The nerve is officially firing***merged***

[iceberg]

I'm as guilty as the next guy, guiltier, actually, of participating when threads become about posters and not topics sometimes. But in this case, can we all just agree to move on? It appears the posters who believed evidence suggested consistent progress for Smith were right. For sure, they took a lot of heat for those suggestions. For sure, a lot of the guesswork was surmised and the debates weren't always friendly.

The end result appears to be at least marginally good news for the Cowboys and some vindication for that side of the debate. Whatever cache there is in that can be spent the next time the parties inevitably lock horns. But it'd be great if it didn't dominate another Jaylon thread.

That's my poster-opinion, btw and not a moderator opinion. Anybody with me?

i don't get it.

i really don't.

not a single person in here has any info other than the media which we know changes like the wind. how can people take a side, dig in tooth and nail, on an issue of which they honestly are not educated on either side?

we all knew it would take awhile if it ever even did heal properly. but people from day 1 were YES IT WILL HEAL and NO IT WON'T.

then the arguments came to town over it.

over something that not a single person in here is qualified to truly understand and know yet people get into knock down drag out fights over how they *feel* an issue will eventually wind up then have zero patience at all to see what happens, in time. i want it all i want it now so to speak.

so basically take a guess and then get adamant about being right OR wrong.

i don't get it.

 

[Idgit]

i don't get it.

i really don't.

not a single person in here has any info other than the media which we know changes like the wind. how can people take a side, dig in tooth and nail, on an issue of which they honestly are not educated on either side?

we all knew it would take awhile if it ever even did heal properly. but people from day 1 were YES IT WILL HEAL and NO IT WON'T.

then the arguments came to town over it.

over something that not a single person in here is qualified to truly understand and know yet people get into knock down drag out fights over how they *feel* an issue will eventually wind up then have zero patience at all to see what happens, in time. i want it all i want it now so to speak.

so basically take a guess and then get adamant about being right OR wrong.

i don't get it.

It had a bit of an angels-fighting-over-the-head-of-a-pin vibe, yeah.

 

[Vintage]

i don't get it.

i really don't.

not a single person in here has any info other than the media which we know changes like the wind. how can people take a side, dig in tooth and nail, on an issue of which they honestly are not educated on either side?

we all knew it would take awhile if it ever even did heal properly. but people from day 1 were YES IT WILL HEAL and NO IT WON'T.

then the arguments came to town over it.

over something that not a single person in here is qualified to truly understand and know yet people get into knock down drag out fights over how they *feel* an issue will eventually wind up then have zero patience at all to see what happens, in time. i want it all i want it now so to speak.

so basically take a guess and then get adamant about being right OR wrong.

i don't get it.

Not true. We have quasi doctors on both sides of the issue. Plenty of experts. Just ask them.

 

[big dog cowboy]

In Cal Poly's defense, he isn't voluntarily silent on the topic here.

The hell he isn't.

 

[Idgit]

Fuzzy was not the only one who got attacked.
The worst case IMO were the attacks against doc50 who is clearly medical.
There were at least 2 posters attacking him saying they questioned if he is really a doctor.
This was many months ago but it was really repulsive.
But I put them on ignore so I really dont even remember who.

I agree on all counts. I didn't have a dog in this particular fight, but disliked the way those posters were treated in those threads. There was give and take from both sides, for sure, but a lot of the venom was unnecessary.

But that stuff leads to benchings and benchings accumulate, so it effectively took care of itself in the end. What we want is a community where the gloves can come off at times as long as guidelines are adhered to. Sometimes it leads to some contentious threads, but that's ok. People want to defend their strong opinions.

 

[danielofthesaints]

This is really the first news that I view as really positive in relation to Smith's recovery.

I doubt anyone noticed but I've barely even been in any of the Jaylon Smith threads at all. If I even commented, it was likely just goofing around and not actually addressing the situation. I stayed away because, well... nobody really knew what was going to happen. I saw no reason for pessimism or optimism particularly (although I'm an optimist by nature). So, I saw no reason to debate one way or another on the subject.

I pretty much just crossed my fingers and hoped for it to work out. Lord knows the guy deserves to have a good NFL career. Terrific person. Terrific attitude. Terrific work ethic in trying to come back.

This news though, is real news. Something we can sink our teeth into and it is very, very good news indeed.

If he's moving his toes, that tells me that the nerve regeneration has already moved through the foot and is nearing the end of its journey (at the toes). My understanding is that the nerve heals, regenerates, fires or whatever you want to call it, from the knee first and then slowly down through the ankle and foot, and then finally down to the toes.

Again, my understanding is that the real danger of spending a second round pick on him was that the nerve might never regenerate, leaving him permanently with drop foot. Since the nerve is obviously healing and he is regaining movement and feeling in the afflicted area, it seems to be confirmation that the worst fears aren't true and that it's only a matter of time before he's pretty much back to normal.

What is probably most encouraging to me is the team confirming that the healing (or noticeable healing) has significantly sped up in recent weeks. Having a marked improvement over the last three weeks bodes very well for his ability to play without a brace this season, in my non-professional opinion.

So, while there are still hurdles to clear, the giant one that worried people the most, seems to have been successfully navigated. He still hasn't played football in over a year but he hasn't been away from the team... he's been in every meeting and has been picking the brain of Sean Lee, the coaches, etc. and is sure to have a firm grasp of the scheme and what will be required of him. And while he hasn't played, he has been rehabbing and working out like a mad man. He is in shape and ready to get back in football shape.

Overall, this is huge for him and for the Dallas defense.

Nice post, Asthma. Just a minor correction to this quote, "If he's moving his toes, that tells me that the nerve regeneration has already moved through the foot and is nearing the end of its journey (at the toes)."

The nerve regeneration for Jaylon doesn't actually end it's journey in the toes. It's furthest journey would be at the muscles which have their tendons attaching to the bones of the toes. The most distal of those would be muscles in the foot, but not toes. I wrote a longer explanation about it, but figured this would suffice. If you care to understand the neuroanatomy of this better, let me know and I'll post it.

 

[waldoputty]

i don't get it.

i really don't.

not a single person in here has any info other than the media which we know changes like the wind. how can people take a side, dig in tooth and nail, on an issue of which they honestly are not educated on either side?

we all knew it would take awhile if it ever even did heal properly. but people from day 1 were YES IT WILL HEAL and NO IT WON'T.

then the arguments came to town over it.

over something that not a single person in here is qualified to truly understand and know yet people get into knock down drag out fights over how they *feel* an issue will eventually wind up then have zero patience at all to see what happens, in time. i want it all i want it now so to speak.

so basically take a guess and then get adamant about being right OR wrong.

i don't get it.

that is simply not true.
there was at least 2 MDs involved in the discussion, and may be more than 2.
there was one medical student with access to a lot of medical literature.
i got opinions on PhD researchers who worked in nerve regeneration.
in comparison, most of the media people were contradictory.

 

[AsthmaField]

Nice post, Asthma. Just a minor correction to this quote, "If he's moving his toes, that tells me that the nerve regeneration has already moved through the foot and is nearing the end of its journey (at the toes)."

The nerve regeneration for Jaylon doesn't actually end it's journey in the toes. It's furthest journey would be at the muscles which have their tendons attaching to the bones of the toes. The most distal of those would be muscles in the foot, but not toes. I wrote a longer explanation about it, but figured this would suffice. If you care to understand the neuroanatomy of this better, let me know and I'll post it.

I appreciate the correction. And no explanation necessary. It makes perfect sense.

 

[iceberg]

that is simply not true.
there was at least 2 MDs involved in the discussion, and may be more than 2.
there was one medical student with access to a lot of medical literature.
i got opinions on PhD researchers who worked in nerve regeneration.
in comparison, most of the media people were contradictory.

great.

which one had access to his medical records?

we can go by opinions in the injury sure. but how is this different than what i said - no one knows FOR SURE what is going on? at least in here.

far as i know his doc never stopped by to give a personal update and release private medical info. the entire argument was a "bet" more or less on if it would heal, based on speculation and guess we did by becoming a GOOGLE-PHD.

 

[JoeKing]

Sean Lee has had 1 healthy year, how can you be so sure that wasn't just a lucky year...he's on the plus side of 30...Until I see Smith in the regular season, I'm not counting on him. I still view it as wasted, we had needs on defense that needed to addressed immediately...this team waste to many second round picks.

Even if you aren't ready to count on Lee or Smith, we have Wilbur, Nzeocha and Hitchens. We don't need more bodies at the LB position. Dismissing the time and effort that that Lee and Smith put into rehab and getting back on the field is so disrespectful and fool hardy. These are the RKGs that coach Garrett talks about. Dedicated and loyal to the Cowboy way.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Oh yeah, I mocked him. But not because of what his opinion was.

My opinion once Jaylon was drafted was that it was high risk/high reward. I was in favor of it because he had potential to be a true difference maker if he could come back. I had no idea if he would come back or not... and never got into the debates about that specific issue. I am not a doctor nor a quasi - doctor like some here.

What I took issue with is how Fuzzy ridiculed and was condescending to anyone who didn't just shut up and believe his grainy photos and innerwebs research.

I have no idea if Fuzzy believed Jaylon was worth the risk drafting (but, given the amount of time he put into the issue; if I had to guess, I would say yes). And, if that is true, then our opinion is actually quite similar. He seems adamant about Jaylon being able to be play. I was less certain. But I was far less concerned with actually getting into the debates about it.

So.... no.... not going to give him any credit. Yes, I will probably still mock him whenever he is an ***, because, well, the ones who were adamant that Jaylon wasn't going to play have gone silent. And even though that wasn't my opinion, Fuzzy was pompous throughout his arguments with them.

Pompous? I suggest some introspection. Someone has a thing for me apparently because of said pomposity.

This shouldn't be hard.

The point here is that I was right to think that the videos showed him lifting his foot. The recent interviews and articles have been talking about his progress over the past several months. The stills were from March, last month, recall?

Yet here you are using the exact same arguments to discredit the stills that were used back then. Then you are trying to tell anyone that will listen your disingenuous argument that you have no horse in this race.

You of course are arguing against evidence presented to show that Jaylon's recovery has gone well despite your disavowal.

Nevermind that I pointed out you don't need high definition in those blown up pics to see foot orientations or if there is a strap on his calf denoting his latest AFO. You won't argue honestly and directly to repeat the passive aggressive argument once more. I get that at least. You get the tone you get because of it.

I await your post telling me you don't care.

 

[iceberg]

so he uses your tactics, fuzzbucket?

 

[waldoputty]

great.

which one had access to his medical records?

we can go by opinions in the injury sure. but how is this different than what i said - no one knows FOR SURE what is going on? at least in here.

far as i know his doc never stopped by to give a personal update and release private medical info. the entire argument was a "bet" more or less on if it would heal, based on speculation and guess we did by becoming a GOOGLE-PHD.

nobody said for sure.

in the last 6 months, @Doc50 posted multiple explanations.
guess what, what has happened matched pretty much what he said.
these are based on years of education and experience, not something you get from google.

you can get some basic info from google, but these are real MDs and PhDs.
When it comes to medical matters, MDs and PhDs simply know more.
Most people accept that when they go see a doctor.

@danielofthesaints just gave asthma a medical explanation.
he is a medical student if I recall correctly.
he does not need Jaylon's medical records to give that opinion either as it is simply anatomy.

 

[Vintage]

Pompous? I suggest some introspection. Someone has a thing for me apparently because of said pomposity.

This shouldn't be hard.

The point here is that I was right to think that the videos showed him lifting his foot. The recent interviews and articles have been talking about his progress over the past several months. The stills were from March, last month, recall?

Yet here you are using the exact same arguments to discredit the stills that were used back then. Then you are trying to tell anyone that will listen your disingenuous argument that you have no horse in this race.

You of course are arguing against evidence presented to show that Jaylon's recovery has gone well despite your disavowal.

Nevermind that I pointed out you don't need high definition in those blown up pics to see foot orientations or if there is a strap on his calf denoting his latest AFO. You won't argue honestly and directly to repeat the passive aggressive argument once more. I get that at least. You get the tone you get because of it.

I await your post telling me you don't care.

I refer to it as the grainy photo, because, well... it was grainy.

As far as you and the other side going back and forth over whether or not the nerve was or is firing... that is a horse I don't have a race in. Maybe it slipped past you, but nowhere did I ever say his nerve was firing or wasn't firing. In fact, somewhere along the line, I believe my only comment on it was that I didn't know.... and I doubt the quasi doctors can state to any sort of medical certainty one way or another by looking at videos, grainy photos, and the grassy knoll.


My point of not caring is just that.... I did not care one way or another about the actual argument itself (was it firing, was it not)... but more about the tactics you utilized.

Then, of course, crying victim.

Dig through my posts. I'll wait.

 

[Vintage]

so he uses your tactics, fuzzbucket?

That was the intent.

But, of course, you would see that.

 

[CowboyStar88]

so he uses your tactics, fuzzbucket?

Icey is in full swing I see today

 

[DCBoysfan]

i don't get it.

i really don't.

not a single person in here has any info other than the media which we know changes like the wind. how can people take a side, dig in tooth and nail, on an issue of which they honestly are not educated on either side?

we all knew it would take awhile if it ever even did heal properly. but people from day 1 were YES IT WILL HEAL and NO IT WON'T.

then the arguments came to town over it.

over something that not a single person in here is qualified to truly understand and know yet people get into knock down drag out fights over how they *feel* an issue will eventually wind up then have zero patience at all to see what happens, in time. i want it all i want it now so to speak.

so basically take a guess and then get adamant about being right OR wrong.

i don't get it.

Well said, sir.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

i don't get it.

i really don't.

not a single person in here has any info other than the media which we know changes like the wind. how can people take a side, dig in tooth and nail, on an issue of which they honestly are not educated on either side?

we all knew it would take awhile if it ever even did heal properly. but people from day 1 were YES IT WILL HEAL and NO IT WON'T.

then the arguments came to town over it.

over something that not a single person in here is qualified to truly understand and know yet people get into knock down drag out fights over how they *feel* an issue will eventually wind up then have zero patience at all to see what happens, in time. i want it all i want it now so to speak.

so basically take a guess and then get adamant about being right OR wrong.

i don't get it.

Who qualified you to determine who is qualified to "truly understand?"

Thanks for the "we have no way of knowing" lecture preceding that take as if it doesn't contradict the aforementioned notion.

We can know several things. I occasionally make a state of Jaylon post detailing what we can know and verify for ourselves.

1) In January after the surgery his doctor said that the nerve sheath was intact which gave him confidence in his recovery.
2) A nerve injury where there is a complete palsy but the nerve exterior is intact is called a type 2 nerve injury or axonotmesis.
3) There is a bevy of actuarial data on axonotmesis and the majority have a complete recovery and the vast majority have at least a partial recovery. The literature I read indicated that the partial recovery was most commonly due to scar tissue formation on the interior of the nerve.
4) Modern imaging techniques allow one to monitor the formation or lack thereof of scar tissue on the interior of the nerve.
5) After a dormant period of around 30 days the nerve begins to regrow at a rate of 1 inch per month. The length of nerve from injury to foot was about 7 inches.
6) Following the nerve regrowth, the muscle has to re-innervate in a process that can be instantaneous or take up to a year.
7) In TC of last year, Jaylon was wearing a dynamic AFO that was springloaded AFO that picked his foot up when he swung his foot forward.
8) At some point during the season, he started wearing a less rigid, "semi-rigid," AFO without springs that used the tensile strength of the material to keep his foot up.
9) In December of last year the first stills of Jaylon not wearing any AFO while out and about with friends and family surfaced. The first one was of him sitting down with his nieces but several since have surfaced where he is standing.
10) No media from this year has been presented showing him wearing an AFO. Instead he goes without like for example the video showing him jumping hurdles or with a heavy tape job.
11) During this period of January-March there were conflicting reports from the media. Mike Fisher of the blogosphere and Ian Rappoport of the NFL reported no progress. Albert Breer of SI and Brandon George of DMN reported that he could move his foot.
12) In late March Stephen Jones stated that the nerve was firing. In recent days Jerry Jones stated he can move his toes.
13) Ian Rappoport and Mike Fisher have revised their positions.

Those are all facts that anyone can look up see for themselves to be true. This notion that we cannot know anything is just willful ignorance.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

so he uses your tactics, fuzzbucket?

Direct in your face confrontation is my tactic, icetray. He comes nowhere near that. Nice baseless assertion though. See some things never change.

 

[JoeKing]

Pompous? I suggest some introspection. Someone has a thing for me apparently because of said pomposity.

This shouldn't be hard.

The point here is that I was right to think that the videos showed him lifting his foot. The recent interviews and articles have been talking about his progress over the past several months. The stills were from March, last month, recall?

Yet here you are using the exact same arguments to discredit the stills that were used back then. Then you are trying to tell anyone that will listen your disingenuous argument that you have no horse in this race.

You of course are arguing against evidence presented to show that Jaylon's recovery has gone well despite your disavowal.

Nevermind that I pointed out you don't need high definition in those blown up pics to see foot orientations or if there is a strap on his calf denoting his latest AFO. You won't argue honestly and directly to repeat the passive aggressive argument once more. I get that at least. You get the tone you get because of it.

I await your post telling me you don't care.

Normally I would be the last person to defend you Fuzz but on this topic you have been correct all along and even if no one else is man enough to admit this, I will be. I was wrong and have learned to give medical science more credit than I previously did. I look forward to our civilized discussions in the future Fuzz. Have a good day.