CFZ Time to pass the ball

[doomsday9084]

I don't know if you read the numbers wrong or are being intellectually dishonest.. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's the former. Dak's 2.5 second pocket time tied for 17th not 11th. His INT percentage was 3.8 to 3.5 for Fields. How is this "by a fair margin?" Likewise how different would it look if the 5 or 6 volleyballed INTs simply became incomplete passes. His INT percentage would drop from 3.8 to 2.5 if it was just 10 INTs not 15. Hell if you only cut those in half and brought his total down to 12 INTs on the season he would drop down to 3.0% .. And again.. this would have been without Dak doing a single thing different. Just having receivers bat the ball down instead of up.

Still I agree that Dak went overboard trying to force balls at times when he would have thrown it away or checked it down in years past. As I've stated many times.. He has to swing that pendulum back to being more cautious.. but not all the way back to be Kirk Cousins.

Dak gave up 10% more INT's per throw than the 2nd most. That's a "fair margin" don't you think? As far as those batted balls, don't you think that other QB's deal with that? How about the ones that he put right in a defender's hands and they dropped? I saw the stat above and just don't believe it. I recall some dropped INT's but I'm not going to go play by play through the entire season to confirm it for people who already have their mind made up.

Since you gave me the benefit of the doubt, I'll do the same for you. More "pocket time" is better. You have to sort that column by "descending", in which case Dak came out 11th. You must have sorted it by ascending to get 17th. Edit add: Pro-football-reference keeps extra decimal points they don't display I believe. Despite the fact that Dak's 2.5 would actually tie him for 6th, the real number is 11th.

Rk	Player	Tm	Age	Pos	G	GS	Cmp	Att	Yds	Sk	PktTime ▼	Bltz	Hrry	Hits	Prss	Prss%	Scrm	Yds/Scr
1	Justin Fields	CHI	23	QB	15	15	192	318	2242	55	2.7	102	33	31	119	26.9%	69	9.6
2	Patrick Mahomes*+	KAN	27	QB	17	17	435	648	5250	26	2.6	160	58	56	140	19.4%	46	7.5
3	Derek Carr*	LVR	31	QB	15	15	305	502	3522	27	2.6	119	33	40	100	18.4%	14	6.9
4	Lamar Jackson	BAL	25	QB	12	12	203	326	2242	26	2.6	125	32	15	73	19.4%	24	8.2
5	Marcus Mariota	ATL	29	QB	13	13	184	300	2219	28	2.6	101	13	33	74	20.9%	26	7.4
6	Justin Herbert	LAC	24	QB	17	17	477	699	4739	38	2.5	182	50	72	160	21.1%	22	6.5
7	Kirk Cousins*	MIN	34	QB	17	17	424	643	4547	46	2.5	159	36	84	166	23.7%	12	9.1
8	Josh Allen*	BUF	26	QB	16	16	359	567	4283	33	2.5	144	41	40	114	17.4%	57	9.4
9	Russell Wilson	DEN	34	QB	15	15	292	483	3524	55	2.5	138	42	65	162	28.6%	28	7.8
10	Daniel Jones	NYG	25	QB	16	16	317	472	3205	44	2.5	137	46	53	143	25.1%	53	7.2
11	Dak Prescott	DAL	29	QB	12	12	261	394	2860	20	2.5	102	29	37	86	20.0%	15	5.0

 

[CowboyoWales]

this is a misnomer and misunderstanding of WCO. its not run and shoot. there are a lot of timing and down field attacks in WCO that are comparable to Air Corrylle offense (Later Zampese, Later Norv Turner).

There is no one pure concept. Im using WCO as a short well timed routes utilizing YAC of our two primary receivers and Pollard (and even Deuce). I appreciate there's no one style, and it needs to fit the players we've got.

the challenge with Moore timing offense was the route combinations he used, which often put multiple receivers in the same area, thus jamming the defenders into the same area, which limited the passing lanes.

This is the reason I try get out of you what you think Dak struggles at. You tend to get on your high horse and look at my comments as a 'hater', when what im trying to do is evaluate the weaknesses so we can concept away from what he struggles at (as you say he's not elite....so play to his strength's and move from weaknesses).
Look at the high/low with one receiver on an option route, which you've repeatedly mentioned as being our downfall. If you look at Dak as being comfortable going through a 3/4 progressions across the field i'd agree that design is a waste....however if you think that Dak can miss defensive changes when he's not staring down the route development (and subsequent Safety positioning) then that high/low works as he's staring down a side of the field. The problem is that it requires Dak to hold onto the ball.....and if one of the receivers isnt open then he looks anxious and tends to make the sub-optimal throw.

does WCO include more slants and passes to RBs? Norv turner offense with Aikman had similar traits and it was a purely timing offense.
with that said, Bilicheck used similar concepts with Welker and Edleman and all the slants they ran with Brady (almost like a long hand off gaining 5-7 yards each time).

Yes it does, but that's what i'm advocating, especially when we've got some much YAC available, give it to the receivers/RB's as soon as possible, get them to gain the yards.

most important is routes and route combinations we run. isolating WRs and attacking the defense in as many defensive zones as possible at all levels to stress the defense.

You're describing Air Coryell and requires a QB to comfortable going through progressions and holding the ball as he doesnt know which of the receivers is getting open.....that's not Dak, for me he needs the quick release.

 

[CowboyoWales]

QB *and* WR
In most of the INT analyses I've seen, it was the WR making a poor call on the option.

Maybe, but whomever you want to blame it didnt work...... for me i'd take the out the option and play on design (with quick release)

 

[CowboyoWales]

Dak gave up 10% more INT's per throw than the 2nd most. That's a "fair margin" don't you think? As far as those batted balls, don't you think that other QB's deal with that? How about the ones that he put right in a defender's hands and they dropped? I saw the stat above and just don't believe it. I recall some dropped INT's but I'm not going to go play by play through the entire season to confirm it for people who already have their mind made up.

Since you gave me the benefit of the doubt, I'll do the same for you. More "pocket time" is better. You have to sort that column by "descending", in which case Dak came out 11th. You must have sorted it by ascending to get 17th. Edit add: Pro-football-reference keeps extra decimal points they don't display I believe. Despite the fact that Dak's 2.5 would actually tie him for 6th, the real number is 11th.

Rk	Player	Tm	Age	Pos	G	GS	Cmp	Att	Yds	Sk	PktTime ▼	Bltz	Hrry	Hits	Prss	Prss%	Scrm	Yds/Scr
1	Justin Fields	CHI	23	QB	15	15	192	318	2242	55	2.7	102	33	31	119	26.9%	69	9.6
2	Patrick Mahomes*+	KAN	27	QB	17	17	435	648	5250	26	2.6	160	58	56	140	19.4%	46	7.5
3	Derek Carr*	LVR	31	QB	15	15	305	502	3522	27	2.6	119	33	40	100	18.4%	14	6.9
4	Lamar Jackson	BAL	25	QB	12	12	203	326	2242	26	2.6	125	32	15	73	19.4%	24	8.2
5	Marcus Mariota	ATL	29	QB	13	13	184	300	2219	28	2.6	101	13	33	74	20.9%	26	7.4
6	Justin Herbert	LAC	24	QB	17	17	477	699	4739	38	2.5	182	50	72	160	21.1%	22	6.5
7	Kirk Cousins*	MIN	34	QB	17	17	424	643	4547	46	2.5	159	36	84	166	23.7%	12	9.1
8	Josh Allen*	BUF	26	QB	16	16	359	567	4283	33	2.5	144	41	40	114	17.4%	57	9.4
9	Russell Wilson	DEN	34	QB	15	15	292	483	3524	55	2.5	138	42	65	162	28.6%	28	7.8
10	Daniel Jones	NYG	25	QB	16	16	317	472	3205	44	2.5	137	46	53	143	25.1%	53	7.2
11	Dak Prescott	DAL	29	QB	12	12	261	394	2860	20	2.5	102	29	37	86	20.0%	15	5.0

Or joint 6th.

 

[America's Cowboy]

There is no one pure concept. Im using WCO as a short well timed routes utilizing YAC of our two primary receivers and Pollard (and even Deuce). I appreciate there's no one style, and it needs to fit the players we've got.

This is the reason I try get out of you what you think Dak struggles at. You tend to get on your high horse and look at my comments as a 'hater', when what im trying to do is evaluate the weaknesses so we can concept away from what he struggles at (as you say he's not elite....so play to his strength's and move from weaknesses).
Look at the high/low with one receiver on an option route, which you've repeatedly mentioned as being our downfall. If you look at Dak as being comfortable going through a 3/4 progressions across the field i'd agree that design is a waste....however if you think that Dak can miss defensive changes when he's not staring down the route development (and subsequent Safety positioning) then that high/low works as he's staring down a side of the field. The problem is that it requires Dak to hold onto the ball.....and if one of the receivers isnt open then he looks anxious and tends to make the sub-optimal throw.

Yes it does, but that's what i'm advocating, especially when we've got some much YAC available, give it to the receivers/RB's as soon as possible, get them to gain the yards.

You're describing Air Coryell and requires a QB to comfortable going through progressions and holding the ball as he doesnt know which of the receivers is getting open.....that's not Dak, for me he needs the quick release.

Hmm...mostly agree, but there are many times when Dak knows which of the WRs is to get open depending on the D alignment. Many current and retired pro coaches have said they can tell Dak is very good at reading and recognizing D formations before the hike of the football. I see the issue being more the receiver routes schemes called from the sidelines as not being adequate enough to better attack what opposing teams' defensive schemes are run.

 

[doomsday9084]

Or joint 6th.

I edited my post. Pro-football-reference keeps extra decimal points that it doesn't display I believe. That's why the sort comes up in that order. He is likely hundredths of a second out of having the 6th most pocket time.

 

[CowboyoWales]

Hmm...mostly agree, but there are many times when Dak knows which of the WRs is to get open depending on the D alignment. Many current and retired pro coaches have said they can tell Dak is very good at reading and recognizing D formations before the hike of the football. I see the issue being more the receiver routes schemes called from the sidelines as not being adequate enough to better attack what opposing teams' defensive schemes are run.

But what happens post snap (especially on Dak's blindside), aren't teams moving their Safeties out of alignment and that, combined with the WR routes, (and Dak focusing on other side of the field) results in a different show when he turns back to that progression?

It's as if what he expects is happening (out of view) and the reality are two different things. Taking out the option routes, especially on middle to deep routes will help. The strength in receiving corp this forthcoming season is our YAC (not route running).

 

[America's Cowboy]

Dak gave up 10% more INT's per throw than the 2nd most. That's a "fair margin" don't you think? As far as those batted balls, don't you think that other QB's deal with that? How about the ones that he put right in a defender's hands and they dropped? I saw the stat above and just don't believe it. I recall some dropped INT's but I'm not going to go play by play through the entire season to confirm it for people who already have their mind made up.

Since you gave me the benefit of the doubt, I'll do the same for you. More "pocket time" is better. You have to sort that column by "descending", in which case Dak came out 11th. You must have sorted it by ascending to get 17th. Edit add: Pro-football-reference keeps extra decimal points they don't display I believe. Despite the fact that Dak's 2.5 would actually tie him for 6th, the real number is 11th.

Rk	Player	Tm	Age	Pos	G	GS	Cmp	Att	Yds	Sk	PktTime ▼	Bltz	Hrry	Hits	Prss	Prss%	Scrm	Yds/Scr
1	Justin Fields	CHI	23	QB	15	15	192	318	2242	55	2.7	102	33	31	119	26.9%	69	9.6
2	Patrick Mahomes*+	KAN	27	QB	17	17	435	648	5250	26	2.6	160	58	56	140	19.4%	46	7.5
3	Derek Carr*	LVR	31	QB	15	15	305	502	3522	27	2.6	119	33	40	100	18.4%	14	6.9
4	Lamar Jackson	BAL	25	QB	12	12	203	326	2242	26	2.6	125	32	15	73	19.4%	24	8.2
5	Marcus Mariota	ATL	29	QB	13	13	184	300	2219	28	2.6	101	13	33	74	20.9%	26	7.4
6	Justin Herbert	LAC	24	QB	17	17	477	699	4739	38	2.5	182	50	72	160	21.1%	22	6.5
7	Kirk Cousins*	MIN	34	QB	17	17	424	643	4547	46	2.5	159	36	84	166	23.7%	12	9.1
8	Josh Allen*	BUF	26	QB	16	16	359	567	4283	33	2.5	144	41	40	114	17.4%	57	9.4
9	Russell Wilson	DEN	34	QB	15	15	292	483	3524	55	2.5	138	42	65	162	28.6%	28	7.8
10	Daniel Jones	NYG	25	QB	16	16	317	472	3205	44	2.5	137	46	53	143	25.1%	53	7.2
11	Dak Prescott	DAL	29	QB	12	12	261	394	2860	20	2.5	102	29	37	86	20.0%	15	5.0

Oooh, lookie lookie which QBs have as good or better pass protection time in the pocket than Dak. Hmm, proves what I've been saying, them other top QBs the haters lobe to worship actually has as good or better/longer pass protection.

 

[CowboyoWales]

I edited my post. Pro-football-reference keeps extra decimal points that it doesn't display I believe. That's why the sort comes up in that order. He is likely hundredths of a second out of having the 6th most pocket time.I

Is there data on release times on the Interceptions.

 

[America's Cowboy]

But what happens post snap (especially on Dak's blindside), aren't teams moving their Safeties out of alignment and that, combined with the WR routes, (and Dak focusing on other side of the field) results in a different show when he turns back to that progression?

It's as if what he expects is happening (out of view) and the reality are two different things. Taking out the option routes, especially on middle to deep routes will help. The strength in receiving corp this forthcoming season is our YAC (not route running).

I totally agree with you. I hate how Kellen Moore couldn't or wouldn't adjust to a better set of schemes to fit Dak and help the receivers. I also believe the Cowboys didn't have receivers thar could gain separation. Didn't the Cowboys receiving group get rated as the worst able to get separation group by the end of the 2022 season?

 

[CowboyoWales]

I totally agree with you. I hate how Kellen Moore couldn't or wouldn't adjust to a better set of schemes to fit Dak and help the receivers. I also believe the Cowboys didn't have receivers thar could gain separation. Didn't the Cowboys receiving group get rated as the worst able to get separation group by the end of the 2022 season?

Yep, Moore was the one trick pony.....but as you say that receiving corp was also a hindrance....when he used Pollard as a receiver (or check-down) we looked potent (which is one of the reasons I get on the WCO bandwagon).

 

[CowboyRoy]

I pretty much just enjoy the journey. I am not a sb or bust fan. I hope for that but if it don’t happen there are worse things in life

Jerry has disappointed long enough where I’m immune to it . That said I know Daks our best shot

That actually sounds like the best stance. Yah, Jerry lowers expectations no doubt.

 

[CowboyRoy]

Is there data on release times on the Interceptions.

There is data on it being 3rd and long on most of the interceptions. AS far as time to throw thats just not a good indicator as its too many factors and causes.

 

[CowboyoWales]

There is data on it being 3rd and long on most of the interceptions. AS far as time to throw thats just not a good indicator as its too many factors and causes.

No stat is perfect and yes there are other factors, however, it gives an indication (not as a hate on Dak) what he and the offense isn't comfortable doing.
I agree that standing alone Pocket Time means nothing (as its an average, that doesnt factor in success), but when cross referenced to that time and the INT's on 3rd Down's, long downs and evdn on his (55) rating when trailing with >2 mins) there COULD be a reflection on what how we need to play.to get the best out of the whole offense.

 

[doomsday9084]

Is there data on release times on the Interceptions.

I don't know where it is at but I believe the OP is discussing information related to that. Not sure of where the source is.

 

[doomsday9084]

Oooh, lookie lookie which QBs have as good or better pass protection time in the pocket than Dak. Hmm, proves what I've been saying, them other top QBs the haters lobe to worship actually has as good or better/longer pass protection.

If there is a guy who really has the argument that you ascribe for Dak, its Burrow. He was 29th in pocket time. Trevor Lawrence too. 30th.

Overall, this "pocket time" stat has flaws in that it is basically time to throw. The people who simply get it out quick have a lower number just like those who are getting hit quickly. All that it really does is dispel the idea that Dak had some disproportionately bad protection where the pocket was collapsing on him quickly compared to other QB's. He didn't have all day to throw but his protection wasn't bad either.

We are really focusing on this pocket time stat because Ronnie misread it. The other to look at is pressure%. Again, Dak didn't have the best protection, but it was actually above average. Its nothing like the "bad" protection that Dak supporters try to make it out to be. Note for those reading this, a higher number means worse protection.

Rk	Player	Tm	Age	Pos	G	GS	Cmp	Att	Yds	Sk	PktTime	Bltz	Hrry	Hits	Prss	Prss% ▼	Scrm	Yds/Scr
1	Russell Wilson	DEN	34	QB	15	15	292	483	3524	55	2.5	138	42	65	162	28.6%	28	7.8
2	Taylor Heinicke	WAS	29	QB	9	9	161	259	1859	19	2.5	63	22	40	81	27.7%	14	6.5
3	Justin Fields	CHI	23	QB	15	15	192	318	2242	55	2.7	102	33	31	119	26.9%	69	9.6
4	Zach Wilson	NYJ	23	QB	9	9	132	242	1688	23	2.5	94	36	15	74	26.6%	13	7.5
5	Daniel Jones	NYG	25	QB	16	16	317	472	3205	44	2.5	137	46	53	143	25.1%	53	7.2
6	Jacoby Brissett	CLE	30	QB	16	11	236	369	2608	24	2.5	101	39	39	102	24.5%	23	8.7
7	Ryan Tannehill	TEN	34	QB	12	12	212	325	2536	33	2.5	105	22	35	90	24.3%	13	7.2
8	Matt Ryan	IND	37	QB	12	12	309	461	3057	38	2.3	145	33	51	122	24.0%	10	8.0
9	Kirk Cousins*	MIN	34	QB	17	17	424	643	4547	46	2.5	159	36	84	166	23.7%	12	9.1
10	Davis Mills	HOU	24	QB	15	15	292	479	3118	31	2.3	127	34	59	124	23.6%	16	6.3
11	Matthew Stafford	LAR	34	QB	9	9	206	303	2087	29	2.3	77	23	27	79	23.4%	5	3.0
12	Geno Smith*	SEA	32	QB	17	17	399	572	4282	46	2.4	170	37	64	147	22.5%	34	9.1
13	Carson Wentz	WAS	30	QB	8	7	172	276	1755	26	2.3	84	15	29	70	22.3%	12	6.8
14	Justin Herbert	LAC	24	QB	17	17	477	699	4739	38	2.5	182	50	72	160	21.1%	22	6.5
15	Kenny Pickett	PIT	24	QB	13	12	245	389	2404	27	2.5	95	34	32	93	21.0%	27	7.3
16	Marcus Mariota	ATL	29	QB	13	13	184	300	2219	28	2.6	101	13	33	74	20.9%	26	7.4
17	Baker Mayfield	2TM	27		12	10	201	335	2163	36		110	23	21	80	20.7%	15	5.5
18	Dak Prescott	DAL	29	QB	12	12	261	394	2860	20	2.5	102	29	37	86	20.0%	15	5.0

 

[CCBoy]

Dak and dunk = carving. Got it. Need only 8 more years to practice.

C'mon, this is the professional level where there is a staff in place as well as a quarterback coach to keep up with stats and tendencies...to include game techniques. That is even supported by a stats group that runs programs on their own and opponents very thoroughly each and every game. I would also place a wager that a spread sheet is compiled by half-time each game as well. Sophisticated, now?

 

[CCBoy]

Only 20 more days until TC report day counting today.
Only 573 more Dak threads to go.

Posters should be limited in the latrine to five minutes when strictly stirring the pot...

 

[CowboyoWales]

I don't know where it is at but I believe the OP is discussing information related to that. Not sure of where the source is.

Yep, another factor would be how Dak fares in reduced pocket time as opposed to time allowed heavy coverage..... stats on the 49ers game would be interesting....though I imagine using Pollard on flat routes to counter this would have helped.

 

[CouchCoach]

I pretty much just enjoy the journey. I am not a sb or bust fan. I hope for that but if it don’t happen there are worse things in life

Jerry has disappointed long enough where I’m immune to it . That said I know Daks our best shot

Agree, if we want this season to matter, he's the only shot. If they's drafted a new QB, think how that would work this season with this unknown OL.

This season is going to be the most interesting one yet when it comes to Prescott and his HC.

McC has put himself square in the bull's eye by taking over the play calling and thinks he can better utilize Prescott's skill set than Moore did. I think Moore is a good young OC but I think he is better equipped with a QB like Herbert than Prescott. Moore will do better with a young gun and that is not what Prescott is or should be.

McC can elevate himself by just getting Prescott to play QB, not passer. He needs to take the pressure off Prescott because he knows he is just rearing to prove everyone wrong about him being a pick thrower and the reason they lost that playoff game. There is no QB in the game under more pressure than Prescott and McC needs to relieve that.