The Myles Jack Myth

[Rogerthat12]

Just to play devil's advocate, no one knows his current weight. If he shows up at the combine at 245 and moved as good as many suspect, he'll quiet a lot of critics.

He still lacks experience at the position though. I've said all along I think he could develop into a special player, but I think he is going to need more time than a lot of people want to admit and I also think he's definitely better suited to play WILL because of his athleticism.

You are incorrect, Jack and his team know his current weight, certainly weight can fluctuate within 5 pounds for most of us but they have indicated he is currently at 245, that is why the scouts and everyone are saying this accordingly.

You may be right on best fit with the will regardless and that he needs grooming to be sure.

You could argue much less grooming would be needed at the will, just go get them now!

 

[texbumthelife]

You are incorrect, Jack and his team know his current weight, certainly weight can fluctuate within 5 pounds for most of us but they have indicated he is currently at 245, that is why the scouts and everyone are saying this accordingly.

You may be right on best fit with the will regardless and that he needs grooming to be sure.

You could argue much less grooming would be needed at the will, just go get them now!

You're right, because teams never ***** the weights of their players. Players never show up to the combine at significantly different weights than advertised.

You believe everything you read/are told?

I'm an African Prince. Send me $10k and I will send you back $10 million.

 

[Wood]

Luke Kuechly is 2 inches taller and weighs less than Jack reportedly does right now. So being tall keeps you healthy is what you're saying? Any more stout medical advice to dish out?

I posted this in 1 of the other 6 Jack threads there but you apparently need to see it. This was me going through the tackles leaders from last year(minus levy).

Bowman- 6' 242
D'Quell Jackson- 6' 242
David- 6'1 233
Posluszny- 6'1 240
CJ Mosley- 6'2 235
Kuechly- 6'3 238
Timmons- 6'1 234
Wagner- 6' 242
Trevathan- 6'1 240
Tulloch- 5'11 245
Kendricks- 6' 232
K'Won Alexander- 6'1 227
Levy- 6'2 235
Worrilow- 6'1 231

So again, in what world is 6'1 240 too small to play LB?

I am not opposed to drafting under-sized LB but not in top 5 of draft. How many of names above where top 5 pick?

 

[Rogerthat12]

You're right, because teams never ***** the weights of their players. Players never show up to the combine at significantly different weights than advertised.

You believe everything you read/are told?

I'm an African Prince. Send me $10k and I will send you back $10 million.

Again, this is the team that is working with Jack for the combine, not just his college team.

If Jack states he is 245 and he has accordingly, should I believe you over Jack because you think you are an African Prince?

Jack steps on the scale probably often with the combine two weeks away, can he not read the scale that is front of him because you think he is undersized and him being between 240-250 undermines your contention?

Jack may come in at 240, 245, 250 regardless but he is still in the range of most top LB's in the NFL, Shazier is 237 and looks great now.

Every outlet including his college, the scouts and Jack himself have stated he is in the 245 range, it is simply a fact.

The combine will settle this once and for all, I have little doubt he will weigh in between 240-250 at the combine.

Jack has indicated he played at between 240-250 most recently and was currently 245, if you choose to not believe him then you do not know Jack!

If I were you, claiming he was undersized, I would feel compelled to deny everything Jack and every latest report has been saying concerning his weight as well, too bad everything says 245, even Jack himself!

 

[tm1119]

I am not opposed to drafting under-sized LB but not in top 5 of draft. How many of names above where top 5 pick?

http://i188.***BLOCKED***/albums/z284/oblongman7/Scrubs/b6488ee3.gif

No, not undersized. Normal sized. I said I went down the list of tackle leaders from last year, not the list of undersized linebackers tackle leaders. Those are 14 of probably the top 20 or so best non pass rushing LB's in the league. Making anybody 6'2+ and 240+ the minority. See how that works now? Good.

And I don't give a damn who was picked when, where, how, or at what position. I want to pick the best football player possible. And regardless of whether you want to admit it or not Jack is in that discussion.

 

[texbumthelife]

Again, this is the team that is working with Jack for the combine, not just his college team.

If Jack states he is 245 and he has accordingly, should I believe you over Jack because you think you are an African Prince?

I never said he isn't 245lbs. I simply said we should wait and see what he's at when he shows up. There is some disconnect between him not being able to run at the combine, but him being able to do enough strength training to regain that weight that quickly. I'm not saying it'snot possible, but it is a little odd.

Jack steps on the scale probably often with the combine two weeks away, can he not read the scale that is front of him because you think he is undersized and him being between 240-250 undermines your contention?

First of all, I thought we both knew I was inferring that there is misinformation being handed out. Not that Jack can't read a scale, but that a number is being put out there regardless, to keep his stock up. It happens every single year. If you're unaware of this phenomenon then you aren't quite as educated on the NFL Draft and combine as I give you credit for.

Second, I have never once said he is undersized. I know you want to fight that battle with everyone, because you feel like you can win it, but I am not one of the people making that argument, so give it a rest.

Jack may come in at 240, 245, 250 regardless but he is still in the range of most top LB's in the NFL, Shazier is 237 and looks great now.

See above.

Every outlet including his college, the scouts and Jack himself have stated he is in the 245 range, it is simply a fact.

See above.

The combine will settle this once and for all, I have little doubt he will weigh in between 240-250 at the combine.

Of course it will. That's what I have said all along. Nice of you to give up this redundant argument and see the light.

Jack has indicated he played at between 240-250 most recently and was currently 245, if you choose to not believe him then you do not know Jack!

See above.

If I were you, claiming he was undersized, I would feel compelled to deny everything Jack and every latest report has been saying concerning his weight as well, too bad everything says 245, even Jack himself!

See above.

I am honestly compelled to think you are either fairly young, or very naive. Starting in HS, coaches, trainers and especially players embellish and/or decrease their measurements and weights in order to fit more ideal molds for their position. It happens consistently and constantly and every year a significant number of guys show up to the combine who have claimed for months, if not years do be something they're not. For that reason, it is widely agreed that no measurements matter until the official ones at the combine.

You can continue to have this imaginary argument about me trying to fulfill some agenda, but you'll just be further exposing your absolute lack of understanding.

 

[Rogerthat12]

Your words:

"For me, I think Myles Jack's issues are going to come from a combination of lack of experience and size, not just one or the other."

"I will say, whether you agree with it or not, smaller players have a harder time getting off blocks."

The above clearly demonstrates your thoughts on the matter, saying size may not be the only issue but certainly one of them and using "smaller" language is crystal clear on the matter!

Either you are in great denial or you are clearly contradicting yourself while talking out of both sides of your mouth!!

The combine will answer the question of weight officially speaking but what we know right now, from Jack himself, is that he is currently in the 245 range.

We go off of the evidence we currently have unless proven otherwise, not assume the negative just to underwrite an argument on size.

Why be dishonest about this fact if he will only be proven a liar in two weeks? This makes little to no sense whatsoever because his stock would be inflated simply to fall???

Further, his team and advisers will make the call on the combine, do not know enough to speculate but sounds like a business decision or he is taking more time to work on his speed and explosiveness, hard to say!

This is Jack in Jan and early Feb and he said his knee has not been problematic and will check out, we shall see soon regardless:

I reject your "lack of understanding" language or "young" and "naive" comments because now, out of frustration, you are stooping to Ad Hominem Abusive logical fallacies, this is not generally like you and is unacceptable to be honest!

Did you not call other posters out on doing the same?

We have really exhausted the subject, nothing left to dialogue about to be honest!

 

[texbumthelife]

Your words:

"For me, I think Myles Jack's issues are going to come from a combination of lack of experience and size, not just one or the other."

"I will say, whether you agree with it or not, smaller players have a harder time getting off blocks."

The above clearly demonstrates your thoughts on the matter, saying size may not be the only issue but certainly one of them and using "smaller" language is crystal clear on the matter!

Actually, I specifically said size and experience. I also explained the smaller people getting off blocks comment and why it might not be an issue for Jack (arm length). You're ignoring whole swaths or things I am saying, because you have literally no way to dispute them because they are indeed, FACTS.

Either you are in great denial or you are clearly contradicting yourself while talking out of both sides of your mouth!!

Or your reading comprehension is worse than your understanding of this time of year and your grammar.

The combine will answer the question of weight officially speaking but what we know right now, from Jack himself, is that he is currently in the 245 range.

We go off of the evidence we currently have unless proven otherwise, not assume the negative just to underwrite an argument on size.

You go off of whatever you want. I am speaking from experience.

Why be dishonest about this fact if he will only be proven a liar in two weeks? This makes little to no sense whatsoever because his stock would be inflated simply to fall???

It happens every year. Jack's name being in the news for months because he is underweight is going to be far more damaging than testing a little light at the combine.

Further, his team and advisers will make the call on the combine, do not know enough to speculate but sounds like a business decision or he is taking more time to work on his speed and explosiveness, hard to say!

Make what call? Im not sure how this is pertinent to the argument?

This is Jack in Jan and early Feb and he said he knee has not been problematic and will check out, we shall see soon regardless:

I reject your "lack of understanding" language or "young" and "naive" comments because now, out of frustration, you are stooping to Ad Hominem Abusive logical fallacies, this is not generally like you and is unacceptable to be honest!

Being naive or young are not bad things, but they would explain why you refuse to admit the fact that every single year players embellish and lie about their weight, height etc. Either you're just choosing to ignore it and pretend it doesn't happen because it hurts your argument, or you don't know about it (hence young and naive). It is directly related to the argument, and not an attack on you at all. In fact, it even could serve as a defense for you considering your obviously tunnel vision on Jack.


As far as his "knee checking out", we have a whole other thread already dedicated to that. If he is indeed in that good of condition to be doing that much agility and strength work, than clearly he isn't competitive enough to show what he has against other guys at the combine.

 

[Rogerthat12]

Actually, I specifically said size and experience. I also explained the smaller people getting off blocks comment and why it might not be an issue for Jack (arm length). You're ignoring whole swaths or things I am saying, because you have literally no way to dispute them because they are indeed, FACTS.

Saying size alone is a contradiction because you claimed size was not an issue!

Or your reading comprehension is worse than your understanding of this time of year and your grammar.

Argumentum Ad Hominem Abusive Logical Fallacy, attacking the man!

You go off of whatever you want. I am speaking from experience.

Argumentum Ad Verecundiam Logical Fallacy, Appeal to authority and personal experience!

It happens every year. Jack's name being in the news for months because he is underweight is going to be far more damaging than testing a little light at the combine.

Assumption without grounding in actual fact.

Make what call? Im not sure how this is pertinent to the argument?

Calling out others to have an adult discussion by not name calling then name calling yourself!

Being naive or young are not bad things, but they would explain why you refuse to admit the fact that every single year players embellish and lie about their weight, height etc. Either you're just choosing to ignore it and pretend it doesn't happen because it hurts your argument, or you don't know about it (hence young and naive). It is directly related to the argument, and not an attack on you at all. In fact, it even could serve as a defense for you considering your obviously tunnel vision on Jack.

Argumentum Ad Hominem Abusive: attacking the man logical fallacy.

Arguing from assumption and Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam logical fallacy.

It will not matter because in two weeks, if he is lying, he would not have helped his stock, so the lie was meaningless.

As far as his "knee checking out", we have a whole other thread already dedicated to that. If he is indeed in that good of condition to be doing that much agility and strength work, than clearly he isn't competitive enough to show what he has against other guys at the combine.

Ad Ignorantiam logical fallacy.

Not necessarily, may need more time to work on his speed and explosiveness. We simply do not know at this point, it is all speculation.

Post #18 says everything about your perspective, you quoted Alexander with the following:


Alexander said: ↑
I have all but begged to be convinced by someone that he is worth the choice for us.

My big deal is I don't think he can play the middle role. If the idea was to have him play chase LBer from Lee's spot, well okay then.

But nobody will or even can put it up there that he can play middle linebacker as a professional.

That's my big deal.

You Replied: Exactly what I have said over and over.

 

[Rogerthat12]

What he weighs is pretty much irrelevant to me.

10-15 pounds are next to nothing.

It all depends on what Dallas envisions him doing.

He is not going to be some Swiss Army Knife. He's just not.

Marinelli is a rigid coach who sticks to prototypes.

Then it comes down to two things.

Will Jack play WILL and Lee get moved? Okay then. I could learn to appreciate that.

Will Jack play MLB? Complete silliness. Never done it before.

Will Jack play SAM? Probably would be outstanding but who on earth spends a top five pick on that role?

I don't see why apparently a bunch of you cannot understand what a quandary he presents.

It is not about picking this incredible beast.

It is what is done with said beast once you have him.

You know Jack has played mlb for the Bruins at times including in the OP's video in this very thread right?

I get the fits better at will but you said he has "never done it before" which means you have not looked at enough tape.

You claim no one can put up there that he can play the middle but Dane Brugler, Josh Norris and others all think he can play the middle if a team wanted him to accordingly.

No one will change your mind because it is already made up which is fine but many others disagree.

His ideal fit may very well be the will but he has and can play the Mike, if Hitchens can play the Mike, Jack should have no worries.

 

[tyke1doe]

I've based what I've said on actual game tape. I've watched him get turned and swallowed by linemen and show an inability to disengage. I think he has instincts as a football player, but I don't see great instincts as a linebacker. He takes back angles quite frequently, but is able to recover due to his speed and athleticism. He misreads blockers quite a bit too. I always watch the tape myself before I form opinions, which is why I often don't comment on more obscure players--because I haven't seen anything on them.

We can agree to disagree in our evaluations, but this arrogant stance of "if you're opinion isn't the same as mine than you clearly haven't actually looked at footage" is base and far more delusional even than someone forming opinions without studying.

We can debate, but I won't hang around and be told what I have or haven't done. I am not a child. I wont debate with one.

This statement should be clipped and shared for most football debates.
It's really a lazy man's way of saying, "I am right and if you don't agree with me you know nothing about football."
IMO, it's really juvenile. "If you don't agree with me, I'm taking my ball and going home."

 

[jterrell]

You are incorrect, Jack and his team know his current weight, certainly weight can fluctuate within 5 pounds for most of us but they have indicated he is currently at 245, that is why the scouts and everyone are saying this accordingly.

You may be right on best fit with the will regardless and that he needs grooming to be sure.

You could argue much less grooming would be needed at the will, just go get them now!

This is 10000% untrue in every way.

Anyone who has ever played college football could explain this to you...
Football players weigh in 1 time per season. Some guys weigh in in towels and others in football pants with pads.

You just do not understand the process.

The media guide guys are NEVER at the weigh ins and heights/weights often change before it hits the official roster.
I know, both of mine did.

 

[texbumthelife]

This is 10000% untrue in every way.

Anyone who has ever played college football could explain this to you...
Football players weigh in 1 time per season. Some guys weigh in in towels and others in football pants with pads.

You just do not understand the process.

The media guide guys are NEVER at the weigh ins and heights/weights often change before it hits the official roster.
I know, both of mine did.

Preach!

 

[Direwolf63]

Unless he's another Urlacher, he's not worth a #4 pick.

And he's not another Urlacher.

 

[Rogerthat12]

This is 10000% untrue in every way.

Anyone who has ever played college football could explain this to you...
Football players weigh in 1 time per season. Some guys weigh in in towels and others in football pants with pads.

You just do not understand the process.

The media guide guys are NEVER at the weigh ins and heights/weights often change before it hits the official roster.
I know, both of mine did.

I have played college football, so your comment is really without merit and more base level jargon and provides no one with an advantage at guessing a players weight at any given time.

I completely understand the process, however, you apparently do not understand how a players personal team trains a player and how they measure everything prior to the combine and draft.

This includes weight training, cardio, all the measurables and certainly the player being measured understands what the scale reads, this is base level common sense and has little to do with a weigh in at college alone.

I also have weight trained professionally most of my life and understand the process of gaining muscle and how to add lean mass.

People can fluctuate in weight within 5 pounds at any given time due to water retention ect.. that will not change a 10 pound range unless an illness or serious diet is instituted.

I completely understand the process but you are the first one going by the most subjective and non reliable indicator for a players weight, your opinion without any verification.

I am not going by the college weight alone, Jack has indicated he is currently in the 245 range and scouts have also verified this information and reported accordingly.

Further, Jack has also indicated when he first started playing, he was playing in the 220-230 range and towards the latter part played between 240-250 range.

I certainly trust Jack, who will be weighed in a week regardless over some random guy on the internet that has already proclaimed the player 230 and undersized based on ignorance of the player himself, the scouts and every other reported outlet.

The combine will clear up the matter but you simply assumed he was still at his early college weight and thus argued he was undersized by a completely useless criteria.

It is just another baseless attempt to somehow argue that Jack is undersized but the fact is Jack is the same size as most of the top NFL lb's regardless of what you say or think, it is simply a fact.

You have absolutely no reliable basis to ground your assertion on his weight whatsoever other than your personal opinion!

Appealing to simply his college weight alone will not suffice as the player himself, scouts and his personal team have indicated otherwise and have affirmed his 245 range.

 

[jterrell]

I have played college football, so your comment is really without merit and more base level jargon and provides no one with an advantage at guessing a players weight at any given time.

I completely understand the process, however, you apparently do not understand how a players personal team trains a player and how they measure everything prior to the combine and draft.

This includes weight training, cardio, all the measurables and certainly the player being measured understands what the scale reads, this is base level common sense and has little to do with a weigh in at college alone.

I also have weight trained professionally most of my life and understand the process of gaining muscle and how to add lean mass.

People can fluctuate in weight within 5 pounds at any given time due to water retention ect.. that will not change a 10 pound range unless an illness or serious diet is instituted.

I completely understand the process but you are the first one going by the most subjective and non reliable indicator for a players weight, your opinion without any verification.

I am not going by the college weight alone, Jack has indicated he is currently in the 245 range and scouts have also verified this information and reported accordingly.

Further, Jack has also indicated when he first started playing, he was playing in the 220-230 range and towards the latter part played between 240-250 range.

I certainly trust Jack, who will be weighed in a week regardless over some random guy on the internet that has already proclaimed the player 230 and undersized based on ignorance of the player himself, the scouts and every other reported outlet.

The combine will clear up the matter but you simply assumed he was still at his early college weight and thus argued he was undersized by a completely useless criteria.

It is just another baseless attempt to somehow argue that Jack is undersized but the fact is Jack is the same size as most of the top NFL lb's regardless of what you say or think, it is simply a fact.

You have absolutely no reliable basis to ground your assertion on his weight whatsoever other than your personal opinion!

Appealing to simply his college weight alone will not suffice as the player himself, scouts and his personal team have indicated otherwise and have affirmed his 245 range.

ROFL.
You really bothered typing all that complete drivel?
1. Where did you play college football?
2. Are you truly suggesting they kept up accurate weight measurements for players?

 

[jterrell]

btw, if anyone wants to tell me Jack looks 245 pounds in those videos please do so.
then I know who to put on ignore as completely without hope of objectivity.
the guy looks like a safety. he is lean and smooth and athletic.
no one would pass him on the street and say omg there is a middle backer.

does that mean he can't grow into a great middle backer? NO.
does that mean he is VERY unlikely to tilt the scales at 245? YES.

 

[Rogerthat12]

ROFL.
You really bothered typing all that complete drivel?
1. Where did you play college football?
2. Are you truly suggesting they kept up accurate weight measurements for players?

Drivel is relative to the interpretation of the poster.

I played at Wake Forest DT then went to Duke for graduate school and Phd program.

No I am not suggesting college teams keep constant records during the season.

Jack is training with Fischer Institute in Phoenix, with Brett Fischer and his team preparing for the combine, pro day, individual visits and draft.

I am suggesting that the personal training team that Jack is training with right now, measures everything, including his weight and speed as he prepares for the draft and the combine.

They have a specific strategy for Jack, where they want him to come in weight wise without losing his speed and explosiveness.

This is not executed without intention and planning is implemented down to the fine details.

They actually know his current weight, it is simply a fact.

All of this is ultimately unnecessary as they will weigh Jack at the combine.

 

[Rogerthat12]

btw, if anyone wants to tell me Jack looks 245 pounds in those videos please do so.
then I know who to put on ignore as completely without hope of objectivity.
the guy looks like a safety. he is lean and smooth and athletic.
no one would pass him on the street and say omg there is a middle backer.

does that mean he can't grow into a great middle backer? NO.
does that mean he is VERY unlikely to tilt the scales at 245? YES.

Subjective and thus unverifiable.

 

[jterrell]

Drivel is relative to the interpretation of the poster.

I played at Wake Forest DT then went to Duke for graduate school and Phd program.

I played at Texas Tech. Can't say I knew anyone at WF but I did have teammates play at Kansas. Kansas State, Miami, UT, UNT and Baylor. Almost to a man they were upgraded in size on the game day programs/roster.

People are saying Jack is 245 because UCLA where he hasn't been in months as part of the football team lists him as such.
That's it.

Fischer is testing everything for sure. But he's never released one bit of that data to anyone but Jack and his agent. The agent feeds the media. There is reason they all list 245 and not something close.

Show me one scout that says Jack weighed in today at .... --doesn't exist.

Again this an area where you are thinking with something other than your brain.
The proof is in the very video and photos you posted. Dude is not 245. Probably not even remotely close in those images.
6'1" and 245 is yoked. Heck 6'1" and 260 probably played DT not long ago right??