Thanking Rams, Eagles

[Denim Chicken]

Obviously NFL decision makers disagree with you. Your statement reads of short-sightedness with little long-term thinking.



NFL teams are. Enough to give up two years' worth of draft picks.

No there isn't. Franchise quarterbacks don't become free agents. Doesn't happen. Try again.


Sure there will. More guys like Manziel and RG3. Dumpster diving. You operate there, you get garbage someone else doesn't want. Again, you show zero vision or awareness of what is happening in this league.



With that Hall of Fame quarterback at the helm? Sure they did. You can't see past the nose on your face.

Are you going to sit here and tell me Manning played like a HOF QB last year?

BTW, FA QBs: Payton Manning, Jay Cutler, Carson Palmer, Brock Osweiler (tbd)...

 

[Stash]

Can you provide the data that demonstrates that there is a consensus on how good these two, who we couldn't get anyway, are going to be.

Why would we do that at this point? You've said it yourself, they're two players "we could get anyway" why waste the time?

I asked you in the last thread and you gave me a link to an interesting article about the fact that players drafted after the 3rd round don't do as well as players drafted in the first few. It also didn't mention how many bust in the top 5.

I didn't ask for that I wanted to know about the consensus on how good these two are. I've read and heard much to the contrary.

You can "hear" anything you want, every person on the Internet has an opinion. What are the facts? What's being talked about, and what's being done?

The only thing I'm interested in are facts, not opinions. The fact is that two teams traded two years worth of draft picks for these two quarterbacks. What anyone thinks about that doesn't mean a damn thing. Actual NFL decision makers gave up a lot because they felt that both are more than worth it. People paid to do it, and men whose jobs are on the line if they're wrong.

So who cares what some guy on the Internet thinks at this point?

 

[DogFace]

You take a shot with any position after the first round, and even in the first round. Yes, Dallas should take a shot by drafting the best QB available at some point and seeing how it works out.

Did I say that it's going to work out to draft Cook in the second or Prescott in the third? I don't know that any more than I know if it would have worked out to draft Wentz or Goff in the first?

Past draft results show that just over 50 percent of the QBs taken in the top 5 picks work out ... so yes, you're taking a shot even then. Around 60 percent drafted in the 30s work out, so you're taking a shot then. The percentages after that continue to drop off, but that doesn't mean you can't find a QB in the third, fourth, etc. However, you won't know if you can if you don't draft one.

Too many facts. You're hurting his argument! He really really really wanted a QB and now all the meanies ruined it for him!

To make it worse dummies like me just can't see it his way.

 

[DogFace]

Why would we do that at this point? You've said it yourself, they're two players "we could get anyway" why waste the time?



You can "hear" anything you want, every person on the Internet has an opinion. What are the facts? What's being talked about, and what's being done?

The only thing I'm interested in are facts, not opinions. The fact is that two teams traded two years worth of draft picks for these two quarterbacks. What anyone thinks about that doesn't mean a damn thing. Actual NFL decision makers gave up a lot because they felt that both are more than worth it. People paid to do it, and men whose jobs are on the line if they're wrong.

So who cares what some guy on the Internet thinks at this point?

Because you're still talking about what we failed to do. You said before there was a consensus. I guess you're admitting there wasn't.

Didn't the Commanders do the same thing?
Does that mean RG3 is really good and worth the picks they lost?

 

[Stash]

Are you going to sit here and tell me Manning played like a HOF QB last year?

Never said any such thing. He only played well enough for his team to win a Super Bowl. Dispute that.

BTW, FA QBs: Payton Manning, Jay Cutler, Carson Palmer, Brock Osweiler (tbd)...

Just to point out for everyone that you don't know what you're talking about, when was Jay Cutler a free agent!

 

[Stash]

Too many facts. You're hurting his argument! He really really really wanted a QB and now all the meanies ruined it for him!

To make it worse dummies like me just can't see it his way.

Where's these "too many facts" you're referring to? The only fact is that you clowns don't know **** about the NFL.

 

[gimmesix]

I wouldn't talk about anyone else's lack of vision with the 'throwing darts' nonsense you're coming up with.

It's amazing that you'll talk about history and things that have actually happened and then ignorantly dismiss them and those that have actually learned from them.

Learning from them doesn't mean Dallas had to take a QB in the first round this year. That's where the blinders appear to go on.
There's no evidence Dallas is going to repeat the mistake it made just because the team doesn't draft a QB at No. 4 this year. Those who believe that the team will are simply stuck in that past.

There also were several factors that compounded the issue, including the fact that we didn't have a first-round pick the year after we lost Aikman. There was also a dearth of draftable QBs that year, with Michael Vick being the only one taken in the first round.

The next year if we could have traded up we could have gotten the likes of David Carr and Joey Harrington. (Maybe that's what we would have ended up with this year if we traded up for Goff or Wentz. Maybe not.) The next year, we could have taken Byron Leftwich instead of Terence Newman.

So in reality, 2004 with Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers and Ben Roethlisberger would have been the only draft where Dallas could have gotten quality at the position in the top 10 (other than maybe Carson Palmer in 2003).

If we're to learn anything from the path that Dallas took, it's that it is hard to find a QB no matter where you draft or who you draft. The team will have to take its shot at some point, but it's going to take luck to find that franchise guy.

 

[Stash]

Because you're still talking about what we failed to do. You said before there was a consensus. I guess you're admitting there wasn't.

Two trades for the two quarterbacks show that both were worth it to people who actually make decisions.

Didn't the Commanders do the same thing?
Does that mean RG3 is really good and worth the picks they lost?

Does one failure make your case for all-time? Really?

 

[gimmesix]

Where's the research to back up these claims you're making? You're throwing around numbers with nothing supporting them.

I did the research. It's in other threads on the subject, so you can find it if you want.

I compared a similar sample size of QBs taken in the top five and QBs taken in the 30s and was surprised that the percentage of QBs taken in the 30s who became successful starters was higher than the QBs taken in the top five.

 

[Stash]

Learning from them doesn't mean Dallas had to take a QB in the first round this year. That's where the blinders appear to go on.

Actually, my comments are refuting what the original, asinine comments that started this thread said. That somehow, not having the chance at either of the top two quarterbacks was a good thing.

There's no evidence Dallas is going to repeat the mistake it made just because the team doesn't draft a QB at No. 4 this year. Those who believe that the team will are simply stuck in that past.

And those that fail to learn from the mistakes of the last are doomed to repeat them. All you've got in your 'case' are "take a shot", and "maybe". You've got nothing.

There also were several factors that compounded the issue, including the fact that we didn't have a first-round pick the year after we lost Aikman. There was also a dearth of draftable QBs that year, with Michael Vick being the only one taken in the first round.

Yeah, not like Drew Brees was there or anything. Do you do any research?

The next year if we could have traded up we could have gotten the likes of David Carr and Joey Harrington. (Maybe that's what we would have ended up with this year if we traded up for Goff or Wentz. Maybe not.) The next year, we could have taken Byron Leftwich instead of Terence Newman.

So in reality, 2004 with Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers and Ben Roethlisberger would have been the only draft where Dallas could have gotten quality at the position in the top 10 (other than maybe Carson Palmer in 2003).

If we're to learn anything from the path that Dallas took, it's that it is hard to find a QB no matter where you draft or who you draft. The team will have to take its shot at some point, but it's going to take luck to find that franchise guy.

That's all you've got in your entire, weak, uninformed, unresearched 'case'. A bunch of "maybe" and "take a shot" and no substance at all.

 

[conner01]

Says a Melvin who will be crying like a baby when the crippled QB can't play anymore. Whoever they draft at 4? They don't matter without the QB. Completely and totally irrelevant.

Here's the deal, Bathe in this truth while fantasy land is all around you. We have a triple whammy at play here and watch and see if I'm not right as rain.

1) We had a real opportunity to turn the abortion of the 2015 season it's an actual positive with the QB of the future. We've now lost that opportunity. Either the idiots who compose our front office don't believe there's a franchise QB in this draft or they just think it's too soon. Romo can play until it hurts to pee. Either way, I would trust your Mom's opinion on this over those two wastes of space. There is a very good chance we will all look back on this decision with serious regret.

2) Not taking the QB now leaves the Cowboys in familiar territory. Their safe space. Their binky. They will more than likely waste the 4th overall pick on a player who will provide zero impact on this team, CB Jalen Ramsey. Literally the least pay out you can drum up from 4-12 and the 4th pick in the draft. It will be a decision that's celebrated around the Romper Room, but will prove to be just as horrific as the Newman, Carr and Claiborne decisions. Irrelevant players. They win you nothing. They should never command a top of the draft selection or a mega FA deal.

3) Not taking the QB at 4 will also probably lead to another disastrous decision. Burning a pick quite possibly as high as 34, and a lot of time, on a complete bum athlete type QB that Wade Wilson can coach up in the decade and a half or whatever it is our lunatic of an owner has Romo pegged for. Hey, we're addressing QB. See? It's just kind of half ***ed. Did you meet Jalen yet?

Same old, same old. Tick tock. How old is he today? How old tomorrow? We're making progress.

All these fans who didn't want a QB will be screaming about jerry screwing up when these qb's turn out to be good and we don't have a QB

 

[Stash]

I did the research. It's in other threads on the subject, so you can find it if you want.

As expected. Nothing.

I compared a similar sample size of QBs taken in the top five and QBs taken in the 30s and was surprised that the percentage of QBs taken in the 30s who became successful starters was higher than the QBs taken in the top five.

So, junk then? Got it. Better minds have done better research with better results.

You just choose to try to ignore it for "take a shot" and "maybe". Well the rest of us aren't ignoring it.

 

[Denim Chicken]

Never said any such thing. He only played well enough for his team to win a Super Bowl. Dispute that.




Just to point out for everyone that you don't know what you're talking about, when was Jay Cutler a free agent!

Sorry, traded. Same difference.

Any way, the QB play you got from Manning last year was about the same a you could get from a FA QB. I see you conveniently did not address the other QBs that were indeed FA.

You keep talking about what football teams are doing and what is going on in the league, but fail to recognize that this this is a *** crapshoot. The same football people you so ardently want to follow are the same that have drafted Gino Smith, EJ Manual, Jonny Manziel, etc in the first RD. How did that work out.

I agree we should have been addressing this position in the past and better preparing, but please don't act like it is some kind of fact that this was our last chance or that these QBs don't have just a good of chance as ending up like the ones mentioned above.

 

[Stash]

Sorry, traded. Same difference.

No, not at all. Complete difference, and if you don't realize it, you have no right having a conversation on this subject because you obviously know nothing about it.

Any way, the QB play you got from Manning last year was about the same a you could get from a FA QB. I see you conveniently did not address the other QBs that were indeed FA.

After the fact became apparent that you didn't know what you were talking about - Jay Cutler - you didn't deserve one.

You keep talking about what football teams are doing and what is going on in the league, but fail to recognize that this this is a *** crapshoot. The same football people you so ardently want to follow are the same that have drafted Gino Smith, EJ Manual, Jonny Manziel, etc in the first RD. How did that work out.

And "crapshoot" is another term used by the ignorant who don't know the first thing about the draft. Go tell Jerry Jones it's a "crapshoot"! Tell him to stop wasting all that time and money on scouting because, after all, its just a "crapshoot". Tell the guys who travel across this country to stop wasting their time and find a real job. After all, its a "crap shoot".

You know what truly is a "crap shoot"? Uninformed people spewing out nonsense on a subject they clearly, plainly, and obviously know absolutely nothing about.

I agree we should have been addressing this position in the past and better preparing, but please don't act like it is some kind of fact that this was our last chance or that these QBs don't have just a good of chance as ending up like the ones mentioned above.

Just as soon as you stop pretending to know what you're talking about on this subject.

 

[DogFace]

Where's these "too many facts" you're referring to? The only fact is that you clowns don't know **** about the NFL.

The facts he mentioned about failure of top 5 drafted Qb s vs others drafted later.

 

[Stash]

The facts he mentioned about failure of top 5 drafted Qb s vs others drafted later.

You mean the claims he made with nothing factual behind it? Did you simply take his word at face value or can you not tell the difference between a 'claim' and a 'fact'?

Likely, because his claim supports your own opinion, you mistook the claims he was making for facts.

 

[DogFace]

Two trades for the two quarterbacks show that both were worth it to people who actually make decisions.



Does one failure make your case for all-time? Really?

Yes. Worth it to them. And not worth it two the 2 "decision makers" who traded away the picks. You said the word consensus in the thread you got closed. I was wondering where you got that information. Are you not willing to share with us so i can stop being a "clown"?

 

[gimmesix]

Where's the research to back up these claims you're making? You're throwing around numbers with nothing supporting them.

I'll do it again, just for you:

I've limited it to QBs taken from 2013 and back simply because I think it's hard to judge how successful QBs like Bortles, Mariota, Winston, Bridgewater and Carr will be at this point

QBs taken in the top five:
2012 Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin
2011 Cam Newton, Jake Locker
2010 Sam Bradford
2009 Matthew Stafford, Mark Sanchez
2008 Matt Ryan
2007 JaMarcus Russell
2006 Vince Young
2005 Alex Smith
2004 Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers
2003 Carson Palmer
2002 David Carr, Joey Harrington
2001 Michael Vick

That's 17 QBs, with Luck, Newton, Stafford, Ryan, Smith, Manning, Rivers and Palmer (tentatively) as successes, which is a success rate of less than 50 percent.

If you want to go back further than that, you can include Tim Couch, Donovan McNabb and Akili Smith from 1999 and Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf from 1998, but it doesn't improve the percentages.


QBs taken in the 30s:
2013 Geno Smith
2011 Andy Dalton, Colin Kaepernick
2007 Kevin Kolb
2002 Patrick Ramsey
2001 Drew Brees

If you stop there, to go the same years as the top five, you've got three successes (Dalton, Kaepernick and Brees) and three failures for 50 percent.

To get a similar sample size, though, you have to go back further.

1991 Brett Favre, Browning Nagle
1989 Mike Elkins
1985 Randall Cunningham
1984 Boomer Esiason
1981 Neil Lomax
1973 Gary Huff, Ron Jaworski
1970 Dennis Shaw
1969 Terry Hanratty
1968 Gary Baban

That's 17, with Jaworski, Lomax (tentatively), Esiason, Cunningham, Favre, Brees, Dalton and Kaepernick as successes, so the overall success rate would be the same as those taken in the top five. (I think I might have included Carr and Bridgewater the first time I did this, which upped the percentage, or I might have gone further back, but I don't remember.)

 

[Denim Chicken]

No, not at all. Complete difference, and if you don't realize it, you have no right having a conversation on this subject because you obviously know nothing about it.



After the fact became apparent that you didn't know what you were talking about - Jay Cutler - you didn't deserve one.



And "crapshoot" is another term used by the ignorant who don't know the first thing about the draft. Go tell Jerry Jones it's a "crapshoot"! Tell him to stop wasting all that time and money on scouting because, after all, its just a "crapshoot". Tell the guys who travel across this country to stop wasting their time and find a real job. After all, its a "crap shoot".

You know what truly is a "crap shoot"? Uninformed people spewing out nonsense on a subject they clearly, plainly, and obviously know absolutely nothing about.



Just as soon as you stop pretending to know what you're talking about on this subject.

BRANDON WEEDEN, BLAINE GABBERT, BRADY QUINN, CRISTAIN PONDER, TIM TEEBOW, GINO SMITH, EJ MANUAL, JONNY MANZIEL, RG3.

Hahaha, where were your precious scouts there. LOL.

 

[DogFace]

You mean the claims he made with nothing factual behind it? Did you simply take his word at face value or can you not tell the difference between a 'claim' and a 'fact'?

Likely, because his claim supports your own opinion, you mistook the claims he was making for facts.

When does a claim become a fact?

Did you provide that with your claim about a "consensus"?

Gimmesix took care of data that supported the claim.

That must be embarrassing for you.

I'm still waiting on this consensus info