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Trade for O.J. Howard?

Discussion in 'Roster Zone' started by BlueNSilver88, Apr 21, 2020.

  1. OmerV

    OmerV Well-Known Member

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    First, you are flip flopping again. You've gone from a TE is essential and a team can't win without a top end guy, to a TE is a waste of time unless you have a top end guy, to some situations a TE is a waste ….

    But even on 3rd and 20 there can be justification. For example, Jarwin has proven he can get downfield. I'll bet you weren't aware that 29% of Jarwin's receptions went for over 20 yards - same as Amari Cooper, and just slightly behind Cobb and Gallop..

    And, what you don't consider, is that Jarwin often would be covered by a LB, so even if he isn't as speedy as the WR's, neither is the guy covering him as speedy as the DBs covering WRs. Plus, sometimes in long yardage situations the WR's get so much focus from the defense the TE gets opportunities to make big plays, and even if the defense doesn't fall into that trap and puts focus on the TE, that opens up things for the WRs. Plus, at times, the TE can be an added pass blocker if needed to give the QB time while the WRs run deeper routes.

    It's all these roles and options that you don't seem to understand. Your viewpoint seems to be that TE's and WRs have the same job, so why use a TE when a WR is faster? That's not the case. And, again, that's not to say there might not be individual plays the team might want to run a formation without a TE, but a team doesn't want to go that way on every 3rd and long because that just makes the offense predictable.
     
  2. CowboysExchange

    CowboysExchange Active Member

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    I think leaving the tes on the field make us more predictable. All im saying is he cant play outside. Hes certainly limited to what he can do and who he can do it against. I said the Cowboys should use dual rbs and wrs at times to break up the monotony. Maybe another te will beat him out. He was undrafted so its not like were talking about an escobar or a 1st round grade on a te.

    I really dont think hes gonna be special enough to make game winning plays in the Red zone. Somebody on this team has to score in the red zone. That is my concern. This te core doesnt score much drawing bad defenders.

    Id take 30 tes over Jarwin if I was picking.. I betcha this whole te core has no more than 5 tds all season and none against any good teams. I hope they see some substitution if the stats dont materialize like usual. If he cant score or win games somebody else does. Whats the point of building a scheme around a position if the talent is not there. If he cant score in the first 3-4 games and were losing then he is just as much to blame.

    I hope he does great but all I see are Richard sherman highlights and losses in our future. I betcha yo dont wanna bet a bunch of cash on his production. Js Who is picking him in their fantasy league

    I
     
  3. OmerV

    OmerV Well-Known Member

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    You are too wrapped up in "game winning plays". Apparently you aren't aware that few plays go down to the wire where a "game winning play" is needed, and even of the ones that do, often the "game winning play" is a FG.

    As for Jarwin getting no more than 5 TD's, first of all, he had 3 TDs only playing about 30% of the snaps. Do the math.

    And second, most Most TEs don't get 10 TD's, starter or not, and neither do most 3rd WR's and zero #4 WR's, so what makes them better in the TD department?

    How many game winning TD's do #4 WR's score that would suggest they are a better option than a TE?

    You really have no idea about the NFL at all, do you. Aside from the fact that you don't understand the positions and the roles of each position, there are 32 NFL coaches that disagree with you. Do you think your fantasy football mindset has things figured out more than all 32 NFL head coaches?

    Well, let's just leave it that 32 NFL coaches disagree with you.
     
  4. CowboysExchange

    CowboysExchange Active Member

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    There isnt 32 teams that use their tes the way we do. Your philosophy sounds great and I understand where youre coming from but the stats in black n white dont add up to SUCCESS. These tes are really not very good. They havent been in Years. They are inconsistant. Their stats argue against all that involvement. We got no bonified tes on paper. But Let them play every snap even though they dont have winning stats?
     
  5. OmerV

    OmerV Well-Known Member

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    All 32 teams use TDs and none of them routinely pull out their TE's when there is a 3rd and long. And, many have TEs that aren't any better than Witten has been the last several years.

    You apparently have the notion that the only teams that use a TE on most plays are the ones that have guys like Kelse, Kittle and Ertz, and that's plain and simple not true.

    Most teams do not have TE's like that, and they do not run 4 WRs as their primary offense, and in fact, most teams have TE's on their roster that they use semi regularly that almost never catch passes at all, and are focused more on the blocking side.

    As for the stats in black and white, show me all these #4 WRs that are so much more productive than either Witten or even Jarwin playing limited snaps has been. Again, teams don't use a run and shoot offense where TE's are almost obsolete the way you seem to think. I suspect you are comparing TE's to the team's primary WR's, and that's a nonsense comparison.

    By the way, I'm still curious how you went from saying a team cannot win without a strong TE to saying the Cowboys need to quit giving playing time to a TE.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
  6. CowboysExchange

    CowboysExchange Active Member

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    First of all the cowboys use 2 sorry tes alot not just 1 sorry te. Lol.

    Ive never said a team cant win in an exclusive 11 and 12 personell passing group. What i said is our checkdown te system is trash in the red zone because our tes cant produce or draw coverage away from the other 4-5 skilled players.

    If you dont see why playing a te like swaim on every passing down and jarwin on 30% of all passing snaps leads to no superbowls its because you cant add or subtract tds. You give them a free pass to not score and they dont.

    A tes job isnt to be a possession receiver between the 20's and play every red zone passing snap and not score consistently.

    First we need to lose that 12 formation passing crap because its completely idiotic w this talent. Its completely idiotic w decent tes. It wont win beans and never has..

    Then we need to run some dual rb and slot wr formations to change up the monotony of the playcall and to keep the #1 te fresh. Our tes have no gas or production down the stretch. Never. They dont move the chains or score.

    This offense was designed for a gronk hernandez to score in the red zone and our tes are not deep threats or scoring threats they are checkdown receivers who cant threaten a defense on 1/2 of our passing plays.

    Were competing with teams that will cover the 4 great skilled players and force us to beat them with our tes. Its hard to beat anybody passing when your tes cant produce any production or scoring against good teams.

    Teams use dual rb and slot wrs all the time so you simply cant argue that they only use 11 and 12 personell groups. Name me one team that uses 12 and 11 personell groups exclusively besides the cowboys? Just 1
     
  7. CowboysExchange

    CowboysExchange Active Member

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    You talk like witten, swaim jarwin, escobar, hanna gathers and phillips are serviceable. Their blocking at the playoff level is trash also. Not just their receiving.

    There is no reason to send these losers out on 3rd and 20's. They dont have the skillsets to win consistently against sorry teams much less playoff teams. I guess its not the tes fault that we had the sorriest red zone offense in the league even though we use mainly the 12 personnell groups in the red zone? Hello. Drink another one

    You did say swaim was serviceable rogers. Weve argued this point for 5+ years. You just watch the highlights and show me one game a dallas cowboy te won for us in 6+ years blocking or receiving

    Youre arguing that you should play a te or 2 on every passing snap and im saying there are alot of times we need to substitute because they dont add anything to the play as a receiver.

    Football is situational and youre playing the named starter regardless of how sorry he is on paper

    When Twill went cold for half a season we still watched him play every snap. Lol. Same goes for these tes. We play the player not the skillset forr that down and distance.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  8. CowboysExchange

    CowboysExchange Active Member

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    As long as we use the 11 100% and 12 30% personnell groups exclusively on passing downs and the talent level is what it is now we wont win a Superbowl or Championship game Rogers. I'll put everything i own on that. Weve seen this team fold like a cheap suit for 15+ years w these checkdown blocking tes. This formula is not even half as consistent as the run n shoot offense but you talk it up as being trash. Lol. Overinvolving these tes in our passing game is a sorry scheme. Much sorrier than the run n shoot by far. Much sorrier than using dual backs like the saints too
     
  9. CowboysExchange

    CowboysExchange Active Member

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    We have more potent options and speed kills
    Lamb Cooper Gallop Austin zeke Dak/Dalton
    Lamb Cooper Gallop Pollard Zeke Dak/dalton
    *Lamb Cooper Gallop Dez Zeke Dak/Dalton
    Lamb Cooper Gallop Jarwin zeke Dak/Dalton

    Years past Makes ya wonder if we'll be using
    Lamb Cooper Jarwin Schultz Zeke Dak. Lol

    Will we stick w the ignorant 12 personell passing like years past or will we put the Kabosh on that stupid dual te passing scheme that has plagued our last 2 qbs for a decade now that 82 is FINALLY GONE!!!

    According to some in this forum (omar/Aka Rogers) this 12 formation is clutch. Lol.

    I hope the New Coach changes our ignorant scheme and uses some 10 personnell and dual rbs also. 6+ years Ive been preaching to squash the 12 personnell and use better rbs and wrs. 6+ YEARS THE WITTEN SUPPORTERS HAVE TALKED TRASH!!!

    The Dual slot wr and dual rb formations force the defense to use one less linebacker. No linebacker can cover our wrs or rbs. Lol. Less blocking and more speed kills a secondary. Run n shoot on occasion isnt bad when ya got a qb w some legs. Esp in the NO HUDDLE OR 2 MIN DRILLS
     
  10. OmerV

    OmerV Well-Known Member

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    You very first statement on this post is flat wrong. Witten played about 78% of the snaps last year, and Jarwin only about 30-32% of the snaps, so there is no way that can translate into using 2 TE's all the time.

    And yes, your early posts said a TE is essential to winning, and you point to the Oilers lack of use of a TE as your foundation for saying that.

    And sorry, you are wrong about the TE's not moving the chains - just something you made up to fit your narrative - and even so, the TE situation is not the same this year. Jarwin proved productive in his 30% role, so he needs a chance to prove what he can do in an expanded role. Get over Swaim an Witten, they aint on the team.

    Basically you just make up things to suit you. The TE's scored more than any 4th receiver, yet you claim having a 4th receiver would be more productive than a TE. That makes no sense. Plus, again, you still seem to have no concept that TE's have a different role than a WR. I suspect you are a fantasy football guy that doesn't grasp real football.

    As for dual RB's, sure there could be a place for it at times, but there is no blanket "do this instead of this" every time a situation comes up. A team has to have options, and you are oversimplifying. And, again, your viewpoint goes against what all 32 teams think. They all use TE's extensively, including TE's that rarely catch passes at all. That is lost on you because you don't get that a TE has different responsibilities and assignments than just being an extra receiver.
     
  11. CowboysExchange

    CowboysExchange Active Member

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    Well yeah those tes played hundreds of snaps and guys like pollord and austin sat out bro. They had better #'s per passing snap than tbe tes. lol. But the dual tes are the starters. Ha ha ha. Thats stupid bro. Just like #11 got When he was here. The te is the starter and the slot wr is the red headed stepchild who is spot played. Sorry bro ya got it all wrong

    Thats the problem. The only problem. Beasely led the entire league in open rate and we was not the starter. Ignorance at its finest

    Twill goes cold for 10 games and no substitution stupid

    Then swaim at his finest for almost a whole season without substitution stupid.

    If your guy cant score get him out!!!!! But noooo lets play #82 and the rest of these turdish te core w 4 tds all year while we limit the growth of the wrs and rbs in our scheme
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
  12. OmerV

    OmerV Well-Known Member

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    You don't think there is a reason Austin was forgotten with both the Rams and Cowboys? Or maybe you know the player better than the coaches that actually work with them and have experience in the NFL …

    Austin isn't even under contract at this point, and

    As for Pollard, he could be used more this year - he was a rookie after all, and not a WR, so he will get more looks in different situations. But even that doesn't eliminate the need for a TE. Pollard may be used in empty backfields, in place of one TE, even in long yardage situations. Again, a WR or a RB like Pollard cannot perform all the responsibilities and assignments of a TE, so using an extra WR or RB in lieu of having a TE on the field can be done as a common course of action.
     
  13. CowboysExchange

    CowboysExchange Active Member

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    2 tes is insane on passing downs bro. Are you gonna roll with
    Cooper Lamb Gallop jarwin zeke Dak or
    Cooper Gallop, Jarwin schultz zeke Dak

    Tell us all Rogers
     
  14. CowboysExchange

    CowboysExchange Active Member

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    Who is the worst receiver? Its Jarwin Bro.!!!! Mark My word. Austin can blow out a fourth defender. Jarwin cant do squat. Your watching austin as a #1 or 2. Not a number 4 guy. Hes way better than our tes put together. Lets see how he plays against the Giant all game. Hell have 5 tds if jarwin gets 3 ha ha. Hes faster and he can go up for a contested ball. Jarwin is a blown coverage specialist. Lol. He doesnt create much. Lets go with 3 wrs and bench that 12 for good bro. Its the Romo Dak plague. They will never win beans with a sorry dual te system w 2 scrubs. Sorry. 8-8 with the best rb in the league. If dak didnt run for tds this offense would really suck bad

    Wed have more firepower w austin going up against the 4th db. Its the same argument as Dez. Quit comparing him to a #1 or #2 or #3. Compare him to a #4 in a 4 wr set.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
  15. OmerV

    OmerV Well-Known Member

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    Not if they need an extra blocker it's not - again, a TE has multiple roles and assignments (you need to start comprehending that), and not if they need less than 10 yards.

    And, again, the 2nd TE only played about 30% of the snaps last year, and obviously many of those wouldn't have been on downs that were solely passing situations, so your imagination (or your aptitude for math) is steering you wrong if you think we are using 2 TEs at all times, including unquestioned passing situations.

    In any case, I find it funny you are now only arguing against 2 TE sets. Previoiusly you were complaining about using Jarwin at all, and saying even 1 TE was a waste, particularly in longer yardage situations. It seems flip flopping is a constant thing with you.
     
  16. CowboysExchange

    CowboysExchange Active Member

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    They dont need an extra blocker lol. Guys cancel out youre mistaken. Offense dictates the defense.

    Gronk draws 3 guys down hhe field on triple coverage. Who does he missing a block on lmao. They better be on their heels when they got that sauce on the field. Dak will run like cam and vick

    The extra blocker at te is not necessary. Lol Im right about that. I watched The oilers for 10 yrs. Plus you got a rb.

    The defense gets caught w a linebacker against a wr or rb that is a td almost every time

    The cowboys use a starting dual te system
    The oilers use a starting slot wr formation

    The oilers had 4 guys who could score
    The cowboys have 2 guys that can score

    Both are just as one dimensional as the other. Lol. Except the shuck n duck had more scorers. Ha ha ha

    You relying to heavily on 2 guys not spreading the love to 4 studs.

    Pollard and austin are studs against any te on this roster for 6+ years. He just dont get any snaps. same w beasely
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
  17. OmerV

    OmerV Well-Known Member

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    Obviously all 32 disagree with you. There clearly are times an extra blocker is needed if an OT is having a hard time, or against a blitz or if playing against an elite pass rusher. And even when they run pass patterns TE's often chip the pass rusher before running their pattern to give a little help.

    Again, you repeatedly show ignorance of the TE position, and insisting you know more about this than 32 NFL teams and their coaches doesn't help your case.

    It's hilarious that you point to the Oilers as an example of why an extra blocker at TE isn't needed, yet when you entered into this discussion you were blaming the Oilers failure to have success on not using TE's. Flip Flop …. Flip Flop … Flip Flop …. You change your take on things constantly.

    If you can't make a consistent coherent argument, and have to rely and changing your tune over and over to sustain an argument, you have no case.

    And, again, you are making false statements about the use of the TE's. The Cowboys do not use a starting duel TE system. They do use duel TE's at times - about 25% of the time. That's all. They use a slot receiver a lot more than they use a 2nd TE.

    By the way, AUSTIN IS NOT ON THE TEAM RIGHT NOW. lol - do you not get that? Hell, he was discarded by the Rams, and now it appears he is being discarded by the Cowboys, yet you are calling him a stud. At least you are good for a chuckle.
     
  18. CowboysExchange

    CowboysExchange Active Member

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    I use the Oilers as an example of a one dimensional scheme like ours. One that never carried a te on their Roster but still went to the playoffs for 10 straight years. Our scheme has been 8-8 regularly cuz they dont have any firepower. What good is that chip block and that dual te formation when it nets ya 8-8 and 4 tds a year against scrubs when the defender slips on a bananna peel?

    You dont know squat about tes. They are supposed to use their stature and skillsets to score. Unfortunately ours never do at the playoff level if they even get there. Lol.

    Great tes draw top defenders and double and triple teams. Our tes cant even produce against containment coverage thats how much they suck. We need weapons and firepower and these old school tes have no sauce. Whats worse is we two of these scrubs on passing downs regularly which forces the other 4 guys to do ALL OF THE SCORING! THERE IS NO DEPTH AT SCORING.

    That sorry one dimensional Run n shoot scheme you talk about is still better than this scheme w the talent weve had at te for 10 years. They went to the playoffs for 10 straight yrs pretty much and never even used a te or a fb. They never even had a top running back either. Lol. The dual te passing scheme is ignorant. If is wasnt trash we'd have a decade of success. We have 1 playoff td by a te in 15 years and we LOST THE GAME. How successful is that? These tes produce rushing champs but not passing champs or winners.

    Our dual te scheme is garbage. Come playoff time it cant beat anybody according to our record and stats. Witten included. He was washed up for 6+ years. Those 3 yard catches on 3rd and 10 led to LOSING NOT WINNING.

    LETS TALK ABOUT WINNING. NOT BLOCKING OR LOSING. WE ONLY PLAY THE GIANTS 2 TIMES A YEAR NOT ALL 16 GAMES. LMAO
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020 at 10:06 AM
  19. OmerV

    OmerV Well-Known Member

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    lol - you are still missing a LOT of things.

    One thing is we have a NEW COACH, and one who is offensive minded and has developed his own offenses, yet you are still arguing about the old scheme as if nothing has changed. Did you miss all of that?

    Another is that the Cowboys have, through most of the last decade, been one of the higher scoring offenses in the NFL, yet you claim they have had no firepower.

    Another is that last year was the first 8-8 season in the last 6 years, so those 8-8 seasons are mostly you still living in the past, just like how you keep talking about Swaim and Witten, who aren't even with the team anymore.

    And, still, another is that you have not shown anything other than a complete ignorance of the role of the TE, of what the Cowboys actually do with the TE, and of what teams around the NFL do with a TE. All you have shown is a fantasy football mentality without any concept of how the roles and responsibilities of each position fit together.
     
  20. CowboysExchange

    CowboysExchange Active Member

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    You take kc and put blake jarwin and Jason Witten and give them the same snaps and Kc will go 8-8 bro.

    No team is going anywhere w a bunch of scrub receivers at te dominating passing snaps.

    A steak at every skilled position might overcome 1 sorry te but it wont overcome 2 scrubs.

    You may like using the horse in chess but its never gonna beat the queen.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020 at 10:19 AM

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