Troy Smith

[ABQCOWBOY]

And who are you to say what should go into Troy Smith's
evaluation

Beck and Zabronsky performances hypothetical or real will have no bearing on where Troy Smith should be taken.

Troy Smiths body of work will speak for it's self. Same goes for Beck and Zabronsky. Their body of work will determine where they fall.


It is not a fact, because whose to say that Beck or Zabronsky were good enough or talented enough to lead the very talent Buckeyes team.

Whose to say the'd have what it takes to elevate their game to the level of Ginn or Gonzales?

The REAL FACTS are Troy Smith was good enough to find his talented teammates and he shouldn't be penalized because of some hypothetical theory that Beck or Zabronsky could possibly duplicate his abilities and success.

Do you finally see the absurdity of your statement?

Not to mention that QBs of similar measuragble with much less success have gone on to have very good careers in the NFL, without he benefit of playing a Pro Style offense on the collegiate level.

So when you post that Beck or Zabronsky would fair just as well or better than Troy Smith Quaterbacking the Buckeyes, I am supposed to know that what you are really saying is that he'll (Troy) take longer to develop as a QB on the next level?????? Especially when the post wa sin reply to another poster pointing out the absurdity of Chris Leak falling in the draft... oooooooookay!!!! That must be some code. I agree I am clueless. I guess.

Anyway, even after clarification your point is still moot. You have no way of really knowing the development curve of any QB going into the NFL.

I have one FACT that you can't dispute......HISTORY!!!

In actuallity, you have no facts. Why, because you are presuming that this is my evaluation. It, in fact is not. The comparisons will happen by NFL teams. There scouts are going to evaluate those things. This whole post is flawed because you fail to realize that this is not my personal evaluation but circumstances in which every Pro team will use to evaluate Smith.

 

[McCordsville Cowboy]

And Purdue DID run a pro style offense?

Drew Brees threw the ball anywhere from 35-50 times a game, ran 4-5 WR sets and had no running game. He put up big numbers in the Big 10 and didn't have a great arm.

I am surprised he has done as much as he has, considering he was a short guy with a big mole on his face in my CHEM 151 class.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

And Purdue DID run a pro style offense?

No, I think that to say Brees played in a Pro Style offense while at Purdue might be inaccurate. However, he did play in a system that featured a Pro Style passing game. Multiple receivers running more of a Pro Style route design is probably more accurate. IE, the QB (Brees) has more responsability to read routes, check off proprerly and just more basic experience at throwing the football make him more ready for the NFL then is Smith IMO. The passing game at Ohio is not overly complicated. This is not a knock on Smith. It is simply how I see both players at simular points in there careers.

 

[Charles]

Well, I have little interest in arguing with you. Your evaluation of Smith in comparison to Brees is somewhat inflated IMO.

Why?

Because you think Brees was the most ready QB coming out of college the year he came out. Well if you say so then I guess it's FACT.

Brees was, IMO, the most ready QB coming out of college the year he came out and really, one of the most ready players coming out at QB period.

Exactly what proof or statisitcal measure do you have to prove this point other than your opinion. Known whatsoever.

In 2001, Brees was the second QB taken. He was the 32 player taken over all. In any other year, that would have been a 1st rd pick but in 2001, it was the 1st pick of the 2nd rd. Brees actually held a 1st round grade on most boards but because of his size and questions about his arm strength, he slipped to the second round. That year was a particularly good year, talent wise, for the Draft. Vick was the first and only QB taken in the 1st rd. At this point, I think you'd have to say that Brees has proven to be a better QB then has Vick.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

The facts are NO team drafted him in the 1st RD and I doubt he fell into the
2nd RD because scouts and GMs thought that other QBs taken in the draft like Quincy Carter, Chris Weinke or Sage Rosenfel could have has similar or better success at Purdue. He was slotted based on his merits, it doesn't matter that it could have been a 1st RD pick the year before.

The facts remain that 100% of the teams passed on Brees in the 1st RD. Your opinion didn't carry any merit at the time.

Inhindsight that draft was very poor at the QB position which is better refelction of where Brees fell. The drop off from Vick was very evident.

Brees had a better season last year, but he has not proven to be a better QB that Vick. Vick Quarterbacked his team into the play-offs in Year 2, Not to mention a impressive play-off victory in Lambeau Field, followed by a trip to teh Championship game in year 4.

Brees might be the flavor of the month because he's had more success recently, but he hasn't yet proven to be better than Michael Vick, whom has more success Quarterbacking his teams when it counts the most.

BTW, LT was also taken in that draft and was a rookie the year Brees joined the Chargers.

I bet Vick wished he had the luxury of handing off to arguably 2 of the greatest RBs this side of Emmitt Smith.

Vick/LaDanian or Vick/ Bush-Mcalister. Yep Drew Breess was definately the most ready QB

What did the Chargers think of Brees? Lets see, the thought enough of him to start him in his second season. A season in which he Threw for over 3200 yards, posted a 60.8 completion percentage and threw 17 TDs against 16 INTs, all in his first year starting.

So what. I'll assume the Texans, Lions and Bengals all had the same line of thinking. No one ever knows how these guys will fair.

Now, you might say that San Diego didn't have confidence in him and perhaps that might be true but to me, that's a problem with San Diego's front office and coaching staff at the time.

You have a problem with the a front office that saw more upside in drafting Rivers. The same Rivers that QB his team to a 14-2 record. A QB that improved the offenses scoring prodution from 5th the previous year to 1st. Could it be the threat of Rivers abilities made a HOF RB even more threatening?

That kind of production is more then respectable, IMO, for a young QB in his first starting season. I wonder, do you see Smith starting 16 games in the NFL in his second year? Do you see Smith being evaluated as the 2nd best QB in the draft this year? Does he hold a 1st rd grade as did Brees in 2001? Do you think he will be a 2nd rd pick this year?

So what??? History has shown that it doesn't really matter where the QB is drafted. If the coaching staff believe in his abilities and a good player will rise to the top.

Stating whether or not Troy Smith carries a 1st or 2nd RD grade will have no bearing on his NFL future. You can't argue with History. He might not be given a chance early like p high draft picks , but Smith's evaluation will not affect teh player he's destined to be. This isn't an exact science.

In short, why are we having this discussion?

My guess is because you are not looking at this thing objectively but if you would rather say that it is I who doesn't know my arse from a hole in the ground, then OK. I can live with that.

okay you don't know your arse from a hole in the ground: atleast when it comes to assuming QBs development.

 

[Charles]

In actuallity, you have no facts. Why, because you are presuming that this is my evaluation. It, in fact is not. The comparisons will happen by NFL teams. There scouts are going to evaluate those things. This whole post is flawed because you fail to realize that this is not my personal evaluation but circumstances in which every Pro team will use to evaluate Smith.

This is ridiculous.

You stated that Troy Smith position in the draft will be affect by Beck and Zabronsky because NFL teams will look into whether or not Beck or Zabronsky (other QBs inthe draft) could perform similarly or better on the Buckeyes team.:laugh2:

Actually, I did not infere anything. I flat said it. You can not know if a Beck or a Zabransky would not have done just as well or better. This is what goes into the evaluation of where Smith should be taken

This an absurd statement.

Troy Smith was a QB of a great collegiate football team because he had the talents to play there. Beck and Zabronsky didn't.

The same argument can be made that Beck and Zabransky were effective or looked more polished because they played against inferior opponents and didn't not face the the type of pressure associated with being the best team in college football until the Championship game.

Last year folks tried to sell Aaron Rogers because he was coached by a NFL guy in college, but it's become quite apparent that seeing Pro style looks in college don't necessarily give you an edge.

Your logic is flawed and quite frankly I doubt any sensible front office will use that criteria. They will rank the players based on their merits and how they fit into their system.

 

[Charles]

No, I think that to say Brees played in a Pro Style offense while at Purdue might be inaccurate. However, he did play in a system that featured a Pro Style passing game. Multiple receivers running more of a Pro Style route design is probably more accurate. IE, the QB (Brees) has more responsability to read routes, check off proprerly and just more basic experience at throwing the football make him more ready for the NFL then is Smith IMO. The passing game at Ohio is not overly complicated. This is not a knock on Smith. It is simply how I see both players at simular points in there careers.

Yet a RB masquerading as a QB, in Vick,whom was taken the same year was able to lead his team deep into the play-offs with much less talented support in less the time it took Brees to latch on to 2 HOF caliber RBs.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Yet a RB masquerading as a QB, in Vick,whom was taken the same year was able to lead his team deep into the play-offs with much less talented support in less the time it took Brees to latch on to 2 HOF caliber RBs.

I'm going to excuse this post because I can see you are confused.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Why?

Because you think Brees was the most ready QB coming out of college the year he came out. Well if you say so then I guess it's FACT.

Exactly what proof or statisitcal measure do you have to prove this point other than your opinion. Known whatsoever.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

The facts are NO team drafted him in the 1st RD and I doubt he fell into the
2nd RD because scouts and GMs thought that other QBs taken in the draft like Quincy Carter, Chris Weinke or Sage Rosenfel could have has similar or better success at Purdue. He was slotted based on his merits, it doesn't matter that it could have been a 1st RD pick the year before.

The facts remain that 100% of the teams passed on Brees in the 1st RD. Your opinion didn't carry any merit at the time.

Inhindsight that draft was very poor at the QB position which is better refelction of where Brees fell. The drop off from Vick was very evident.

Brees had a better season last year, but he has not proven to be a better QB that Vick. Vick Quarterbacked his team into the play-offs in Year 2, Not to mention a impressive play-off victory in Lambeau Field, followed by a trip to teh Championship game in year 4.

Brees might be the flavor of the month because he's had more success recently, but he hasn't yet proven to be better than Michael Vick, whom has more success Quarterbacking his teams when it counts the most.



I bet Vick wished he had the luxury of handing off to arguably 2 of the greatest RBs this side of Emmitt Smith.

Vick/LaDanian or Vick/ Bush-Mcalister. Yep Drew Breess was definately the most ready QB

So what. I'll assume the Texans, Lions and Bengals all had the same line of thinking. No one ever knows how these guys will fair.


You have a problem with the a front office that saw more upside in drafting Rivers. The same Rivers that QB his team to a 14-2 record. A QB that improved the offenses scoring prodution from 5th the previous year to 1st. Could it be the threat of Rivers abilities made a HOF RB even more threatening?


So what??? History has shown that it doesn't really matter where the QB is drafted. If the coaching staff believe in his abilities and a good player will rise to the top.

Stating whether or not Troy Smith carries a 1st or 2nd RD grade will have no bearing on his NFL future. You can't argue with History. He might not be given a chance early like p high draft picks , but Smith's evaluation will not affect teh player he's destined to be. This isn't an exact science.

okay you don't know your arse from a hole in the ground: atleast when it comes to assuming QBs development.

In the end, you are still where you were at when we started. Lets just say that we will see where Smith gets taken and how successful he will become. I am confident in my view and you in yours. Rather then going round and round trying to explain it to you, lets just see what happens. If you are correct, he will succeed regardless. If you are not, I'm certain you will step forward like the man you are and admit it.

Lets see what happens.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

This is ridiculous.

You stated that Troy Smith position in the draft will be affect by Beck and Zabronsky because NFL teams will look into whether or not Beck or Zabronsky (other QBs inthe draft) could perform similarly or better on the Buckeyes team.:laugh2:



This an absurd statement.

Troy Smith was a QB of a great collegiate football team because he had the talents to play there. Beck and Zabronsky didn't.

The same argument can be made that Beck and Zabransky were effective or looked more polished because they played against inferior opponents and didn't not face the the type of pressure associated with being the best team in college football until the Championship game.

Last year folks tried to sell Aaron Rogers because he was coached by a NFL guy in college, but it's become quite apparent that seeing Pro style looks in college don't necessarily give you an edge.

Your logic is flawed and quite frankly I doubt any sensible front office will use that criteria. They will rank the players based on their merits and how they fit into their system.

More of the same. Lets see what happens. I trust you to be the upstanding poster we all know you to be. I trust you will do the right thing. Besides, I'm tired of trying to explain it to you. Better for us to just wait and see what happens.

 

[burmafrd]

I cannot take seriously anyone who cannot see that Brees is a better pro QB then Vick.

 

[McCordsville Cowboy]

I cannot take seriously anyone who cannot see that Brees is a better pro QB then Vick.

I can not take anyone seriously in this forum that doesn't have an avatar.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I can not take anyone seriously in this forum that doesn't have an avatar.

McCord, sounds as if you had ample opportunity to watch Brees at length. Correct me if my view of Brees is inaccurate. During his college days at Purdue, was he fundementally prepared for the NFL passing game as a college player is likely to get? I mean, not saying the most ready player you've ever seen. Just asking if he was more ready then most or not? If I'm completely in left field, say it and I will respectfully abide. This is just how I remember Brees coming out in 01. And actually, I thought he might have played better in his Soph. and Jr. years then he did in his Sr. year.

 

[Bleu Star]

Doug Flutie: Height 5' 10"

Troy Smith: Height 6' 1"

Yeah... Flutie never enjoyed a career in the NFL.

Return to the NFL

[edit] Buffalo Bills

Doug Flutie became the Buffalo Bills' starting quarterback when the Bills started the 1998 season 1-3. In his first start as a Bill, he passed for two TDs and led a fourth-quarter comeback against the Indianapolis Colts on October 11, 1998. The following week, Flutie scored the winning touchdown against the Jacksonville Jaguars by rolling out on a naked bootleg and into the end zone on fourth-down play with 13 seconds left. The Bills' success continued with Flutie at the helm; his record as a starter that season was 8-3. The Bills were eliminated in the first round by the Dolphins, as fumbles and - some fans say - questionable officiating gave Flutie his first, and only, loss against both Jimmy Johnson and Dan Marino. Flutie was selected to play in the 1998 Pro Bowl.

Flutie led the Bills to a 10-5 record in 1999 but, in a controversial decision, was replaced by Rob Johnson for the playoffs by coach Wade Phillips, who later said he had permission from Bills owner Ralph Wilson to do so. The Bills lost 22-16 to the eventual AFC Champion Tennessee Titans in a game that has become known for the Music City Miracle, where the Titans scored on the final play of the game - a kickoff return following the Bills' apparent game-clinching field goal. After the season had ended, Flutie was named the Bills' backup and only played late in games or when Johnson was injured, which was often. In fact during the season, Flutie had a 4-1 record as a starter, in comparison to Johnson's 4-7. Following the season, Bills President Tom Donahoe and head coach Greg Williams decided to keep Johnson as the starter and cut Flutie.

[edit] San Diego Chargers

In 2001 Flutie signed with the San Diego Chargers, who had gone 1-15 in 2000. After opening 3-0, the Chargers slumped and were 4-2 going into Week 7, when Flutie's Chargers met Rob Johnson's Bills. Johnson took advantage of the weak Charger defense and passed for 310 yards with 1 TD and 1 interception, and he ran for 67 yards and 1 TD. (The Chargers are the only team against which Johnson has passed for 300 yards.) But Flutie prevailed as the new ex-Bill broke a sack attempt and ran 13 yards for the game-winning touchdown. San Diego finished 5-11 on the season, while the Bills finished 3-13. Flutie was Drew Brees' backup in 2002.

In 2003, Flutie replaced a struggling Brees when the Chargers were 1-7. The 41-year-old Flutie became the oldest player to score two rushing touchdowns in a game, the first player over 40 to accomplish that feat. He also became the oldest AFC Offensive Player of the Week, winning the award for the fourth time. Flutie's record as a starter that year was 2-3. Flutie was released from the Chargers on March 13, 2005.

[edit] New England Patriots

Flutie surprised many when he signed with the New England Patriots instead of the New York Giants. He became the backup behind Tom Brady and played several times at the end of games to take a few snaps. Flutie has a 37-28 record as an NFL starter, including a 22-9 record in home games.

Referring to his time in the Canadian Football League, television football commentator John Madden once said, "Inch for inch, Flutie in his prime was the best QB of his generation."

In a December 26, 2005 game against the New York Jets, Flutie was sent in late in the game. The Jets also sent in their back-up quarterback, Vinny Testaverde. This was the first time in NFL history that two quarterbacks over the age of 40 competed (Testaverde was 42, Flutie was 43). It is also worth noting that this was the final nationally televised Monday Night Football game on ABC before its move to ESPN.
Flutie's historic drop kick
Flutie's historic drop kick

In the Patriots' regular-season finale against the Miami Dolphins on January 1, 2006, Flutie successfully drop kicked a football for an extra point, something that had not been done in a regular-season NFL game since 1941. The ball went straight through the uprights for the extra point. It was Flutie's first kick attempt in the NFL. Patriots head coach and football historian Bill Belichick made comments that suggested that the play was a retirement present of sorts for his veteran quarterback, although Flutie had made no comment on whether or not 2005 would be his last season [9].

During the 2006 offseason, Flutie's agent, Kristen Kuliga, stated he was interested in returning to the Patriots for another season; as a result he was widely expected to return, despite his age. But on May 15, 2006, Flutie announced his decision to "hang up his helmet" at the age of 43 and retire [10].

Link...

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Doug Flutie: Height 5' 10"

Troy Smith: Height 6' 1"

Yeah... Flutie never enjoyed a career in the NFL.

I doubt very seriously if Smith is 6'1 but I could easily be wrong.

 

[Bleu Star]

I doubt very seriously if Smith is 6'1 but I could easily be wrong.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=133648

BSPN has been known to "stretch" the truth though so take it as you will.