The case for making Guyton the 2024 swing tackle

_sturt_

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there is no way Bakhtiari is a better option even in the present
If you really believe that, that's fine. I don't even barely. To be fair to you, I can't know what the 32 year-old version of Bakhtiari looks like. He could be washed. But 32 isn't ordinarily terribly old for an O-lineman, so I'm inclined to believe that if the guy is back to the health that saw him start every game in 2022 for GB, he's not so far gone that he's a lesser player than a kid who even the most optimistic draft scouting reports considered something less than ready to plug and play.
 

_sturt_

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If Guyton doesn't start, he still won't be the swing OT... If they don't feel he can learn it fast enough for game 1 they certainly aren't going to ask him to play both.
Not so fast. There's somewhat obviously a difference between a kid being ready to start at LT after having played RT all his college snaps... and a kid being ready enough to fill-in at either of those positions. It's not like he's not already groomed for the right side. So, no... it happens with some frequency in this league that guys get drafted with the intention to let them be the primary backup at both tackle slots... they certainly could... mere dismissiveness on its own is routinely not very persuasive from where I sit.
 

HungryLion

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Here's what Merriam-Webster.com has...

Characterized by pretension: such as making usually unjustified or excessive claims (as of value or standing).


It is an unjustified or excessive claim to say you believe the Cowboys have already eliminated themselves from contention for the holy grail in 2024. (But you're entitled to your opinion, of course.)
My prediction and comment has nothing to do with my value or standing. Which means it’s not pretentious.

Otherwise every single time a fan makes a prediction it could be seen as pretentious.

I could say you’re being pretentious for thinking the cowboys have a shot at winning a Super Bowl this year or for thinking maybe they shoudlnt start Guyton because one of the backups might be better than him to start the season.
 

Proof

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I don't want to seem too snarky, so I'll just assure you that my internet search engine works really, really well... as, I'd bet, yours does as well.
some people rather engage in conversation on their beloved message board than google. there may at times be addtl context to a question that's easier to discuss than to hunt.
 

JohnsKey19

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Mt guy...you're dreaming if you think the Joneses let Tyron walk, then draft an OT in the 1st round and NOT run him out there as the starter day 1.
 

_sturt_

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Mt guy...you're dreaming if you think the Joneses let Tyron walk, then draft an OT in the 1st round and NOT run him out there as the starter day 1.
Okay, but let's draw a line of distinction here so we're clear...

I'm not proposing what will happen.

I'm proposing what should happen. And saying why it should.
 

Brooksey

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CowboysZone DIEHARD Fan
Allow me please to more brazenly advocate tonight than ever before... Guyton may be the long-term answer, yet not be the short-term answer at LT.

Some already knew this stuff. I confess I did not. See below.






https://www.pff.com/news/draft-buyer-beware-2024-nfl-draft-prospects

Offensive line grading is one of the most stable and predictable data points for future NFL success, and Guyton doesn't check all of the boxes.

His grading profile from 2022 to 2023 is remarkably consistent, albeit at the low end of the spectrum. His 66.2 overall grade in 2022 is almost identical to his 66.3 grade in 2023. His pass-blocking grade was 72.9 in both years, which is respectable but not a great mark. His run blocking is the biggest concern, as he graded out at 62.1 in 2022 and 60.5 in 2023.

On inside-zone runs, Guyton earned a 58.1 grade, with a greater than 2-to-1 negative-to-positive-grade ratio. On all other runs, he recorded a near 1-to-1 ratio. With inside zone being the most prevalent run scheme in the NFL, teams will need to be mindful when considering the big man from Oklahoma.



https://cowboyswire.usatoday.com/2024/05/10/cowboys-tyler-guyton-biggest-challenge/

Guyton specifically struggled with inside-zone runs at Oklahoma. The same inside-zone Brian Schottenheimer is famous for running as an offensive coordinator. Guyton’s negative grades on inside-zone runs beat out his positive grades more than 2-to-1.

A blown assignment on a running play may not sound like a significant event given total number of players involved in blocking for a running play, but the numbers tell a different tale: On a running play with zero negatively graded blocks, running plays historically have a 60.2% success rate. On plays with one or more negative graded blocks that success rate drops to 25.7%. Understandably the EPA follows suit, dropping from +0.27 to -0.27.


It shows one bad block can make all the difference in the running game and both phases of the game should be seen as single point failure areas for offensive linemen and not just pass-protection.

For Guyton, it’s not about the pancake blocks or the highlight-reel peaks in performance, it’s about cutting out the blown assignments and lowlight-reel valleys in performance.



If we get to Oxnard, and that appears to be the prevailing conclusion, of course, we have some alternatives in-house... the leading one likely being that you move Tyler to LT, and TJ to LG.

Me, I'd rather just take the proposition of Guyton starting off the table, given that almost no one believes he's going to be a capable left tackle for Dak and for the running game in week one. It's too important a position, in my opinion, to pencil him in there, and make it his job to lose.

Rather, I'm a proponent for going out of house for an cagey old veteran LT whose price on the open market probably is significantly slashed as a consequence that 2 of the last 3 seasons have been lost seasons for him healthwise... but supposedly, he is already deemed healthy for 2024, and conceivably, he could be attracted to a reunion with his old head coach. Sign 32 yr old David Bakhtiari to be the #1 for 2024, unless/until the kid just overwhelms and makes it irrational to keep him as the swing tackle... or unless/until injury forces Guyton into the line-up.

Guyton will be fine at LT game one. He has good feet, pass blocking will be his strength.
 

gimmesix

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Allow me please to more brazenly advocate tonight than ever before... Guyton may be the long-term answer, yet not be the short-term answer at LT.

Some already knew this stuff. I confess I did not. See below.






https://www.pff.com/news/draft-buyer-beware-2024-nfl-draft-prospects

Offensive line grading is one of the most stable and predictable data points for future NFL success, and Guyton doesn't check all of the boxes.

His grading profile from 2022 to 2023 is remarkably consistent, albeit at the low end of the spectrum. His 66.2 overall grade in 2022 is almost identical to his 66.3 grade in 2023. His pass-blocking grade was 72.9 in both years, which is respectable but not a great mark. His run blocking is the biggest concern, as he graded out at 62.1 in 2022 and 60.5 in 2023.

On inside-zone runs, Guyton earned a 58.1 grade, with a greater than 2-to-1 negative-to-positive-grade ratio. On all other runs, he recorded a near 1-to-1 ratio. With inside zone being the most prevalent run scheme in the NFL, teams will need to be mindful when considering the big man from Oklahoma.



https://cowboyswire.usatoday.com/2024/05/10/cowboys-tyler-guyton-biggest-challenge/

Guyton specifically struggled with inside-zone runs at Oklahoma. The same inside-zone Brian Schottenheimer is famous for running as an offensive coordinator. Guyton’s negative grades on inside-zone runs beat out his positive grades more than 2-to-1.

A blown assignment on a running play may not sound like a significant event given total number of players involved in blocking for a running play, but the numbers tell a different tale: On a running play with zero negatively graded blocks, running plays historically have a 60.2% success rate. On plays with one or more negative graded blocks that success rate drops to 25.7%. Understandably the EPA follows suit, dropping from +0.27 to -0.27.


It shows one bad block can make all the difference in the running game and both phases of the game should be seen as single point failure areas for offensive linemen and not just pass-protection.

For Guyton, it’s not about the pancake blocks or the highlight-reel peaks in performance, it’s about cutting out the blown assignments and lowlight-reel valleys in performance.



If we get to Oxnard, and that appears to be the prevailing conclusion, of course, we have some alternatives in-house... the leading one likely being that you move Tyler to LT, and TJ to LG.

Me, I'd rather just take the proposition of Guyton starting off the table, given that almost no one believes he's going to be a capable left tackle for Dak and for the running game in week one. It's too important a position, in my opinion, to pencil him in there, and make it his job to lose.

Rather, I'm a proponent for going out of house for an cagey old veteran LT whose price on the open market probably is significantly slashed as a consequence that 2 of the last 3 seasons have been lost seasons for him healthwise... but supposedly, he is already deemed healthy for 2024, and conceivably, he could be attracted to a reunion with his old head coach. Sign 32 yr old David Bakhtiari to be the #1 for 2024, unless/until the kid just overwhelms and makes it irrational to keep him as the swing tackle... or unless/until injury forces Guyton into the line-up.

I think our fallback is kicking Tyler out to left tackle and finding a starting left guard/center combo from among Bass, Beebe, Hoffman, Richards, Edoga ...

My hope is if he's not ready, Richards is and we don't have to move Tyler or play Hoffman at center.

The lineup would be Guyton-Tyler-Beebe-Martin-Steele or Richards-Tyler-Beebe-Martin-Steele.
 

_sturt_

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I remain uncertain where all this presumption of Richards as an asset already is coming from. I mean, to be fair, I haven't heard anything bad, either... but I haven't heard anything good.

I'd be more inclined to think a healthy Waletzko in his 3rd season could be an option than I am Richards in his 2nd.
 

buybuydandavis

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Request denied. Cowboys aren’t winning a Super Bowl this year. Doesn’t matter. Let
Him play and get experience.
That's the counter argument, and it does seem to be their attitude as well.

I like Beebe, but really, a 3rd round rookie is supposed to be a plug and play quality oline starter? Generally just not how it works or teams wouldn't be signing veterans in free agency, they'd just pluck themselves another starter from the 3rd Round Starter Tree.
And at a position he hasn't started at before?
This is what's called hope over experience.

And Guyton is clearly a developmental project at his own position, drafted for traits.

They went out of their way to draft players who should be expected to have growing pains as rookies. Part of this is not merely focusing on the future, but rubbing Dak's nose in it in the hope of getting him to request/accept a trade rather than play behind an oline with 2 players who are going to break down, and often.

And then doing nothing in the draft at RB. One of the easiest positions to get a decent player cheap, and we spent *nothing* in the draft to make that happen. And then we sign a washed up veteran to be our starting RB. Ugh.

The bar for improving at RB was set so low. And we just refused out of spite.
 

JoeKing

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McCarthy has 1 season to save his job here. He isn't going to play games with the O-line in hopes it benefits future seasons. It's time to win now.
 

_sturt_

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That's the counter argument, and it does seem to be their attitude as well.

I like Beebe, but really, a 3rd round rookie is supposed to be a plug and play quality oline starter? Generally just not how it works or teams wouldn't be signing veterans in free agency, they'd just pluck themselves another starter from the 3rd Round Starter Tree.
And at a position he hasn't started at before?
This is what's called hope over experience.

And Guyton is clearly a developmental project at his own position, drafted for traits.

They went out of their way to draft players who should be expected to have growing pains as rookies. Part of this is not merely focusing on the future, but rubbing Dak's nose in it in the hope of getting him to request/accept a trade rather than play behind an oline with 2 players who are going to break down, and often.

And then doing nothing in the draft at RB. One of the easiest positions to get a decent player cheap, and we spent *nothing* in the draft to make that happen. And then we sign a washed up veteran to be our starting RB. Ugh.

The bar for improving at RB was set so low. And we just refused out of spite.
I just don't think they had much choice. There wasn't going to be a plug-and-play LT in the back third of the first round, and that was the paramount need. Couldn't justify moving up by trading draft capital, because they had too many FA-depleted roster slots needing filled. D-Line was almost as important, so I for one had been persuaded they'd go that direction with their 2nd. Then, in the 3rd, once you draft Beebe, it came down to drafting a RB or drafting a Zimmer pet cat... and I can't argue with that decision, either.

And I just don't believe that Jerry is anxious at his age to give up on any season prematurely. They're not giving up on 2024, they're just dealing with the hand they have to play with. The cap situation is a math thing, and with next year's impending doom, they couldn't reasonably be as open to pushing money into future years like they have done in the past.

And speaking of 2025... furthering that point... the open secret is that they will be predisposed to give up on next season... so, given all I just recited... they sure as hell don't want to consider two consecutive seasons as lost seasons when Jerry's really in the twilight of his life.

That said... I wish I could argue with everything you said, but I can't. It's true that not only is there great reason to be skeptical of Guyton's first season, but yes, Beebe as well, given that he clearly wasn't regarded as a primo talent by most of the league... but we're anticipating he'll come in and dominate?... at center???

On that last one, I take some comfort from the fact that we've heard so much positive about Hoffman from Solari.

And in fact, if you ask me what I anticipate will actually happen...

Quite honestly, I think it does make a difference that we now know Myles Garrett will be on the other side of the line in Game #1... I find it difficult to imagine that Guyton will so impress in the preseason that they won't flinch. He could. But that seems wildly optimistic to me.

So... the conventional wisdom from here is that we'll see the default line after all... Tyler Smith | TJ Bass | Brock Hoffman | Zack Martin | Terrence Steele
 

Beaker42

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If we get to Oxnard, and that appears to be the prevailing conclusion, of course, we have some alternatives in-house... the leading one likely being that you move Tyler to LT, and TJ to LG.
Put Asim Richards at LT and leave Smith at LG. Beebe at OC and put Guyton at RT and bench Steele’s worthless hide.
 
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