This defense will surprise people

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Idgit

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Disagree with getting a similar RB...no one comes close to helping the team as to what Elliott does. Except maybe Henry in the 2nd, but still not as much.
Would you trust any of the remaining RB's in the draft to protect Romo on blocking assignments? I wouldn't.
And as proven over and over again, as Romo goes, so does the team for the most part.

This gets into the common argument on the value of RBs in the NFL. It's not surprising that you'd disagree if you don't buy into that premise. I didn't like Henry, but I'm comfortable with McFadden in pass protection. I'd still take a defender over a RB if we're just looking at hist impact in the passing game.
 

GimmeTheBall!

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I find it hilarious how many people are talking about just how bad our defense is, definitely laughable.

The prior year the Panthers made the playoffs with a losing record. They had the 21st ranked defense in the NFL. They had Greg Hardy, but he was suspended for the entire year and they did not re-sign him.

They had the 19th ranked offense in the league.

The next year they were the 1st ranked offense in the league and the 6th ranked defense in the league.

Are there a lot of IFs on this defense? Absolutely, there are, but people are ignoring the investments we've made that have yet to bear fruit.

Second year defensive players - Randy Gregory, Byron Jones. Two players with first round grades and while Randy Gregory is suspended for 4 games, I believe once he returns he will have an impact. I think Jones at safety full time will have a large impact.

Returning players - Orlando Scandrick. I think a couple years ago Scandrick was one of our best players on defense. Probably the second best player on defense behind Sean Lee at the time. His return seriously bolsters the secondary.

I fully expect this defense to look different this year especially given the position the offense will put it in. Despite going 4-12, that defense was ranked 16th in the NFL in points... Certainly not as bad as people would suggest, but that is the narrative people are running with.

Dear Galian Beast, my rugged friend from the gridiron. Blimey! If you are ever in the neighborhood, come on over. We shall go to the nearest pharmacy, buy a quart of nuclear fuel and take a ride in my DeLorean. Once in the past we can visit all the years that fans have said that are defense will "surprise" people. Well, I have constantly been surprised at its ineptness, disorganization, feebleness and haplessness due to lack of talent, ongoing suspensions and injuries and just poor showings in FA and the draft. We can't seem to fix the secondary. And the line suffers because of this. And DE is a perpetual work in progress.

I hope this defense will surprise us in a good way. But, mate, do not hold your breath. I and we have been there before.

Also the fact that a fan has to say the defense will "surprise" us is never a good sign. Any good defense is not supposed to surprise the fandom and instead just do its sterling job, as it should.
 
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Idgit

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It's not disparagement against you as a person, even though I don't like you one bit and I don't have any issue saying that here for everyone to see.

I am, however, disparaging your opinion because it's rooted in a failure to see the totality of the picture, and that much is not really up for debate, because I have "gone up and read your posts."

Actually, what you're doing is disparaging your wrong interpretation of my opinions because you can't be bothered to read carefully. Let's be honest. If you've 'gone up and read them' since, the next step is to actually understand them, I guess. I'm at a loss for helping you there, though Asthma did try to help out. Not really my responsibility though. I can't both write them and understand them for you.

You don't have to like me; I don't care. But let's not let it become part of the thread, ok? It's not relevant.
 

Wizarus

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I'll believe it when I see it. For now I expect the offense to carry them if we are successful.

No expectations = no disappointments
 

Idgit

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Impact? What are Thornton, Mayowa, Irvin, Gregory, Lawrence, Lee, McClain, Scandrick, and Jones? Chopped liver when compared to possible first year player productions....?

I said 'more impact players.' Of that group you've named, Mayowa and Thornton are the only ones who've got a chance to be incremental impact players. And yes, I don't consider either of them likely to be true impact players in the way a top-5 pick could be.

I'm not sure how it's confusing that I"m talking about improvement over and above what we actually did, here, but it somehow seems to be. I haven't dinged the signings, because for the most part I like what we actually did do in FA. I'm thrilled Scandrick's back, because he's a really good player. I'm saying as clearly as I can that I believe we should have done more on top of that because there's a lot more that could have been done to improve the quality of players we have on this defense for this coming season given how good the offense actually is when Tony Romo is throwing the football.
 

CCBoy

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The problem with that argument is that we could have gotten similar RB impact from taking a player lower in the draft, and still stockpiled a defensive player at a position of need for the very near-term future (CB/S).

Really justifying a poor indicator on a running back that probably is the very best addition that could have the best first year contribution.
 

Idgit

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Really justifying a poor indicator on a running back that probably is the very best addition that could have the best first year contribution.

Not sure what you're saying here.
 

CCBoy

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I said 'more impact players.' Of that group you've named, Mayowa and Thornton are the only ones who've got a chance to be incremental impact players. And yes, I don't consider either of them likely to be true impact players in the way a top-5 pick could be.

I'm not sure how it's confusing that I"m talking about improvement over and above what we actually did, here, but it somehow seems to be. I haven't dinged the signings, because for the most part I like what we actually did do in FA. I'm thrilled Scandrick's back, because he's a really good player. I'm saying as clearly as I can that I believe we should have done more on top of that because there's a lot more that could have been done to improve the quality of players we have on this defense for this coming season given how good the offense actually is when Tony Romo is throwing the football.

I think that the bottom line, is that the greatest strength of the Dallas Cowboys today, is their offense. What will set it apart from a Washington or New York Giants, is their additional ability to run smash mouth when needed. Like it or not, the NFC East and it's talents, have to be won before there is real chances of playoffs. The team did what was best for it's own team...not theories of balance.
 

Doomsday101

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I'm not sure about being overly surprised. I think interior of DL will be improved however issues at DE I think is real not panic. Cowboys 2 best DE are suspended and frankly both still have much to prove outside of them it is an even bigger question mark. I do feel with Byron Jones at FS that area will be improved over Wilcox who continues to take bad angles and has given up big gainers and TD because of it. I think Jones will sure up that area. Overall improvement on defense hard to say while individuals make up a unit it is normally how a unit meshes together to form a good defense.
 

ActualCowboysFan

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I'm not suggesting most of those things, no. You can go up and read my posts for what I actually suggested if you care to.

You're piling on the disparagement pretty thick, but I'll set that aside. As for what I'd have done differently, I hadn't mentioned it before because it's unrelated to the thread, but since you asked: before the draft I had Bosa, then Ramsey, then Elliott as my most likely picks, in that order. So I'd have gone Ramsey at #4 and not looked back. At #34, I'd have bundled that pick for Lynch even though that contradicts my position here. I'd have done that because QB is a position where I'd make an exception because I'm not, in fact, myopic at all. Failing that, I liked Dodd in the 2nd. When he went off the board there were still a ton of safer defensive players to choose from Xavien Howard, Ragland, Billings, and Bullard were all players we could have taken that were safer bets at positions of relative need.

Billings and Ragland don't come close to fitting though.
 

Idgit

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Billings and Ragland don't come close to fitting though.

I know that's what's been reported, but I think Billings could be a dominant player inside for us at the 1-tech. Ragland I think could play any 4-3 spot and be a consistent player and potential tone-setter for us. And he's got the added benefit of not having his professional football career in doubt.
 

KJJ

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Every year many here pick the defense to be better it has more to do with hope than educated thinking. Last year I saw a comment from someone predicting the defense would be top 5...wishful thinking! The defense hasn't been good in YEARS for good reason there hasn't been a lot of talent on that side of the ball. The secondary has been a problem for the past couple of decades and the release of Ware has diminished our sack and INT totals the past 2 seasons. Our last year with Ware in 2013 our corners combined for 6 INT's and since Ware's departure Scandrick is our only corner that's recorded any picks. Heading into 2016 our pass rush is going to be a huge concern with Hardy gone and DLaw our top sacker from last season out the first 4 games. Both Hardy and DLaw accounted for 13 sacks and some of DLaw's sacks can be attributed to having Hardy on the field.

Although Scandrick is coming back he's coming back from a serious injury that cost him all of last season so we'll have to see where his game is. The defense is going to have to surprise because no one is expecting it to be good. What will help improve the D some is having Romo for a full season and what should be an improved running game. Our offense is going to have to mask some of the deficiencies we have on defense and we're going to need some defensive players to step up. Our offense is probably going to be our best defense by putting points on the board and getting teams behind. This is what helped improve the defense in 2014.

Getting opponents behind and forcing them to press leads to turnovers. Keeping our defense off the field and fresh makes for a better more alert defense. The D got worn down in some games last season due to an inefficient offense. If we can't get pressure on the QB it's going to be hard to stop anyone. Not having a pass rush creates problems for your entire defense. You can't just blitz all day you have to be able to get pressure with your front four. Not having a formidable edge rusher is going to be a problem for us so players are going to have to step up or we'll get toasted.
 

Verdict

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Hey, I'm not claiming I can predict the future. My theory rests on the probability that players picked 30 or 60 or 90 spots of other players can be assumed to play better than the players picked below them. I think that's a pretty reasonable assumption to make in allocating draft resources. But sure, If our 6th rounders all turn out to be all-pro's then that's great for the Cowboys. I'd be very happy with that.

I think that this year the depth of quality talent on the interior defensive line made it more of a pick your flavor kind of thing in the draft at that position. It is highly likely that lower drafted defensive interior players will outperform their higher drafted counterparts, even more than usual. I think we got a great player in Tapper as well, at a discount due in large part to how he was miscast in college.

I'm not really throwing you under the bus about your post, I am just saying it isn't like we just picked up a couple of free agent signings and hoped for the best. We have put some significant, premium picks in play over the past two years to help shore up the defense. One would expect something out of those picks to bear fruit, along with getting rid of the Golden Cock ,and replacing him with someone who can actually play at a reasonably high level.
 

Verdict

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I know that's what's been reported, but I think Billings could be a dominant player inside for us at the 1-tech. Ragland I think could play any 4-3 spot and be a consistent player and potential tone-setter for us. And he's got the added benefit of not having his professional football career in doubt.

I do agree that it is plausible that we could have selected a player who might contribute more in the second round than our second round pick this year, because there is a significant chance he won't play at all this year. But if he truly is a top 5 talent, then it was probably a reasonable risk to take him.
 

Verdict

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Every year many here pick the defense to be better it has more to do with hope than educated thinking. Last year I saw a comment from someone predicting the defense would be top 5...wishful thinking! The defense hasn't been good in YEARS for good reason there hasn't been a lot of talent on that side of the ball. The secondary has been a problem for the past couple of decades and the release of Ware has diminished our sack and INT totals the past 2 seasons. Our last year with Ware in 2013 our corners combined for 6 INT's and since Ware's departure Scandrick is our only corner that's recorded any picks. Heading into 2016 our pass rush is going to be a huge concern with Hardy gone and DLaw our top sacker from last season out the first 4 games. Both Hardy and DLaw accounted for 13 sacks and some of DLaw's sacks can be attributed to having Hardy on the field.

Although Scandrick is coming back he's coming back from a serious injury that cost him all of last season so we'll have to see where his game is. The defense is going to have to surprise because no one is expecting it to be good. What will help improve the D some is having Romo for a full season and what should be an improved running game. Our offense is going to have to mask some of the deficiencies we have on defense and we're going to need some defensive players to step up. Our offense is probably going to be our best defense by putting points on the board and getting teams behind. This is what helped improve the defense in 2014.

Getting opponents behind and forcing them to press leads to turnovers. Keeping our defense off the field and fresh makes for a better more alert defense. The D got worn down in some games last season due to an inefficient offense. If we can't get pressure on the QB it's going to be hard to stop anyone. Not having a pass rush creates problems for your entire defense. You can't just blitz all day you have to be able to get pressure with your front four. Not having a formidable edge rusher is going to be a problem for us so players are going to have to step up or we'll get toasted.

It is arguable that sacks are more disruptive and tend to cause more turnoeves when they come from the inside. Pressure is very important, even vital. But it doesn't HAVE to come from the edge. It is actually best if it comes from everywhere, because it keeps the QBs guessing and a bit more eager to throw the ball away. One edge pressure player is just too easy to block.
 

KJJ

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It is arguable that sacks are more disruptive and tend to cause more turnoeves when they come from the inside. Pressure is very important, even vital. But it doesn't HAVE to come from the edge. It is actually best if it comes from everywhere, because it keeps the QBs guessing and a bit more eager to throw the ball away. One edge pressure player is just too easy to block.

What's disruptive to an offense/QB is pressure that's what creates turnovers. Having a great edge rusher to contend with can help get inside pressure if you're lacking a big, nasty DT who can collapse the pocket. Edge rushers can create a lot of havoc they can destroy a QB and to contain the top edge rushers it takes double teams which frees up other players. Look at all the destruction Charles Haley helped create due to the talent he freed up. He never put up more than 13 sacks in a season with the Cowboys but he created havoc with opponents trying to contain him. He had several players around hm that could get to the QB. We saw last season the havoc Miller and Ware created in Denver.

Having to contend with them created pressure from all angles. Cam's head was on a swivel in the SB he had no way to escape the pressure. To contain the top QBs in the game it takes a great pass rush. It's hard to get pressure from different angles unless you have 2-3 good pass rushers or one great edge rusher who has some talent around them. Ware never had the talent around him in Dallas for the Cowboys D to create pressure from different angles. Neither he or Miller is having to put up 20 sacks in Denver because they have a solid defense around them with other players who can apply pressure.
 
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Idgit

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I think that this year the depth of quality talent on the interior defensive line made it more of a pick your flavor kind of thing in the draft at that position. It is highly likely that lower drafted defensive interior players will outperform their higher drafted counterparts, even more than usual. I think we got a great player in Tapper as well, at a discount due in large part to how he was miscast in college.

I'm not really throwing you under the bus about your post, I am just saying it isn't like we just picked up a couple of free agent signings and hoped for the best. We have put some significant, premium picks in play over the past two years to help shore up the defense. One would expect something out of those picks to bear fruit, along with getting rid of the Golden Cock ,and replacing him with someone who can actually play at a reasonably high level.


I do agree that it is plausible that we could have selected a player who might contribute more in the second round than our second round pick this year, because there is a significant chance he won't play at all this year. But if he truly is a top 5 talent, then it was probably a reasonable risk to take him.

I like both Maliek Collins and Charles Tapper, for the record. I like Elliott a lot as a player, too. I just think it was a bad strategic direction to take with that high pick.

Here's the thing about the defensive investments, though (and I'd agree with you that we've spent resources there in recent years that are in the process of developing). Next season, we could realistically be replacing Barry Church, JJ Wilcox (I don't think he even makes it out of camp this year), Brandon Carr, and Mo Claiborne. Randy Gregory is our only blue-chip player at rush end (I agree we've got some rotational guys with potential, but there's a shortage of pedigree there), and not only was his season disappointing last year after the HAS, he's a puff away from being off the roster himself. That in itself isn't the end of the world, but he's a huge risk. So you either give the guy snaps and develop him with the expectation of extending him if he develops, or you cut bait. However you look at it, it's a high-risk/high-reward move.

Now, you add to that a similar high-risk/high-reward move with Jaylon Smith. That's a lot of risk for a team that needs defensive help to take advantage of the closing Romo window. We passed up on the DB help this year. If these players don't hit, it means overspending in FA, drafting for need, or hoping to get by at some key positions again with value free agents. At that point, Tony's 36, will be 37 next season, and you're also seriously looking at bundling picks to get in position for his replacement (something we could have done this year with our 2nd and 3rd, btw). Add in the likely departure of Williams as WR2, and that's a whole lot of holes in my book just to have the (admittedly) best all around RB in recent drafts in the roster and a lottery ticket at MLB that might or might not pay off.

It would have been much smarter to just take a good safe defensive player in the 2nd round each of the last two years. Or to have moved back this year from 34 and gotten 2 top-100 players with that pick. Or we could have filled the QB2 position with Lynch this year and saved those future picks for a QB to bolster the defense on the fly where we're going to need it. Instead, we've got no legit QB2 prospect (I like Dak, but he needs to develop a year before I'll consider him a candidate for QB1 someday), and a lottery ticket on Gregory and a lottery ticket on Smith. If there's a plan for the secondary going forward beyond making starters out of 6th round draft picks, they're keeping it under careful wraps.

I'm generally an optimistic person, and I definitely give the team the benefit of the doubt if they have a plan that seems workable on the surface, even if it's risky. My problem this offseason is that this really doesn't look like a plan to me at all. It looks like we're wildcatting that we'll turn a troubled player into our pass rush, that we'll turn an injured Mike into our next great linebacker, and that we'll turn an NFL longshot with a great head and a small arm into a legitimate backup QB for the next few seasons. Beyond that, the plan to replace Tony looks really, really thin. To me, this means that our highest offseason priorities have been either completely neglected or addressed with relative long-shots (Mayowa, Prescott). That is not the smart process-oriented football I expect from Garrett. It looks more like crazy-Jerry getting into the hen house again at a time where we really can't afford it.
 

Macnalty

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Tend to agree about Scandrick. If he doesn't get his off the field distractions under control, it won't be good. Fans don't rag on him like they do others they want to whip on. Because the spawn of satan buddy Ryan, said he was the best player on D, and he made some plays. I like Scandrick, but I am still waiting for him to be that difference of a playmaker in the secondary.
Right now, I would like mo and Carr as the corners, and OScan in the slot. With Jones at FS, I think that can cover up some SS issues and be more productive.

Scandrick has off the field distractions, not issues, but distractions...why don't fans rag on him like others. Why don't the media either. If Dez had a girlfriend causing distractions, they would be all over it calling him a no good bum.

Maybe we hit the lottery on him and his personality can adjust to the distractions, history is not his friend.
 

slick325

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I think the defense will be better this season and surprise many as well. At some point all the picks within the first 4 rounds of the past three drafts have to payoff. In 2014, they spent a 2nd (and gave up a 3rd) for DLaw at DE. Then used the 4th rounder on Hitchens at LB. In 2015, they spent their 1st rounder on B. Jones at CB/FS. Then spend their 2nd on Gregory (gamble because he entered the League in the drug program) at DE and their 4th on D. Wilson at LB. 2016, they use the 2nd on Jaylon Smith at LB (major gamble due to injury), the 3rd on M. Collins at DT and C. Tapper in the 4th round at DE.

That's a lot of resources in three drafts. Eventually, it has to payoff. In that same period, they only used premium picks (I'm including rounds 1-4 even though it could be just 1-3...aids my argument...lol) on three offensive players. Z. Martin, C. Green and E. Elliott.

Dallas has to start reaping rewards for the use of resources at some point...right?
 
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ilykdrama

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Scandrick back and Byron taking over for a complete embarrassing liability is all I needed going into 2016. I'm good. Got some young DE's that are going to surprise.
 
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