The Phantom Salary Cap Menace

[waldoputty]

Denver did it and got the SB with it, but that is the only one I can think of.

Denver's QB position is their primary problem. Lets hope we do not have that problem...

 

[waldoputty]

thats a good point, the nfl doesnt condone that, but not a bad idea.

Not tank on purpose, but tank by design (if draft picks do not work out)
New England may have won the last 5 superbowls if they leverage their salary cap more.
With Brady's short time fuse, it does not seem rational.
Other than the satisfaction of being everyone else with one hand tied behind their back.
When you are that good, you find ways to challenge yourself...

 

[waldoputty]

I'm seeing a need for instant gratification here.

"I want an Oompa Loompa now!"

Just get me a name, any name. And pay money, big money. Not even the thought put into deciding which name might actually be worth the investment.

Spend, spend, spend, kick the can down the road as far as you can, and screw yourself for the future. Some plan.

"Don't care how, I want it now!"

no, i am just recognizing there is a short time fuze to dez and zeke's primes.

no one is suggesting spending $ for the hell of it.
if there are no players to be had, then that is life.

 

[Stash]

no, i am just recognizing there is a short time fuze to dez and zeke's primes.

A good organization making sound decisions can remain competitive. Look no further than the Super Bowl champions.

no one is suggesting spending $ for the hell of it.

It sure reads that way when someone types out "free agent DE and $15 million a year". Or "3 top FA's".

if there are no players to be had, then that is life.

There's far more teams with money than there are quality players looking for that money. A player's market and the perfect recipe for teams to overpay and regret it.

Even the 'names' some people are dropping aren't double-digit sack guys, and yet some want to throw $15 million a year at them? Crazy.

And people want to point to Suh's deal as if it's some missed opportunity? In case nobody noticed, the Dolphins are cutting players left and right. In large part because of that Suh deal, a deal that they're not getting the return on investment they had hoped for.

 

[waldoputty]

A good organization making sound decisions can remain competitive. Look no further than the Super Bowl champions.

It sure reads that way when someone types out "free agent DE and $15 million a year". Or "3 top FA's".

There's far more teams with money than there are quality players looking for that money. A player's market and the perfect recipe for teams to overpay and regret it.

Even the 'names' some people are dropping aren't double-digit sack guys, and yet some want to throw $15 million a year at them? Crazy.

And people want to point to Suh's deal as if it's some missed opportunity? In case nobody noticed, the Dolphins are cutting players left and right. In large part because of that Suh deal, a deal that they're not getting the return on investment they had hoped for.

Whether you like it or not, Zeke has used up 20% of a typical RB's prime.
Dez even has less time left.
There should be only 1 goal - superbowls.
Everyone else are losers.
Getting into the playoffs every year are for secondary teams or bottom feeders like Cleveland.

$15M/yr for top 3 FA has been sort of the going rate for the new reality.
True top players are probably not available and would be going for more than that.
Double digit sacks are less important than demanding a double team.
We do not have anyone on the DL that demands consistently a double team.
Dolphins have many reasons to be in trouble, and they do not have the talent to do what I am suggesting.

That is the price for everyone having cap space.
Players you want would choose us because we are a contender that is spending.
Those who would go to lesser teams - you do not want any way.
Not many will choose Cleveland's millions in the first place.

Just because the Patriots do not do it does not mean something is wrong.
The Patriots would have won the last 5 superbowls if they leveraged the cap more.
With Brady's age, what they are doing is not close to optimal and wasting their chance to make history.
I am thankful for that.
All I care about is the superbowl count.
Unfortunately due to Atlanta's EPIC choke, they won the last one.

 

[Stash]

Whether you like it or not, Zeke has used up 20% of a typical RB's prime.
Dez even has less time left.
There should be only 1 goal - superbowls.
Everyone else are losers.
Getting into the playoffs every year are for secondary teams or bottom feeders like Cleveland.

So explain then how New England manages to not only win them, but be in the hunt virtually every single year? Where are their "$15 million free agents" they simply threw money at?

$15M/yr for top 3 FA has been sort of the going rate.

"Sort of the going rate"? Again, you try to claim you're not "spending money for the he'll of it", but time after time throw around $15 million like it's change sitting in the sofa cushions.

True top players are probably not available and would be going for more than that.
Double digit sacks are less important than demanding a double team.
We do not have anyone on the DL that demands consistently a double team.
Dolphins have many reasons to be in trouble, and they do not have the talent to do what I am suggesting.

The only guys demanding a double team would be the guys getting double-digit sacks if they weren't. But you don't pay double-digit millions (and then some!) for single digit sacks and guys who aren't anything special.

That is the price for everyone having cap space.
Players you want would choose us because we are a contender that is spending.
Not many will choose Cleveland's millions.

Jamie Collins already did, and plenty of fans were clamoring for him. For NFL players, this is their job, their livelihood. Their one big shot at huge money they'll never see again.

If Cleveland chooses to start spending big money, players will gladly take it. And then they'll give the usual speech of wanting to "turn things around". Their bank accounts, first and foremost.

 

[waldoputty]

So explain then how New England manages to not only win them, but be in the hunt virtually every single year? Where are their "$15 million free agents" they simply threw money at?

"Sort of the going rate"? Again, you try to claim you're not "spending money for the he'll of it", but time after time throw around $15 million like it's change sitting in the sofa cushions.

The only guys demanding a double team would be the guys getting double-digit sacks if they weren't. But you don't pay double-digit millions (and then some!) for single digit sacks and guys who aren't anything special.

Jamie Collins already did, and plenty of fans were clamoring for him. For NFL players, this is their job, their livelihood. Their one big shot at huge money they'll never see again.

If Cleveland chooses to start spending big money, players will gladly take it. And then they'll give the usual speech of wanting to "turn things around". Their bank accounts, first and foremost.

1. Tom Brady - an example of a player who will take less money than what he is worth. I actually have some hope that Dak may be like that. They could be winning almost every year for the last 5 years if they did what I suggested. I for one am glad they want to compete with 1 hand tied behind their back.
2. $15M/yr is the rate for top players available in FA. But if JPP/Melvin Ingram/Poe/Short/Bouye/Johnson/Berry/~Perry are franchised, then there is no one to throw the money to. My suggestion is event driven.
3. Collins is then not the type you want. He probably would not play hard after getting paid - like a certain DT I recalled that screwed us over.
4. Willing to spent is a necessity, if not, you are not even in the game.

 

[Stash]

1. Tom Brady - an example of a player who will take less money than what he is worth. I actually have some hope that Dak may be like that. They could be winning almost every year for the last 5 years if they did what I suggested. I for one am glad they want to compete with 1 hand tied behind their back.

Sure looks better in practice and fact than anything you're proposing here.

2. $15M/yr is the rate for top players available in FA. But if JPP/Melvin Ingram/Poe/Short/Bouye/Johnson/Berry/~Perry are franchised, then there is no one to throw the money to. My suggestion is event driven.

See? You don't even care who the money goes to , just as long as money is spent. It can go in any direction, as long as it goes. That's just reckless.

3. Collins is then not the type you want. He probably would not play hard after getting paid - like a certain DT I recalled that screwed us over.

And these names you want to throw money at simply because you recognize them won't do the exact same thing? Please. Now it's getting beyond ridiculous.

4. Willing to spent is a necessity, if not, you are not even in the game.

The Super Bowl Champions say differently. I'll listen to them over a guy chasing names because he recognizes them.

 

[waldoputty]

Sure looks better in practice and fact than anything you're proposing here.

See? You don't even care who the money goes to , just as long as money is spent. It can go in any direction, as long as it goes. That's just reckless.

And these names you want to throw money at simply because you recognize them won't do the exact same thing? Please. Now it's getting beyond ridiculous.

The Super Bowl Champions say differently. I'll listen to them over a guy chasing names because he recognizes them.

1. You can say New England is the best you can do. It should be obvious to anyone objective that Brady could have won more superbowls if they spent more last 5 years. They were playing with one hand tied behind their back. They have Brady, no one else can count on having that advantage. So that is not an argument on how to build a team WITHOUT Brady.
2. No, I actually looked at their stats and they were rated as top FA available. May be you should say why THEY are not worth the money, if you are such an expert.

Seems like you cannot refute the strategy and throwing nonspecific complaints because you know you cannot argue against the salary cap analysis...
Nor have you said anything about the Zeke/Dez's limited prime?

With Zeke/Dez's limited primes, a slower organic growth strategy would run against the ticking clock.

So you just want to complaint and not offer an alternative?
If your alternative is slow and organic growth, then look at the consequences:
1. I presume you know 1st year DL do not typically have a large effect. Since you claim I am so dumb, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not that ignorant.
2. So a slower strategy would then have 40% of a typical RB's prime. Wonderful alternative...
3. Even worse, Dez would have probably less than 3 almost-prime years left. So wasting another year would leave you with 2 remaining years of Dez' almost-almost prime. Wonderful.

So do you want to offer what your alternative is?

 

[Stash]

1. You can say New England is the best you can do. It should be obvious to anyone objective that Brady could have won more superbowls if they spent more last 5 years. They were playing with one hand tied behind their back. They have Brady, no one else can count on having that advantage. So that is not an argument on how to build a team WITHOUT Brady.

They win without Brady too. They went 11-5 in 2008 after losing Brady for the season. With Matt Cassel, a guy we couldn't even be competitive with. And they went 3-1 without him just this season.

2. No, I actually looked at their stats and they were rated as top FA available. May be you should say why THEY are not worth the money, if you are such an expert.

All you looked at was a list that said 'too free agents' and then ran with it. It's crystal clear. You've even admitted how much you don't know about the league.

Seems like you cannot refute the strategy and throwing nonspecific complaints because you know you cannot argue against the salary cap analysis...

I have realeatedly, and I've poked Titanic-sized holes in the poor case attempted here. You can cover only your own eyes. Everyone else can see.

Nor have you said anything about the Zeke/Dez's limited prime?

Because it's a non factor. Either or both have a decade of playing time. Zero factor. The part you continue to fail to realize if that you're reckless with the cap like you would be, there's no way to keep either of them when the time comes.

With Zeke/Dez's limited primes, a slower organic growth strategy would run against the ticking clock.

Because there is none.

So you just want to complaint and not offer an alternative?
If your alternative is slow and organic growth, then look at the consequences:
1. I presume you know 1st year DL do not typically have a large effect. Since you claim I am so dumb, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not that ignorant.
2. So a slower strategy would then have 40% of a typical RB's prime. Wonderful alternative...
3. Even worse, Dez would have probably less than 3 almost-prime years left. So wasting another year would leave you with 2 remaining years of Dez' almost-almost prime. Wonderful.

So do you want to offer what your alternative is?

To continue going down the road in what got you to 13-3. Smart drafting and keeping your player who are worth it. Like smart teams do.

You people advocating for reckless spending and name chasing are going to be crying a river of tears when the team does the same things they've done and said for several years now. Not overpay marginal talents, and keep the top players they've got. And that doesn't include being stupid in free agency.

 

[waldoputty]

They win without Brady too. They went 11-5 in 2008 after losing Brady for the season. With Matt Cassel, a guy we couldn't even be competitive with. And they went 3-1 without him just this season.

All you looked at was a list that said 'too free agents' and then ran with it. It's crystal clear. You've even admitted how much you don't know about the league.

I have realeatedly, and I've poked Titanic-sized holes in the poor case attempted here. You can cover only your own eyes. Everyone else can see.

Because it's a non factor. Either or both have a decade of playing time. Zero factor. The part you continue to fail to realize if that you're reckless with the cap like you would be, there's no way to keep either of them when the time comes.

Because there is none.

To continue going down the road in what got you to 13-3. Smart drafting and keeping your player who are worth it. Like smart teams do.

You people advocating for reckless spending and name chasing are going to be crying a river of tears when the team does the same things they've done and said for several years now. Not overpay marginal talents, and keep the top players they've got. And that doesn't include being stupid in free agency.

Gee, Mr. Expert, what do you know about the players other than watching some games and reading some articles.
How many of us here are involved or were involved with a team?

I dont really care about the list of players - I submitted a salary cap strategy - my point is the salary cap is not an issue - and here is a way you can GAME the system.

It sounds like you are saying none of the players that could be coming up in FA is any good at all...

You have got to be kidding. You think Dez has 10 years left?
You dont already see some drop off?

I thought you are the expert - but you think RBs have typical 10 year life in their prime???

So looks like you have no strategy to offer and trying to tell me both Dez and Zeke have 10 years of their prime left.
You have got to be kidding???

 

[Stash]

Gee, Mr. Expert, what do you know about the players other than watching some games and reading some articles.
How many of us here are involved or were involved with a team?

More than some people obviously...

I dont really care about the list of players -

Thanks for admitting what everyone already knew. It's just throwing money at someone, anyone, just get me somebody!

I submitted a salary cap strategy - my point is the salary cap is not an issue - and here is a way you can GAME the system.

You're not "gaming the system", you're panicking and kicking the can down the road. Your "strategy" isn't new, and it's not good, and it's proven repeatedly to be a failure.

It sounds like you are saying none of the players that could be coming up in FA is any good at all...

Nice try. What I am saying is that they all have warts and none of them are worth what they'll be paid. If you knew anything about them -which you've already admitted you don't - you'd know that. But you don't.

You have got to be kidding. You think Dez has 10 years left?
You dont already see some drop off?

No, I do see the dropoff. That's why I'm on record being against reworking his deal and getting further locked in to keeping him.

I thought you are the expert - but you think RBs have typical 10 year life in their prime???

They're a replaceable commodity. Chewed up and spit out. I'm not planning my entire organization's future on one running back.

So looks like you have no strategy to offer and trying to tell me both Dez and Zeke have 10 years of their prime left.
You have got to be kidding???

The only person "kidding" themselves here is you.

 

[waldoputty]

More than some people obviously...

Thanks for admitting what everyone already knew. It's just throwing money at someone, anyone, just get me somebody!

You're not "gaming the system", you're panicking and kicking the can down the road. Your "strategy" isn't new, and it's not good, and it's proven repeatedly to be a failure.

Nice try. What I am saying is that they all have warts and none of them are worth what they'll be paid. If you knew anything about them -which you've already admitted you don't - you'd know that. But you don't.

No, I do see the dropoff. That's why I'm on record being against reworking his deal and getting further locked in to keeping him.

They're a replaceable commodity. Chewed up and spit out. I'm not planning my entire organization's future on one running back.

The only person "kidding" themselves here is you.

The strategy is not new, but what is new is the unprecedented cap situation as well asa Romo's salary going away.

So are you now saying the strategy works math-wise but you just dont agree with those players.

So you want to assign motives to me.
Sounds like you have run out of argument because you probably realize the math is correct.

This is simple free market economics. Prices go with supply and demand. Sticker shock is reasonable but that is what actually helps with this strategy because other old-school GMS will also suffer from it.

If Dez and Zeke are so replaceable, then the cap may not even blow up because you now have cheaper alternatives to 2 key positions.
So if the cap does not blow up, I presume you dont have a problem with it.
It would need some checking, but couple guys on the board can easily comment on that.

So if you are going to keep insisting on Dez having 10 years of prime left, then there is not much to discuss.
I do know anyone on this board that would agree with such a statement.
To provide you with some assistance (if needed), Dez would be 38 in 10 years..

 

[Stash]

The strategy is not new, but what is new is the unprecedented cap situation as well asa Romo's salary going away.

So 'just spend it baby!'? Simply because you see some cap relief coming, you should blow it to overpay a mediocre to poor crop of free agents?

So are you now saying the strategy works math-wise but you just dont agree with those players.

I'm saying that just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Just because they can overpay mediocre players and be reckless with their cap, doesn't mean they should.

So you want to assign motives to me.
Sounds like you have run out of argument because you probably realize the math is correct.

No, the argument has never changed. Your plan is a poor one. Hope that clears up any confusion you still have.

This is simple free market economics. Prices go with supply and demand. Sticker shock is reasonable but that is what actually helps with this strategy because other old-school GMS will also suffer from it.

And the idiots will overpay for poor results and not win. Like what happens more times than not.

If Dez and Zeke are so replaceable, then the cap may not even blow up because you now have cheaper alternatives to 2 key positions.
So if the cap does not blow up, I presume you dont have a problem with it.
It would need some checking, but couple guys on the board can easily comment on that.

Yeah, go check with self-professed cap experts like bknight, he'll tell you all you need to know about careless spending, kicking the can down the road, and poor cap management. He's your kind of guy.

So if you are going to keep insisting on Dez having 10 years of prime left, then there is not much to discuss.
I do know anyone on this board that would agree with such a statement.
To provide you with some assistance (if needed), Dez would be 38 in 10 years..

Where is this coming from? Whoever claimed that? Are you now reduced to making things up?

 

[waldoputty]

So 'just spend it baby!'? Simply because you see some cap relief coming, you should blow it to overpay a mediocre to poor crop of free agents?

I'm saying that just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Just because they can overpay mediocre players and be reckless with their cap, doesn't mean they should.

No, the argument has never changed. Your plan is a poor one. Hope that clears up any confusion you still have.

And the idiots will overpay for poor results and not win. Like what happens more times than not.

Yeah, go check with self-professed cap experts like bknight, he'll tell you all you need to know about careless spending, kicking the can down the road, and poor cap management. He's your kind of guy.

Where is this coming from? Whoever claimed that? Are you now reduced to making things up?

I did not make anything up.
You posted it on post #130:
My point: With Zeke/Dez's limited primes, a slower organic growth strategy would run against the ticking clock.
Your answer: Because there is none.
It seems you are the type that attacks first and thinks second.

since you have assigned motives to me.
my evaluation of you is:
1. talks first and thinks second
2. been trying to retreat from the dez/zeke prime issue but even though you have argued yourself into a corner, you refuse to admit you were in the wrong. it is not difficult to admit one is wrong... i am wrong a lot and i freely admit it. in this case, however, you have nothing to back up your statements beyond "i know better'...
3. understands that the math is probably correct so argue with in areas that cannot be quantified.

I have not seen what qualifies you to make an evaluation better than anyone else.
i just tried to be intellectually honest and freely admit that i am not able to evaluate talent better than those writers in the magazines.

you have yet to write anything worth reading

 

[Stash]

I did not make anything up.
You posted it on post #130:
My point: With Zeke/Dez's limited primes, a slower organic growth strategy would run against the ticking clock.
Your answer: Because there is none.
It seems you are the type that attacks first and thinks second.

I said nothing about any "10 years" nonsense. So, I'll ask again, show me where I did, as you've claimed. Practice what you preach. And again, I couldn't care less about a "ticking clock" for either of them, and neither will the Cowboys. They're not making long term decision on either Bryant or Elliott. They see the true, bigger picture. It's about the team and the organization, not any one or two players.

since you have assigned motives to me.
my evaluation of you is:
1. talks first and thinks second
2. been trying to retreat from the dez/zeke prime issue but even though you have argued yourself into a corner, you refuse to admit you were in the wrong. it is not difficult to admit one is wrong... i am wrong a lot and i freely admit it. in this case, however, you have nothing to back up your statements beyond "i know better'...
3. understands that the math is probably correct so argue with in areas that cannot be quantified.

Again, I don't care about the math. And I've mentioned that numerous times. But once again, you see what you want to see, not what is. I don't care if they can be reckless with the cap, only that they shouldn't be.

And they won't.

I have not seen what qualifies you to make an evaluation better than anyone else.
i just tried to be intellectually honest and freely admit that i am not able to evaluate talent better than those writers in the magazines.

you have yet to write anything worth reading

And yet here we are?

With you desperately chasing after each and every post I make in this thread.

Methinks thou doth protest too much!

 

[waldoputty]

I said nothing about any "10 years" nonsense. So, I'll ask again, show me where I did, as you've claimed. Practice what you preach. And again, I couldn't care less about a "ticking clock" for either of them, and neither will the Cowboys. They're not making long term decision on either Bryant or Elliott. They see the true, bigger picture. It's about the team and the organization, not any one or two players.

Again, I don't care about the math. And I've mentioned that numerous times. But once again, you see what you want to see, not what is. I don't care if they can be reckless with the cap, only that they shouldn't be.

And they won't.

And yet here we are?

With you desperately chasing after each and every post I make in this thread.

Methinks thou doth protest too much!

"I said nothing about any "10 years" nonsense."

I am not going to look for the 10 year reference - you are not worth the effort.
My point: With Zeke/Dez's limited primes, a slower organic growth strategy would run against the ticking clock.
Your point: Because there is none.
That is worse than 10 years - you said there is no time limit.
We could only wish that was true lol
You accuse me of making stupid statements.
There you go - you talk first and think second.


"Again, I don't care about the math."
Yes facts do not matter to you.
You think what you think and you are always right.
lol you talk yourself into a corner then facts do not matter.

 

[Verdict]

Friendly FYI:

Thanks. I was thinking that first rounders were 4 years plus one. and after that it went down to three thanks for the clarification.

 

[Verdict]

Thanks for an objective answer.
I never heard of Vernon until free agency happened last year.
How many of you went into FA last year saying - oh the Cowboys need Vernon?
Not a household name.
The point is with the new market, one has to pick the emerging gems and pay them a lot.
We are seeing massive inflation in the market.
It is reasonable to get sticker shock in such a market.
If we can adapt, we can prosper because a lot of the other GMs are old-school.

We have less cap room than most of the other teams; therefore, we are, relatively speaking in a less than ideal cap situation.

 

[Stash]

"I said nothing about any "10 years" nonsense."

I am not going to look for the 10 year reference - you are not worth the effort.

Exactly as I expected. Are a goals vlaim about something another person said and then try to deflect it back on them someone when you fail to support it.

My point: With Zeke/Dez's limited primes, a slower organic growth strategy would run against the ticking clock.
Your point: Because there is none.
That is worse than 10 years - you said there is no time limit.
We could only wish that was true lol
You accuse me of making stupid statements.
There you go - you talk first and think second.

My point is that you don't plan a franchise around two players. And that's been made clear numerous times.

"Again, I don't care about the math."
Yes facts do not matter to you.
You think what you think and you are always right.
lol you talk yourself into a corner then facts do not matter.

Do you not even know how to quote someone properly?

"Facts" have nothing to do with your math, nor with your planned cap suicide. I've said it before and I'll repeat it until you understand it. Just because the Cowboys can destroy their cap and future, doesn't mean they should.