CB and 2) if we are evaluating him as a better fit at CB or Safety. Personally, I think that if we took Ramsey, we would probably do it with the idea of him play FS for us and keeping Jones at CB. JMO

 

[Oh_Canada]

The point is you won't be on the field enough to do that because I'll be busy cramming the ball down your throat circa 2014. It wasn't the dbs looking good it was the running back keeping the defense off the field.

Yes and in the end lose to a better passing team who can defend the pass even better as well.

 

[WillieBeamen]

I'm not going to argue that the running game and passing game do not feedback on each other.

My point is that the entirety of the NFL disagrees with your evaluation through draft action. Further when you look at successful RB around the NFL there are successes from all rounds. For every first round AP or Lynch, you have a McCoy, Charles, Murray, Bell, Lacey and Freeman selected later.

All you are doing is spouting ideology. Handwaving at the two times we have done it and mindlessly ignoring the prospect in question is boring. Claiborne and Newman are not Ramsey and this is just mindless over simplification. Then of course there is our recent history of first round RBs.

The running game was not the problem last year on offense anyway. Coverage in the middle of the field was a bigger issue.

Richard Sherman: 5th round

Josh Norman: 5th round

Chris Harris: Undrafted


Ronald Darby: 2nd round


4 of what most would say the top 10 corners in the NFL were also found later on in the draft.

If you look at the history of the league, not 1 cornerback has won MVP. Why is that?

In the last 20 years, only 1 cornerback has won defensive player of the year, Charles Woodson.

It is the least impactful position on the field.

 

[WillieBeamen]

I realize you were probably not asking me but I will give my opinion on this question.

Simple answer: It depends on the CB. If that CB is Deion or Newman or Revis, he makes the entire defense better and also the Offense because if you can stop the other Offense, you put less pressure on our own Offense to try and take chances in order to win.

If you have the type of CB who can take away the other teams best WR, you then have the ability to do more with the other 10 players on Defense. More ability to double other WRs. You have the ability to bring a safety down in the box with less risk. You can send extra rushers with less risk. If you have that kind of guy.

The question is really not if a CB can help because there is no question that a true shutdown CB can. The questions are, 1) If Ramsey is that CB and 2) if we are evaluating him as a better fit at CB or Safety. Personally, I think that if we took Ramsey, we would probably do it with the idea of him play FS for us and keeping Jones at CB. JMO

But how often does that happen? With the exception of Revis, what corner is taking away teams best receivers? The rules now make it almost impossible for corners to take away these receivers.

I think a lot of gms covet corners more in free agency and the draft, because the good ones are usually harder to come by, not that they are more impactful.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

But how often does that happen? With the exception of Revis, what corner is taking away teams best receivers? The rules now make it almost impossible for corners to take away these receivers.

I think a lot of gms covet corners more in free agency and the draft, because the good ones are usually harder to come by, not that they are more impactful.

I agree, those kinds of CBs don't come around often, however, they do still come around. I think Norman is looking like that kind of CB, at this point in his career. I don't agree that you can't be done any longer. I just think it's hard to find those guys because so many college coaches employee so much more zone and that's what you see DBs working on. Good CBs that can shut down a WR or take away one side are worth their weight in gold, regardless of FA or draft. However, as I said before, I don't think we would play Ramsey at CB if we drafted him. I was just saying that a CB, if he is a true shutdown guy, can help every position.

Now, if you want my opinion, I would be more in favor of addressing the QB position if the right one was there. However, I would not be disappointed if we took Ramsey because I do think he might turn into a pretty good FS and it is a position of need. More over, he helps a lot of things with the cap because right now, we have a team full of SS and if we could get a FS, we could free up cap by cutting lose a few of these Safeties and also roster space. Plus, I believe that we might actually have a guy who could end up being a shutdown CB in Jones and I would hate to see us use him as a FS, which we might have to do if we don't fix that position. Ramsey, to me, solves a lot of problems.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Richard Sherman: 5th round

Josh Norman: 5th round

Chris Harris: Undrafted


Ronald Darby: 2nd round


4 of what most would say the top 10 corners in the NFL were also found later on in the draft.

If you look at the history of the league, not 1 cornerback has won MVP. Why is that?

In the last 20 years, only 1 cornerback has won defensive player of the year, Charles Woodson.

It is the least impactful position on the field.

You're the least authoritative person on this subject. Prima facia, SAM, 1T, and SS are not more important than CB. How do we know this? Because they are taken off the field for more corners. That is just on defense.

You can prattle on about your ideological certainty and try to sophist your way to your conclusion using frontrunners logic but at the end of the day the professionals have an objective measure of how they value the position as opposed to the other. The trend is obvious and RB are marginalized. It is what it is.

My personal take is:

QB
DE
OT
WR
CB
DT
FS
TE
WLB
OC
RB
SS
MLB
OG
SAM

 

[Alexander]

Simple answer: It depends on the CB. If that CB is Deion or Newman or Revis, he makes the entire defense better and also the Offense because if you can stop the other Offense, you put less pressure on our own Offense to try and take chances in order to win.

I can honestly say this is the first time I have seen these three mentioned like equals.

Deion, Newman, Revis, same thing.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I can honestly say this is the first time I have seen these three mentioned like equals.

Deion, Newman, Revis, same thing.

In all honesty, the Newman is a mistake. I actually meant Norman. I don't think they are all equal. I would say that as a cover corner, Deion is the best. Revis is certainly the cover corner of his generation IMO. If last season is any indication, Norman might be the air apparent. The point I was getting at with this post is that all three can take away the oppositions WR and as such, make life much easier for the Defense.

 

[WillieBeamen]

You're the least authoritative person on this subject. Prima facia, SAM, 1T, and SS are not more important than CB. How do we know this? Because they are taken off the field for more corners. That is just on defense.

You can prattle on about your ideological certainty and try to sophist your way to your conclusion using frontrunners logic but at the end of the day the professionals have an objective measure of how they value the position as opposed to the other. The trend is obvious and RB are marginalized. It is what it is.

My personal take is:

QB
DE
OT
WR
CB
DT
FS
TE
WLB
OC
RB
SS
MLB
OG
SAM

Lol ok.


AP>>Revis

 

[Rockport]

We had Romo and Dez before and went 8-8 each year.

What was the one difference, in our Garrett offenses body of work, that occurred in the 2014 season?

We ran the ball. Murray went for 1800, OPOY, and we physically dominated teams. Simply having Romo and Dez didn't do crap for our offense until we put them in a better position to succeed by running

And Murray doesn't get those yards without Romo and Dez.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Lol ok.


AP>>Revis

So you've abandoned arguing on merit. That tells me all I need to know.

 

[WillieBeamen]

So you've abandoned arguing on merit. That tells me all I need to know.

No Fuzzy, im not abdandoning the arguement. You can not convince me corners are more impactful than running backs.

Are teams passing more, which makes rbs not as important as the 90s? Yes, I can agree with that.

That still doesnt equate CB being more impactful than a running back.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No Fuzzy, im not abdandoning the arguement. You can not convince me corners are more impactful than running backs.

Are teams passing more, which makes rbs not as important as the 90s? Yes, I can agree with that.

That still doesnt equate CB being more impactful than a running back.

I'm not trying to convince you. Once I stated that you were being ideological it should have been obvious.

You're missing the point. We have an audience.

I never made that argument. You go ahead and think that. I will simply recall where RB have been drafted relative to cornerback the past decade in the NFL. Then we can look at contracts. There are a whole lot of direct objective measures showing how you're wrong.

 

[WillieBeamen]

I'm not trying to convince you. Once I stated that you were being ideological it should have been obvious.

You're missing the point. We have an audience.

I never made that argument. You go ahead and think that. I will simply recall where RB have been drafted relative to cornerback the past decade in the NFL. Then we can look at contracts. There are a whole lot of direct objective measures showing how you're wrong.

So this = they are impactful.....lol ok

we just will continue to disagree

 

[Hoofbite]

Can't get on board with a 1st round RB. If RBs aren't worth top dollar in free agency, how can you justify a top 5 pick?

You have a hell of a lot more cap space - and you can be a hell of a lot more creative with it - than you do 1st round draft picks.

 

[waving monkey]

I'll just say this. Ezekiel Elliott will be far more impaction on the field than Jalen Ramsey. It won't even be close.

impaction is the name of the game
I'm not ready to declare Zeek my pick at four but if
I keep seeing him raise on boards of those I respect
I'll have to consider it.
Problem with Henry is people talking about him rising into the first round.

Zeek goes along way in getting this offense fired up.
The thing that caught my eye was Zeek's ability to block pass rushers.
That means the coaches wont be afraid to put him in there.

Some might reconsider their reluctance about a first round pick of Zeek.
@4