CFZ Time to pass the ball

Diehardblues

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Yup,
I criticized the second contract of DeMarcus Lawrence for being a fully guaranteed 100 mil and his lack of sack numbers. I'm a guy who needs some actual sacks for that kinda money.
I was chastised for my lack of respect for such a run stopping pillar of humanity that is Tank Lawrence.

Everybody's got their own criteria in forming personal opinions.
To each his own.

And I'll criticize regardless and don't give a flying **** for those who "attempt" to regulate my opinion.
And yeah, you're right. Once they've left this team, those same fans are quick to rationalize how that player sucks now.
Lol
We must remember not all owners, especially our owner , has priorities which don’t necessarily align with ours.

Popular players put butts in the seats, sells merchandise and like Dak can help provide an interesting and relative product .

If it leads to a championship fine but that isn’t the only measurement for success.
 

Diehardblues

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Mods have a tough job they have to be fair and that includes rationalizing hater bs
The best thing we can do to help the Mods is ignore the trolls. Their existence is fed by baiting passionate fans. And why sometimes the Homers can become as much of a problem as the Haters.
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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correlation, causation

When your reads are covered, you have to hold the ball longer and are less likely to have completions.
When your reads are open, you get rid of the ball faster and are more likely to have completions.
yes and a no. it depends on the route and how long does it take to get to the spot where the throw is got to go....so its a mixed bag. but you are correct, sometimes you hold on to the ball because no one is open.
 

CowboyRoy

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Interesting statline.

In 2022: When Dak threw the ball in 2.5 seconds or less, he had a 77% completion rate, 8 touchdowns and only 3 interceptions with a 99.3 passer rating. When Dak held onto the ball longer than 2.5 seconds, he had a 57.8% completion rate, threw 20 touchdowns, but also 14 interceptions with a 87.5 passer rating. These numbers include the playoffs last year.

In 2022, Dak averaged 2.7 seconds holding the ball per pass attempt.

Some take-always: Kellen Moore’s system was modeled on the Air Coryell model. Coryell was all about being aggressive with long-developing plays thrown farther downfield. Moore’s system required Dak to hold onto the ball longer, which also meant that the defense was anticipating the throws more, which led to a big increase in interceptions.

Also, McCarthy’s historical strength as a play caller is his use of the play action pass with quick short throws that carve up the defense with routes under 15 yards.

If McCarthy can provide an adjusted scheme, which has Dak throwing more short, quick passes to receivers running in stride, then Dak can carve up defenses with a high completion percentage, and much lower turnover rate.

This plays to Dak’s strengths, and also leads to fewer sacks from an Oline group that is transitioning to new personnel (3 new starters in last 3 seasons, and maybe a 4th new starter this season.

The key seems to be the time it takes to get the ball out of Dak’s hands. Keep it under 2.5 seconds and he’s among the best in the league. Over that, Dak begins to force balls into defenses that are waiting for him.

So, I think McCarthy, who recently hired an analytics guru for his staff, is going to create a scheme more friendly to Dak, and get the ball out more quickly. All the talk about running it more may or may not happen. But McCarthy is setting up the league to EXPECT more running so the play action passing game he’s so good at calling will work.
Hard to tell with that stats. You are assuming that Dak is holding onto to the ball on purpose or by design. ON many of those picks it was 3rd and long. So he naturally has to allow his receivers time to get deeper on routes. You can also be running for your life and take longer to throw it because of that. Receivers maybe arent open and you have to go further into your progressions.

But I agree that ANY offense is better served getting the ball out quicker. Brady made a living out of doing that.
 

CowboyRoy

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Great post and it mad me read more about the system. Thank you.

I’m sure Kellen Moore tweaked his system much like Martz, Gibbs and Norv Turner did complete with check down options as well. Do you think some of this implies that Dak was not assessing coverage quick enough as well at times? Or that there weren’t enough check down options? Or a combo of both?

Seems like McCarthy likes the system but just wants to mix in more timely runs if that is even to be believed over him actually just wanting to justify firing Moore. Them adding Cooks this off-season implies to me we actually won’t see much change in run/pass or even scheme.
Do you believe everything that someone writes?
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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Excellent post.

But in Air Coryell Dak's having to go through the progressions in hope that someone is open.....hence extending the time with ball in hand and increasing (for me) his anxiety and making throws that arent there. So you overcome that by putting the emphasis on a WCO initial separation and then to check-down straight away. It suits us now as we've got a number of receivers (both WR and RB's) proficient in YAC to execute it.
this is a misnomer and misunderstanding of WCO. its not run and shoot. there are a lot of timing and down field attacks in WCO that are comparable to Air Corrylle offense (Later Zampese, Later Norv Turner). the challenge with Moore timing offense was the route combinations he used, which often put multiple receivers in the same area, thus jamming the defenders into the same area, which limited the passing lanes.

does WCO include more slants and passes to RBs? Norv turner offense with Aikman had similar traits and it was a purely timing offense.
with that said, Bilicheck used similar concepts with Welker and Edleman and all the slants they ran with Brady (almost like a long hand off gaining 5-7 yards each time).

there is almost no pure offensive philosophy of one type of other. I don't think we are going to run pure WCO ala 1990s SF and Bill Walsh.

most important is routes and route combinations we run. isolating WRs and attacking the defense in as many defensive zones as possible at all levels to stress the defense.
 

CowboyRoy

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https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2022/passing_advanced.htm

Dak had:
- The 11th most pocket time at 2.5 seconds
- The 16th lowest pressure%
Dak's blocking wasn't the best in the league . . . but
- The highest INT% in the NFL, by a fair margin

Basically, the issues with blocking do not justify Dak's interceptions. Personally, I blame Kellen Moore for a lot of that but not acknowledging just how bad Dak was for throwing the ball away last year just engenders more hatred for Dak. Hopefully this year this gets corrected.

I suspect that if this same data was run for Dak's rookie year, we would see that he got the ball out much earlier. One of Moore's primary issue was that there was no Beasley underneath outlet route being run when the deeper stuff wasn't there. Running 4 button hooks is so asinine its difficult to believe.
Your conclusions appear biased. And you are cherry picking blocking statistics. The Oline was NOT good at pass blocking last year. 28th in pass blocking win rate. There were problems all year with WR's getting separation and bad routes on many of the picks. We also had lost of 3rd and longs because the running game was so bad on first and 2nd down.
 

CouchCoach

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CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Mods have a tough job they have to be fair and that includes rationalizing hater bs

It’s just gone overboard recently
As long as the content is within the topic of the thread and no rules are being stretched, they can have at it.

However, from this mod's viewpoint, it is these threads that get the personal venom going too often.

I don't get this anymore than I did Romo. Did these guys steal their woman, key their ride or do they owe them money?
 

shabazz

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The best thing we can do to help the Mods is ignore the trolls. Their existence is fed by baiting passionate fans. And why sometimes the Homers can become as much of a problem as the Haters.
I can agree with most of this but the problem is the use of the word “ troll” which is used to insult a fellow forum member whenever said member disagrees with them on almost any topic.

I respect members that don’t use insults or personal attacks to defend their positions and 90% of the people using these words are people defending Rayne Dakota Prescott. ……they are the only ones getting triggered And seem to take it personally.
 

Captain-Crash

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I can agree with most of this but the problem is the use of the word “ troll” which is used to insult a fellow forum member whenever said member disagrees with them on almost any topic.

I respect members that don’t use insults or personal attacks to defend their positions and 90% of the people using these words are people defending Rayne Dakota Prescott. ……they are the only ones getting triggered And seem to take it personally.
they are the ones crying," haters." they troll the people who are not dak hero worshipers. It's easy to see in every thread. If you don't like dak, you're a troll, eagles fan, or hater. lmao,, kids...smh
 

Jumbo075

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this is all speculation on your part jumbo, and maybe it happens, but more than likely it doesnt,.
I dont think dak and his O can consistently do a 2.5 sec release. And I dont think they will try to either.
The stats are not speculation. They are validated history of Dak's performance. The speculation part, which I freely admit, is what McCarthy plans to do about it. But I "speculate" that he will address the disparity directly, and adjust his system to meet the strengths of Dak, and downplay his weaknesses. That's what good coaches do. I don't think my "speculation" is wild or unwarranted. But even if my "speculations" are correct, it remains to be seen if what McCarthy does will ultimately be successful in returning the Cowboys to their championship ways. None of us knows if it will work - not those who nominally "support" Dak, nor those who think he's a lost cause.
 

CowboyRoy

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I honestly don’t care if we see the Dak extension or not but it’s gonna be pure gold when Jerry does it and all the haters that said they were leaving all renege because that’s their schtick!

If you don’t have Dak hating what else you got lol.
So you wouldnt have an issue if they just let Dak walk?
 

Jumbo075

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Exactamundo mon ami. Longer routes takes more time to develop. Less talented receivers take more time to get open, if they ever do. Merely focusing on the time to release the ball is simply not going to come close to telling the whole story.
Read my post on changing the System. I agree with you 100%.
 

America's Cowboy

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It's the system's fault that Dak turns into a quivering pile of jelly if his first read is not there?

A QB has to be able to adapt when things don't go according to plan. Defenses will jump all over the short routes and force the issue. If you have a QB who struggles to adjust and adapt.... you don't have a QB.
More falsehoods from you as usual. We have all seen Dak go through his progressions repeatedly while still being able to deliver the ball to an open receiver. It takes a lot to intentionally lie and live your life like you've committed nothing wrong.
 

Diehardblues

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I can agree with most of this but the problem is the use of the word “ troll” which is used to insult a fellow forum member whenever said member disagrees with them on almost any topic.

I respect members that don’t use insults or personal attacks to defend their positions and 90% of the people using these words are people defending Rayne Dakota Prescott. ……they are the only ones getting triggered And seem to take it personally.
Understood! And agree to a point. But if you come into every Dak thread and all you have to add is the same spill that he suks and will NEVER win then your not participating or engaging in a sound discussion offering a counter to the opinion or stats and facts presented on that particular subject matter. That’s just trolling the thread regardless if you’re a troll or not.
 
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