The case for going for Lawrence

[CowboyoWales]

Here's the problem with those that want to use the cap difficulties as the reason to not sign Prescott. So say Prescott is no longer with the Cowboys and they draft a big name college QB . Now in the next 4 years the Cowboys don't get to or win any Super Bowls and during those 4 years the cost of QB's has risen even higher. Then the same people who now are saying cap difficulties for signing Prescott will be saying the same thing about the next QB, so the cycle continues of drafting QB's every 4 years until the Cowboys luck out and win a Super Bowl. Oh in the mean time Prescott had gone off to another team and won a couple of Super Bowls. Now all of this is just saying what could happen not that it will happen just like those that think the Cowboys if they sign Prescott will automatically not find a way to work around his salary.
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Well during the 4 years Jerry just needs to stop drafting and extending shiny offensive players.....the Dead Money we accumulate (eg Romo) certainly doesnt help.

 

[jaythecowboy]

My point is directed at people, and I wont mention any names @CowboysFaninHouston, who cannot see that a 3 year Dak deal starting in 2021, will seriously effect our CAP, as it's not in a great position (actually awful in 2021/22) and we wont have the flexibility to improve the team, other than through the draft , which will need more than 1 year to bear fruit.

I am responding to those those who just dismiss the CAP situation as being unimportant. Those that give historical justification whilst not appreciating that ALL our big contracts have been given on a long term basis, which for CAP purposes are bonus and backdated heavy (great examples - Lawrence, Cooper , T Smith and Martin).

Its the idea that some have that we signed: Poe, Griffin, Worley, Clinton-Dix and McCrory due to poor evauation of talent .... when in reality it was because that's all we could afford.

Dak signing for 5 years will at least give us a chance to defer CAP allocations allowing us to sign better than the dumpster bargains we got in 2020 FA.

This simply isn't true. Cutting Tyron Smith after this season would save money, and the rest we could cut after next season and save money.

 

[Diehardblues]

Both Mahomes and Rodgers won Super Bowls with defenses that weren't ranked in the bottom half or last in the league. The age old thing of comparing what QB's on different teams would do on another team is pointless because the QB would be playing with a entirely different group of players. It's happened so many times that a player was really good on one team and then is traded or signs as a free agent and never preforms as well on the next team because they find out that the other players on the first team help the player look so good.

As far as Lawrence I keep remembering back in 1998 all of the draft gurus and the entire sporting world were talking about 2 QB's in the draft and how both were going to be game changers for whichever teams draft them and will win Super Bowls. Most people thought one was going to be the 1st pick but it was the other one who was. Now that QB pick 1st went on to be a 5 time NFL MVP, 7 times All Pro, and had a 17 year career, won 2 Super Bowls and will be in the HOF. The QB taken with the 2nd pick was the runner up for the Heisman Trophy. Of the two QB's he had the size, a much bigger arm and the ability to escape out of the pocket and played in a system in college that more resembled an NFL style offense but lasted all of 5 years in the NFL and is considered one of the all time biggest busts. The 1st pick QB is Peyton Manning and the 2nd pick QB is Ryan Leaf. Most gurus and sports people thought the colts would take Leaf but instead took Manning. Both the draft gurus and sporting world were really wrong on Leaf meaning that not every QB they say will be the next all world just might not be. Again I'm not saying Lawrence will be a bust but if Leaf was thought of as high or even more highly than what Lawrence is now and turned out to be a bust there is no guarantee Lawrence won't too.
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Again I’ll emphasize we aren’t in a normal situation with our dysfunctional organization. We must think outside the box.

There’s no guarantees in the draft . Trevor could be a bust or he could be the next Mahomes. If he goes to a team that’s more playoff ready he’s more likely to have immediate success. And If I read right what Coach was trying to say.

This isn’t a slam on Dak but a slam on our ownership. We’d like to see what we could do if we had a freakish talent under center.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

My point is directed at people, and I wont mention any names @CowboysFaninHouston, who cannot see that a 3 year Dak deal starting in 2021, will seriously effect our CAP, as it's not in a great position (actually awful in 2021/22) and we wont have the flexibility to improve the team, other than through the draft , which will need more than 1 year to bear fruit.

I am responding to those those who just dismiss the CAP situation as being unimportant. Those that give historical justification whilst not appreciating that ALL our big contracts have been given on a long term basis, which for CAP purposes are bonus and backdated heavy (great examples - Lawrence, Cooper , T Smith and Martin).

Its the idea that some have that we signed: Poe, Griffin, Worley, Clinton-Dix and McCrory due to poor evauation of talent .... when in reality it was because that's all we could afford.

Dak signing for 5 years will at least give us a chance to defer CAP allocations allowing us to sign better than the dumpster bargains we got in 2020 FA.

show me one team that improved solely through FA. every team has to do it through draft and maybe a key FA.....successful teams build through draft, resigning their own free agents. check it out for yourself. you maybe surprised in a way that shatters your baseless argument. no team since FA has begun as build it team through FA. this notion of building through FA is ridiculous. the notion that we can't sign the player we may want in FA is ridiculous. its been debunked multiple times.

and the 3 year contract is a TOTAL ASSUMPTION on you part, as you have tried to argue that point and only that point, without any evidence to show there is a discussion of any kind on a 3 year contract.

you have nothing else to hang on to, except the made up assumption that Dak wants a 3 year deal and falsely claiming a 3 year deal will stop us from building a team through FA since seemingly that's the only way to build a team. whom in FA was available, that was going to be a difference maker on this defense that we couldn't sign in 2020?

come on dude. give up the fantasy.

 

[CowboyoWales]

Just think about it. How many teams would love to have a top 10 or as some in the sporting world say a top 5-6 QB instead of the QB they have? Lawrence is one of the best QB in COLLEGE but hasn't done anything in the NFL yet so to say that he guarantees the Cowboys future Super Bowls is right now just wishful thinking backed by nothing.
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Well on that principle, Dak's been in the NFL for 5 seasons and he's done anything in the NFL (unless you're classing 1 playoff win as doing something).

A balanced argument is that neither has done anything in the NFL, Dak has the experience, but will be paid $40m (though we'll get one extra 1st round draft pick), Lawrence could go either way, but will allow us to improve the team via Free Agency.

If we were NFCC game regulars we wouldnt be having this debate.

There is an argument for both sides.

 

[CowboyoWales]

show me one team that improved solely through FA. every team has to do it through draft and maybe a key FA.....successful teams build through draft, resigning their own free agents. check it out for yourself. you maybe surprised in a way that shatters your baseless argument. no team since FA has begun as build it team through FA. this notion of building through FA is ridiculous. the notion that we can't sign the player we may want in FA is ridiculous. its been debunked multiple times.

and the 3 year contract is a TOTAL ASSUMPTION on you part, as you have tried to argue that point and only that point, without any evidence to show there is a discussion of any kind on a 3 year contract.

you have nothing else to hang on to, except the made up assumption that Dak wants a 3 year deal and falsely claiming a 3 year deal will stop us from building a team through FA since seemingly that's the only way to build a team. whom in FA was available, that was going to be a difference maker on this defense that we couldn't sign in 2020?

come on dude. give up the fantasy.

Basing the '3 year deal' as it was reported Dak insisted on 4 years last year.

And you're wrong on how to build a team, you still need to sign FA's to: fill out your roster, provide back-up (its all about the team, not just QB) and when available make the big splash if the player will make a dramatic improvement.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Basing the '3 year deal' as it was reported Dak insisted on 4 years last year.

And you're wrong on how to build a team, you still need to sign FA's to: fill out your roster, provide back-up (its all about the team, not just QB) and when available make the big splash if the player will make a dramatic improvement.

last year is last year.

you are making an assumption on the 3 year deal, its nothing but an assumption.

you don't build a team through FA. you sing a key FA here and there......and even a three year deal doesn't stop us from doing that, since there are 8 other large contracts on the team that can be changed to accommodate any cap space we want.

and tell me which splash defensive player was available in FA that would have made a difference with this defense, making it elite that we couldnt' sign? that's with dak in the books for 31.5M

FACTS are that we haven't drafted well defensively for years....but hey, lets forget that, "I can't win that argument" and lets stick to the agenda, a made up assumption that has no basis in reality so that I can argue...

 

[atlantacowboy]

I actually have no problem with Booger running his team, never have, he bought it and can ruin it. Not a typo.

My problem with him has always been him, not the GM or owner him, but that needy celebrity him, I think he's pathetic, like some old actress trying to remain relevant. And the ******* has run his mouth for decades and still cannot form cognitive sentences.

And you are right, I start a thread or make a post, I expect disagreement and discord with my opinion but it is mine and I will defend it the best I can while respecting others' opinions (as deadass wrong as they might be) and this does not get personal with me.

I can disagree with anyone here and still agree that their opinion is just as important and valid to them as mine is to me. It is my opinion and open to disagreement but that doesn't mean I don't still like that poster and discussing stuff with them.

Having the right to do something does not free oneself from consequences. Nobody argues that Jerry doesn't own the team or have the right to do what he pleases. But, there are consequences to ruining the franchise. He wants to be liked and respected.....admired as a football man more than anything, and those are things his money and ownership can't buy.

 

[CowboyoWales]

This simply isn't true. Cutting Tyron Smith after this season would save money, and the rest we could cut after next season and save money.

Conveniently you miss out on the whole scenario.

Yes, we can cut Tyron, but how much do we actually save ($5.1m). The who do we actually get to play LT? Draft Sewell and there we go again ignore the defense.

AFTER 2021 we can:

1) Cut Zeke = $5.7m saving - swallowed up in Pollard extention
2) Cooper = $16m saving - swallowed up in Gallup extention
3) Lawrence = $8m saving = replacement for $8m???
4) Jaylon = $5m saving = replacement for $5m?

Easy to subtract, more difficult to replace.

 

[CowboyoWales]

last year is last year.

you are making an assumption on the 3 year deal, its nothing but an assumption.

you don't build a team through FA. you sing a key FA here and there......and even a three year deal doesn't stop us from doing that, since there are 8 other large contracts on the team that can be changed to accommodate any cap space we want.

and tell me which splash defensive player was available in FA that would have made a difference with this defense, making it elite that we couldnt' sign? that's with dak in the books for 31.5M

FACTS are that we haven't drafted well defensively for years....but hey, lets forget that, "I can't win that argument" and lets stick to the agenda, a made up assumption that has no basis in reality so that I can argue...

I told you yesterday who we could of signed at DT instead of Poe.

I didnt say ONLY FAgency, start reading before moving your fingers.

So you agree that there wont be a 3 year deal, im glad we agree.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

I told you yesterday who we could of signed at DT instead of Poe.

I didnt say ONLY FAgency, start reading before moving your fingers.

So you agree that there wont be a 3 year deal, im glad we agree.

I never said there will be a three year deal and no three year deal. you are the one who made up a fantasy assumption and arguing a 3 year deal. at this point there are no discussions on any deals until after the season....until then you are just creating your own circle asking people to come in to your circle.....except that you are the only one in it and nobody is joining you...enjoy the circle.

again, you are arguing with yourself....you made everything up to argue and nothing but just to argue

btw, we could have signed those players, they were all meh. no difference makers. nothing to write home about. I mean Suh...really....Suh, as if he was going to make a difference on this team. and again, you don't build a team through FA. you don't build a defense through FA. you don't build a championship team through FA. like I said, a player or two, not 4 or 5....when you try to sign 4 or 5 FAs to build your defense, its an absolute sign you failed in your drafts.

come on dude, you are grasping at straws yet again. when will you learn?

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

so what? Ryan Leaf was drafted in the first round and so many QBs player better than him. Dak also walked into the best OL in the league and the best RG in the league and sucked when Zeke was suspended and Cooper wasn’t here..

show me a QB that set the world on fire who didn't have a legit WR or running back?

 

[G2]

Oh! I see, so Dak’s record at QB means both and it is misleading to give him credit for the wins. I wish you would share this with the Dak slobbers. Have you ever considered that these games would be much closer if Dak and the offense didn’t turn the ball over and actually put some drives together in the first half ? Teams have built up large leads by the time that the 4th quarter has come. None of these games with Dak have been close until the defense goes into prevent and let’s the Cowboys burn up the clock. You are right, the defense is horrible, but Dak and the offense has done nothing to help during the first 2-3 quarters of the game.

Your 4th quarter theory is flawed at best.

To be clear, you just suggested that "Dak and the offense has done nothing to help during the first 2-3 quarters of the game."


I'll point out where you're mistaken with regard to points during a game.

• Vs. the LA Rams, all of our points were in the first 3 quarters. None in the 4th. We had the lead going into the 2nd quarter and were about tied the first half.
• Vs. Atlanta, 24 points were scored in the 1st three quarters, only 16 in the 4th.
• Vs. Seattle, 22 points were scored in the 1st three quarters, only 9 in the 4th.
• Vs. Cleveland, you can only look at the 4th quarter and use your nonsense theory. We were far behind, what do you think a team should do, NOT try to score points to win?
• Vs. NY, we scored 38 points in the 1st three quarters, only 6 points in the 4th.

So 1 game out of the 5 Prescott played CLEARLY is the exact opposite of your false claim.

Now, do you want me to do your homework further and research the opposing defensive scheme? Because that would also be proven wrong considering that I just showed you that our offense put up more numbers outside the 4th quarter. Any reasonable defensive coordinator would NOT have there defense in prevent.

 

[xwalker]

You made some valid points until you labeled Lawrence the consensus, #1 QB prospect in the upcoming draft. as "1 college player". If Lawrence lives up to his draft status/billing, he will be a Pro Bowl player, and certainly more talented than "1 college player".

He is 1 player to the Cowboys.

Tom Brady is his prime with Belichick as HC could not get this roster to the Super Bowl.

How many #1 overall pick QBs have been as great as fans pre-draft opinions?

None of Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes were #1 overall picks.

Was the last one Payton Manning?

The draft is all about probabilities and the probability of Lawrence being Payton Manning level great is low based on draft history of #1 overall picks.

The Cowboys have a proven QB that was on an unprecedented pace of offensive production despite 2 udfa OTs.

Teams that have been on the trade down side of big trades up for top 2 QBs in the draft have historically fared better than the teams that traded up for the QB.

 

[CowboyoWales]

I never said there will be a three year deal and no three year deal. you are the one who made up a fantasy assumption and arguing a 3 year deal. at this point there are no discussions on any deals until after the season....until then you are just creating your own circle asking people to come in to your circle.....except that you are the only one in it and nobody is joining you...enjoy the circle.

again, you are arguing with yourself....you made everything up to argue and nothing but just to argue

btw, we could have signed those players, they were all meh. no difference makers. nothing to write home about. I mean Suh...really....Suh, as if he was going to make a difference on this team. and again, you don't build a team through FA. you don't build a defense through FA. you don't build a championship team through FA. like I said, a player or two, not 4 or 5....when you try to sign 4 or 5 FAs to build your defense, its an absolute sign you failed in your drafts.

come on dude, you are grasping at straws yet again. when will you learn?

You dont need All Pro's, it's about improving the team and covering weaknesses, teams are only as their weaknesses. If you havent got money you just have to accept the basement dwellers that are left.

As I say i'm pleased you agree that 3 years is a fantasy assumption. I apologize if it wasnt you that insisted that we could afford a 3 year deal.

But both sides are negotiating, just cant announce any agreement until next year.

 

[RonnieT24]

Tell me the extremely highly regarded QB taken with the 2nd pick in the 1998 draft, who was the runner up for the Heisman Trophy and most thought was going to be the 1st pick in the draft, just how many wins/losses and playoff wins did he have in his entire career?
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This dude's a troll.. Ask him to go back and look at the Cowboys schedule and let us know at what point this year the Cowboys were 1-4. He can't even post a won-loss record without adding in a lie. And he swore Andy Dalton was a better QB than Dak and the offense was going to be even better now that Dak wasn't there to "hold it back." I remember that proclamation every time he writes something.. and then skip on by ... Liars and trolls aren't worth responding to.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

You dont need All Pro's, it's about improving the team and covering weaknesses, teams are only as their weaknesses. If you havent got money you just have to accept the basement dwellers that are left.

As I say i'm pleased you agree that 3 years is a fantasy assumption. I apologize if it wasnt you that insisted that we could afford a 3 year deal.

But both sides are negotiating, just cant announce any agreement until next year.

if you have to go to FA and sign 5 players on defense, starters..... only to "improve!" your team...then you have failed in your draft....you are trying to build through FA, no other way to put it.... and it will get expensive if you want good players, and that is even if they are available....usually FAs worth their dollars are expensive, everybody else is flawed that's why they are FAs that their teams didn't want to resign...... If we had drafted well, we could have taken the money for Poe, MCCoy, Dixon, Griffin and sign one or two impact players perhaps some of those you thought were any good (Suh...seriously!!!!)..... when you have to sign so many, it impacts all other areas of your team. 4 players is about 45% of your defensive team. that will never be a successful strategy even if you have a minimum wage QB playing for you. show me one team that signed 4, 5 starting FA on one side of the ball and was successful?

again, if you have to rob paul to pay peter, you are going to lose regardless.....the problem is we have been very bad at drafting defensive players, now...sitting here, you fantasize about a contract length for Dak trying to justify why that would lead to a winning superbowl level team!!!! that's asinine..... until we change the organization and learn how to draft better defensively, not continuously miss on 2nd round picks...we are going to be in this same boat for a very long time as we have been (continue to be on it).

you can not build through FA, no matter how much of a favorable contract you get from any one player or two....and building through FA is what you just described for us to have to been able to do......

you are trying to argue a point that is addressing a symptom not the problem. you have no other answer, so you spin it into your agenda.... and its a spin, you know it all too well.....you have an agenda to drive, you are laser focused on a fantasy made up, totally assumed length of contract without any evidence that there is such a negotiation to begin with... and even argue that your fantasy is valid and even argue that point, when there is no evidence to that at all....NONE.

and if both sides are in negotiations and can't announce until next year, we have no idea, ZERO about their negotiations....so I can fantasize and say they are negotiating a 8-10 year deal!!! there would be absolutely zero merits or truth to it, but hey if I want to argue, lets make up something to argue about. which is exactly what you have done...

so which team signed a bunch of high priced FAs and successfully reached a superbowl?

 

[CowboyoWales]

if you have to go to FA and sign 5 players on defense, starters..... only to "improve!" your team...then you have failed in your draft....you are trying to build through FA, no other way to put it.... and it will get expensive if you want good players, and that is even if they are available....usually FAs worth their dollars are expensive, everybody else is flawed that's why they are FAs that their teams didn't want to resign...... If we had drafted well, we could have taken the money for Poe, MCCoy, Dixon, Griffin and sign one or two impact players perhaps some of those you thought were any good (Suh...seriously!!!!)..... when you have to sign so many, it impacts all other areas of your team. 4 players is about 45% of your defensive team. that will never be a successful strategy even if you have a minimum wage QB playing for you. show me one team that signed 4, 5 starting FA on one side of the ball and was successful?

again, if you have to rob paul to pay peter, you are going to lose regardless.....the problem is we have been very bad at drafting defensive players, now...sitting here, you fantasize about a contract length for Dak trying to justify why that would lead to a winning superbowl level team!!!! that's asinine..... until we change the organization and learn how to draft better defensively, not continuously miss on 2nd round picks...we are going to be in this same boat for a very long time as we have been (continue to be on it).

you can not build through FA, no matter how much of a favorable contract you get from any one player or two....and building through FA is what you just described for us to have to been able to do......

you are trying to argue a point that is addressing a symptom not the problem. you have no other answer, so you spin it into your agenda.... and its a spin, you know it all too well.....you have an agenda to drive, you are laser focused on a fantasy made up, totally assumed length of contract without any evidence that there is such a negotiation to begin with... and even argue that your fantasy is valid and even argue that point, when there is no evidence to that at all....NONE.


and if both sides are in negotiations and can't announce until next year, we have no idea, ZERO about their negotiations....so I can fantasize and say they are negotiating a 8-10 year deal!!! there would be absolutely zero merits or truth to it, but hey if I want to argue, lets make up something to argue about. which is exactly what you have done...

so which team signed a bunch of high priced FAs and successfully reached a superbowl?

8-10 years = id prefer that to a 3 year contract. The last couple of years wouldnt much guaranteed money to lose when he's eventually cut (unless he's still a good QB in his mid-30's).

Im not saying you have to spend big on 4 or 5 FA's, two would do. Unfortunately, we're unable to retain our FA's (Cobb, Jones, Heath, Quinn) as we dont have the CAP Space.

 

[gjkoeppen]

I understand but like I have said with our dysfunctional organization we must think beyond the norm.

I’ve asked several times with no response on this thread and I’ll ask again in case you missed it. Which this question drives our thought process.

Do you think a Mahomes type talent takes this dysfunctional franchise further ? Or is Dak the only one who can?

It's a foolish question. First a Mahomes type and I think you're referring to Lawrence hasn't proven a thing in the NFL. Second Mahomes has already proven himself in the NFL. Third unlike those that think can you just plug in a different QB and that is going to change things I've always said it's a team game and the QB needs the ENTIRE team to be successful. Next yes Mahomes has done well with the chiefs but that by no means he would have the same success with the Cowboys. There is a QB that won a Super Bowl with one team and then later on another team he won another one but there are many that say that 2nd team won that Super Bowl despite the play of the QB. The QB is Peyton Manning and the 2nd team is the broncos and many have said that it wasn't Manning's play that won the Super Bowl. This is why playing the what if this QB is a fools game.
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[CowboysFaninHouston]

8-10 years = id prefer that to a 3 year contract. The last couple of years wouldnt much guaranteed money to lose when he's eventually cut (unless he's still a good QB in his mid-30's).

Im not saying you have to spend big on 4 or 5 FA's, two would do. Unfortunately, we're unable to retain our FA's (Cobb, Jones, Heath, Quinn) as we dont have the CAP Space.

Cobb? not a big loss. he was easily replaced by wilson. the staff has insider information....I call that the right call, not losing a FA we wanted.

Jones...not sure why we did that, we could have kept him if we wanted to but that goes exactly to my point, if we hadn't messed up the defensive personnel management for so long we wouldn't need to sign 4, 5 FA to help the defense, thus spread the money. we would be able to retain Jones....

Heath....how many years have people wanted to get rid of heath and upgrade the position, since we continuously ignored it in draft....we could have easily kept him, but chose otherwise.

Quinn. sucked. his run defense was atrocious, he was replaced by another similarly priced FA in griffin....neither of them were any good.

so yeah, none of them mattered really.