The 94 Cowboys would have been the best if not for Jerry Jones

[Zekeats]

Wrong. Watch the Football Life episode on Jimmy. He clearly states that he was ready to move on. I believe it was Gil Brandt that said Jimmy was basically trying to get Jerry to fire him. Both men are the blame, yet Jerry is the villain and Jimmy is the hero. Both men should have put their egos aside and went after that history making 3rd consecutive super bowl win. But neither could do it and they had an ugly parting.

Please, I’m much smarter than to buy that bs. That’s why I’m not vaxed.

 

[gimmesix]

I have never argued against a clash of egos was a primary cause of their divorce. A compromise could have resulted if Johnson made a self-concession to be more submissive to Jones and Jones could have been far less impulsive about desiring dominance. That did not happen and the rest is history.

However, I disagree that the distinction in each man's ego did not play a factor. Plus, I am almost always being literal on the subject. All people do not share the same type of ego, which is why it is a fallacy whenever anY observer lumps everyone into the same category.

Ego is as complex as are the variety of individuals owning them but the concept can be generalized into three distinct types. The first is egocentric. Practically everyone is egocentric at times. Our sense of self-centeredness develops in childhood. Some people have well-balanced their egocentric-ness by the time they reach adulthood. To take from the article, Johnson is certainly a 'obsessive, monomaniacal control freak' in regards to coaching but his behavior was centered upon achieving on-the-field success in Dallas. In Miami, in both the pros and college. At Oklahoma State. Johnson's egocentric self-centered is based upon what he accomplished as a coach wherever he went. And like individuals with 'normal' egos, he easily acknowledges what he has not accomplished.

Others are more egotistic than egocentric. Egotists are often easily offended when criticized and become defensive. They take issue to someone else be perceived as more insightful than themselves. They revel in telling others of past triumphs. Jones is definitely an egotist when he says (again per the article) “What’s the point of winning if you can’t gloat a little?”. After witnessing hundreds of examples from press conferences, on-the-spot interviews, heck, season schedule releases, etc., it is a fact stating Jones gloats. A lot. haha. Unfortunately, Jones does not neatly fit within an egotistic bubble.

Narcissists have a personal sense of grandeur for who they are and what they do. They long for voluntary superfluous appreciation. Narcissists proactively use whatever authority they possess to achieve their goals despite detriment to others or even their own set goals. This is where Jones' mindset resides.

Jones is much more than the man who 'could not let go' how Johnson would not share credit for winning two Super Bowls. An egocentric person would have eventually let bygones be bygones decades ago and inducted their college teammate, former head coach and supposed friend in the Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor. An egotist would have begrudgedly after time voluntarily stepped down and hired a qualified football professional to take over as general manager. Again. Decades ago. Likely before or even during the Dave Campo era. Those types of egos can allow themselves to embrace such personal and business concessions.

On the other hand, a narcissist cannot commit to such self-motivated concessions, not without usually being under personal duress. It is highly likely Jones has been this way his entire adult life. Definitely now at age 80. And he was also the same when he was 51.

I'd argue that Johnson was pretty narcissitic, but I don't really care how we want to classify them. My only argument in this thread is that both egos destroyed a dynasty, not just Jerry's. You seem to agree with that. I'll live the psychoanalysis of each in your hands.

I would agree when it comes to the team's future that Jerry's narcissism continues to get in the way, but I'm pretty sure that I made that clear early on when saying both were to blame. The difference is we still have Jerry's ego to deal with. I call him delusional, and I truly believe that he is.

 

[DallasEast]

I'd argue that Johnson was pretty narcissitic, but I don't really care how we want to classify them. My only argument in this thread is that both egos destroyed a dynasty, not just Jerry's. You seem to agree with that. I'll live the psychoanalysis of each in your hands.

I would agree when it comes to the team's future that Jerry's narcissism continues to get in the way, but I'm pretty sure that I made that clear early on when saying both were to blame. The difference is we still have Jerry's ego to deal with. I call him delusional, and I truly believe that he is.

Understood but you may recall at the beginning of our sub-discussion your comment and my reply to it:

Two. Jimmy shouldn't go unblamed. His ego was just as big as Jerry's. Now, Jerry's ego has kept hurting us ever since.

Jimmy Johnson has an ego. Everyone has an ego. Johnson and Jerry Jones' egos are not the same size. Not even close.

That is the point I have been emphasizing all along. Two egos helped create the 1994 rift but they have never been the same size. Both egos bear responsibility but not equally in my opinion.

 

[Big_D]

Only in Dallas with this turd does the owner look for equal credit with the HC who actually prepares the team. It's like the Hunt family trying to get the credit they deserve over Andy Reid or Robert Kraft over BB. It's flat out ridiculous and Jerry's been killing the team ever since. It's hilarious thinking him and Johnson are "equally" responsible when we all know it's not even close. I don't care who is responsible for the divorce when the biggest problem has been every pathetic decision that followed for almost 3 decades.

 

[DFWJC]

Jimmy coaching that team I'm not so sure we lose 2 games and am pretty sure we land home field and the championship game woulda been different. In 94 we still had Harper and drafted Larry Allen and all the other core and role players. What a great team but sadly they just couldn't get over the HC and the Niners were stacked but again I think we win with Jimmy.

Jimmy was leaving no matter what.
Not sure why you guys refuse to believe him when he says it.

 

[DallasEast]

Only in Dallas with this turd does the owner look for equal credit with the HC who actually prepares the team. It's like the Hunt family trying to get the credit they deserve over Andy Reid or Robert Kraft over BB.

^ This. Even George Steinbrenner--a loud mouth egotist who butted heads publicly with his managers and players, especially Billy Martin and Reggie Jackson--did not constantly siphon the identity of HIS franchise from them to himself. Steinbrenner had a big ego and Jones is the much quieter of the two but the latter's ego is still the bigger one.

 

[Big_D]

^ This. Even George Steinbrenner--a loud mouth egotist who butted heads publicly with his managers and players, especially Billy Martin and Reggie Jackson--did not constantly siphon the identity of HIS franchise from them to himself. Steinbrenner had a big ego and Jones is the much quieter of the two but the latter's ego is still the bigger one.

Steinbrenner still understood the importance of coaching, winning and building a good team. He might've had an ego and butted heads but he was also smart enough to know he wasn't getting it done by himself. Jerry on the other hand micromanages every aspect of this team and been doing that since Jimmy left.

 

[gimmesix]

Understood but you may recall at the beginning of our sub-discussion your comment and my reply to it:



That is the point I have been emphasizing all along. Two egos helped create the 1994 rift but they have never been the same size. Both egos bear responsibility but not equally in my opinion.

My point was that they shared the blame. It doesn't happen if Jimmy is willing to give Jerry credit, even if it was undeserved. Doesn't happen if Jerry doesn't crave the credit.

As for whose ego is bigger, I'm not sure we can determine that. In his book, Jimmy shows that his isn't exactly small. I do think there is some difference in self-awareness, maybe level of narcissism, etc. But essentially all I ever meant is they both are equally to blame (both of the egos were the problem and so they share the blame). It doesn't fall apart if one of them casts aside his pride for something greater. Of course, it could be argued that Jimmy wouldn't have been near as good as a coach without his ego. With Jerry, I'd argue that he would have been a better owner if he had learned to tame his ego. Probably would have hired a GM at some point at least.

I don't think we've really been on a different page with this. Maybe only in that you think Jerry deserves more of the blame, while I believe the blame is equal because no matter whose ego was bigger, it only needed one of them to put the team ahead of themselves to keep the ship afloat. (Of course, I could be wrong about that. One man's ego can cause a lot of destruction.)

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Revisionist history is fun!

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

My point was that they shared the blame. It doesn't happen if Jimmy is willing to give Jerry credit, even if it was undeserved. Doesn't happen if Jerry doesn't crave the credit.

As for whose ego is bigger, I'm not sure we can determine that. In his book, Jimmy shows that his isn't exactly small. I do think there is some difference in self-awareness, maybe level of narcissism, etc. But essentially all I ever meant is they both are equally to blame (both of the egos were the problem and so they share the blame). It doesn't fall apart if one of them casts aside his pride for something greater. Of course, it could be argued that Jimmy wouldn't have been near as good as a coach without his ego. With Jerry, I'd argue that he would have been a better owner if he had learned to tame his ego. Probably would have hired a GM at some point at least.

I don't think we've really been on a different page with this. Maybe only in that you think Jerry deserves more of the blame, while I believe the blame is equal because no matter whose ego was bigger, it only needed one of them to put the team ahead of themselves to keep the ship afloat. (Of course, I could be wrong about that. One man's ego can cause a lot of destruction.)

Jimmy went off the rails when Jerry took credit for the Everett trade. In fairness, Jones did broker the deal with DeBartolo because the Steelers did not like dealing with us.

Jimmy acted about as unprofessionally as possible to force his way out.

 

[gimmesix]

Jimmy went off the rails when Jerry took credit for the Everett trade. In fairness, Jones did broker the deal with DeBartolo because the Steelers did not like dealing with us.

Jimmy acted about as unprofessionally as possible to force his way out.

Yeah, it would have been nice if they both viewed themselves as a team working together to get the job done and accepted praise for it as a team instead of having to grab the glory. That's what Aikman was referring to: Jimmy telling all the players that taking one for the team meant winning even if it deferred their glory while neither he nor Jones was willing to take one for the team.

I usually don't get into these what-could-have-been discussions because they are fruitless, but I just can't let Jimmy go blameless while we rip apart backwoods Jerry over the split. It took both men to tear apart the team.

Now, anyone wants to rip apart Jerry for the mess we are in now, can totally blame him for all of it. Maybe Stephen deserves for that blame train to run over him as well, but if Jerry had ever wised up and put his ego aside, maybe Stephen would have gone with him. I guess we'll eventually see when Jerry is gone.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yeah, it would have been nice if they both viewed themselves as a team working together to get the job done and accepted praise for it as a team instead of having to grab the glory. That's what Aikman was referring to: Jimmy telling all the players that taking one for the team meant winning even if it deferred their glory while neither he nor Jones was willing to take one for the team.

I usually don't get into these what-could-have-been discussions because they are fruitless, but I just can't let Jimmy go blameless while we rip apart backwoods Jerry over the split. It took both men to tear apart the team.

Now, anyone wants to rip apart Jerry for the mess we are in now, can totally blame him for all of it. Maybe Stephen deserves for that blame train to run over him as well, but if Jerry had ever wised up and put his ego aside, maybe Stephen would have gone with him. I guess we'll eventually see when Jerry is gone.

Jerry is awful without good advisors. Lacewell, Switzer, Gailey, Phillips, and Marinelli all come to mind. Parcells and McClay also come to mind.

It is quite easy to point to drafting for backups, massively overpaying for marginal WR1, the annual reach for DE, etc.

Jerry generally did not take credit beyond the nebulous I am owner/GM. It's not like he was taking credit for every move and Everett was the proverbial straw. He did actually take an active role in that deal first finding it and then getting the Rooneys to actually deal.

The way that Jimmy acted was inexcusable and I don't see how any boss would take that type of treatment for a subordinate. Jimmy basically acted worse and worse until he got what he wanted.

Jerry has actually shown he can suborn his ego as shown with him ceding power to Jimmy, Parcells, and others over the years. They issue is who he decides to trust.

Jimmy simply never did and it's not like he was stellar with a franchise QB in Miami. His drafts were godawful.

 

[DallasEast]

Maybe only in that you think Jerry deserves more of the blame, while I believe the blame is equal because no matter whose ego was bigger, it only needed one of them to put the team ahead of themselves to keep the ship afloat.

I think our sub-discussion has run its course, so I am bowing out now. There was one last opinion I will express though.

Jimmy Johnson pre-Cowboys coaching resume demonstrated he did not prefer extended commitments with organizations. Johnson flustered enough feathers with the University of Miami's administration to show that to be true before he signed Jerry Jones' contract. The likelihood of him staying on as head coach much longer after 1994 was already quite slim. His constant needling of Jones' persona made certain his departure would end sooner than later.

Of course, the odds of him staying longer vanished once Jones pulled the trigger. It was Jones the employer, not Johnson the employee, who ultimately burned the last Jones/Johnson partnership to ash. And Johnson took the opportunity and ran with it.

At the fateful end, neither man put the team ahead of themselves. Yet, only one man eliminated any remote possibility of the continuation of their partnership beyond that fateful month of March. And that man was not Johnson.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I think our sub-discussion has run its course, so I am bowing out now. There was one last opinion I will express though.

Jimmy Johnson pre-Cowboys coaching resume demonstrated he did not prefer extended commitments with organizations. Johnson flustered enough feathers with the University of Miami's administration to show that to be true before he signed Jerry Jones' contract. The likelihood of him staying on as head coach much longer after 1994 was already quite slim. His constant needling of Jones' persona made certain his departure would end sooner than later.

Of course, the odds of him staying longer vanished once Jones pulled the trigger. It was Jones the employer, not Johnson the employee, who ultimately burned the last Jones/Johnson partnership to ash. And Johnson took the opportunity and ran with it.

At the fateful end, neither man put the team ahead of themselves. Yet, only one man eliminated any remote possibility of the continuation of their partnership beyond that fateful month of March. And that man was not Johnson.

Let's say you are an executive VP of a company. You talk extremely derogatory trash about the CEO to every VP, manager, reporter, and really anyone else that will listen what do you expect to happen?

Jimmy was actively trying to get out of his contract and kept acting worse and worse until Jerry fired him.

 

[TwoDeep3]

Jimmy made the comment about why didn't the expansion team contact him about a job opening. This was before the split. I fail to see how this isn't pertinent about Jimmy's mindset and attitude.
But addressing the 94 team, how would Jimmy have prevented the injuries the team took into San Francisco. And I don't believe anyone can ignore the game Aikman had against the Bills in the previous year's Super Bowl, with Jimmy at the helm of the team. Switzer did not make Aikman play poorly. But he also damn near brought the team back, and it took a blatant penalty by Sanders (arm bar on Irvin,) ignored by the refs to prevent a great comeback and a sure three-peat.

 

[gimmesix]

Jerry is awful without good advisors. Lacewell, Switzer, Gailey, Phillips, and Marinelli all come to mind. Parcells and McClay also come to mind.

It is quite easy to point to drafting for backups, massively overpaying for marginal WR1, the annual reach for DE, etc.

Jerry generally did not take credit beyond the nebulous I am owner/GM. It's not like he was taking credit for every move and Everett was the proverbial straw. He did actually take an active role in that deal first finding it and then getting the Rooneys to actually deal.

The way that Jimmy acted was inexcusable and I don't see how any boss would take that type of treatment for a subordinate. Jimmy basically acted worse and worse until he got what he wanted.

Jerry has actually shown he can suborn his ego as shown with him ceding power to Jimmy, Parcells, and others over the years. They issue is who he decides to trust.

Jimmy simply never did and it's not like he was stellar with a franchise QB in Miami. His drafts were godawful.

I do agree that Jerry has adjusted at times, and Parcells was a good example of that. I don't know if Jimmy would have turned into such a bad employee, though, without Jerry being Jerry. Both men wanted to bathe in the glory of their success, but they wanted to bathe alone. That's part of the reason that Jerry made his 500 coaches comment and part of the reason Jimmy did everything he could to get Jerry to get rid of him. Both thought that if they succeeded without the other then all the credit would be theirs. Instead, both showed they couldn't recapture the magic that built those teams ... teams we would not have had without either of them.

I think sometimes we get so caught up in what if that we forget about what was. Jerry and Jimmy were a combination that helped us win back-to-back Super Bowls. That's not easy to accomplish. They assembled the team, no matter who deserves the most credit for it, and it was a magic moment. It may have ended sooner than it should have or maybe the luster would have worn off on its own. I tend to try to dwell on what my team did accomplish instead of what my team might have accomplished. The early 1990s were a good time. I sure wished we'd see something like that again, even if it ends as ugly as it did then.

 

[gimmesix]

I think our sub-discussion has run its course, so I am bowing out now. There was one last opinion I will express though.

Jimmy Johnson pre-Cowboys coaching resume demonstrated he did not prefer extended commitments with organizations. Johnson flustered enough feathers with the University of Miami's administration to show that to be true before he signed Jerry Jones' contract. The likelihood of him staying on as head coach much longer after 1994 was already quite slim. His constant needling of Jones' persona made certain his departure would end sooner than later.

Of course, the odds of him staying longer vanished once Jones pulled the trigger. It was Jones the employer, not Johnson the employee, who ultimately burned the last Jones/Johnson partnership to ash. And Johnson took the opportunity and ran with it.

At the fateful end, neither man put the team ahead of themselves. Yet, only one man eliminated any remote possibility of the continuation of their partnership beyond that fateful month of March. And that man was not Johnson.

Ultimately maybe, but I think Johnson was set on forcing his way out the door no matter what. He just wanted to take as much money as he could with him. He's not a stupid man.

 

[DallasEast]

Let's say you are an executive VP of a company. You talk extremely derogatory trash about the CEO to every VP, manager, reporter, and really anyone else that will listen what do you expect to happen?

Jimmy was actively trying to get out of his contract and kept acting worse and worse until Jerry fired him.

Almost signed off. I already stated Johnson was trying to get himself canned.

Me? If I am the CEO, I would meet with my MVP executive vice-president face-to-face. I would attempt to discern the motivations and grievances the executive vice-president held against me and determine if there was any way to halt their negative behavior and salvage a professional relation that has been invaluable to the corporation up to that point. Only then would I make a decision.

Johnson wanted Jones to remove himself from everything he considered was his purview. Jones disagreed. The owner and president of the Dallas Cowboys franchise removed Johnson from the equation for irreconcilable differences. As an owner and self-appointed President of a National Football League franchise that was a two-time defending champion, I would have reflected upon any self-sacrifice (General Managership) I could make that would: a) possibly end my successful head coach's negative behavior and b) keep the Lombardi party together under him. Then I would pull the trigger if making self-concessions did not solve the problem.

The past is the past. Jones got one additional championship primarily from of his previous Johnson partnership. The trade-off worked for him during his 50's. Not many professional team owners can say that for themselves in any sport. Hopefully, he will regain that once-in-a-lifetime front office magic yet again during his 60's 70's 80's. Or in his 90's.

 

[Loso86]

Jimmy coaching that team I'm not so sure we lose 2 games and am pretty sure we land home field and the championship game woulda been different. In 94 we still had Harper and drafted Larry Allen and all the other core and role players. What a great team but sadly they just couldn't get over the HC and the Niners were stacked but again I think we win with Jimmy.

Goes both ways if it wasn't for Jimmy leaving we could say the same blah blah

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Almost signed off. I already stated Johnson was trying to get himself canned.

Me? If I am the CEO, I would meet with my MVP executive vice-president face-to-face. I would attempt to discern the motivations and grievances the executive vice-president held against me and determine if there was any way to halt their negative behavior and salvage a professional relation that has been invaluable to the corporation up to that point. Only then would I make a decision.

Johnson wanted Jones to remove himself from everything he considered was his purview. Jones disagreed. The owner and president of the Dallas Cowboys franchise removed Johnson from the equation for irreconcilable differences. As an owner and self-appointed President of a National Football League franchise that was a two-time defending champion, I would have reflected upon any self-sacrifice (General Managership) I could make that would: a) possibly end my successful head coach's negative behavior and b) keep the Lombardi party together under him. Then I would pull the trigger if making self-concessions did not solve the problem.

The past is the past. Jones got one additional championship primarily from of his previous Johnson partnership. The trade-off worked for him during his 50's. Not many professional team owners can say that for themselves in any sport. Hopefully, he will regain that once-in-a-lifetime front office magic yet again during his 60's 70's 80's. Or in his 90's.

He said the 500 coaches comments after Jimmy personally snubbed him at a party. That was after more than a year of Jimmy's backbiting over the Everett trade. I love how it is upon Jerry to be the one to take the high road and be judged equally culpable after one comment.

Jimmy was trying to get out way before and leading up to the party he was jsut doing the take a bad thing and make it worse routine.