Trysten Hill

atlantacowboy

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I wasn't blaming Jones. But he was a developmental player we drafted for SPARQ. Jerry trying to hit upside.

I see our DT rotation as Collins, Woods, Crawford, Hill, with Hill maybe getting 20% snaps. We've been in worse shape, and often. Usually, in fact.
Going developmental at DT made sense this year, as we've got our clear starters in Collins and Woods, our clear rotational pass rusher in Crawford, and don't need that many snaps out of the rookie. Next year is when we need snaps when Collins leaves. Hence, developmental. This way we're getting more in the future when we need it, if we made the right call on Hill.

We have one of the 5 worst DT tackle rotations in the NFL. That whole group is predicated on cheap contracts and Marinelli getting them to play above their pay grade.
 

CalPolyTechnique

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One, part of Jones’ development “delay” was because our front office and DC played him at the wrong position for a few years. That’s not on Jones, that’s on Marinelli and others.

Two, if Hill was seen as a developmental guy, then the Cowboys screwed up not bringing in a good veteran DT besides Covington.

It’s just continued mismanagement at DT year after year.

I hope Hill develops but man it will suck if he bombs out and Thornhill becomes a stud.

How so?

Collins and Hill effectively play the same position (3-tech). In the recent past the Cowboys have miscast Collins putting him at the 1T partly due to necessity because of injuries, but Collins strong rookie season was at the 3T.
 

Hennessy_King

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He was an unwanted retread that ended up saving Marinelli and the Cowboys *** last year. Think of the shape the team would be in without him. Not saying he's a great player, but saying that this defensive line coach and by extension the team totally undervalues the position. And compared to what they would have had, Woods was a gift.
He's an ok player, but again very replaceable if they actually put some resources into the position.
 

Hennessy_King

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How so?

Collins and Hill effectively play the same position (3-tech). In the recent past the Cowboys have miscast Collins putting him at the 1T partly due to necessity because of injuries, but Collins strong rookie season was at the 3T.
Worst coaching move I've seen in a long time was moving Collins to 1T after a 5 sack rookie season at 3T. I mean just sign a body for the 1T if you need injury depth don't move a guy that has had success. I can't believe Marinelli still has a job.
 

Sydla

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How so?

Collins and Hill effectively play the same position (3-tech). In the recent past the Cowboys have miscast Collins putting him at the 1T partly due to necessity because of injuries, but Collins strong rookie season was at the 3T.

If Hill isn't ready to contribute this year, wouldn't this team look a lot better with a guy like McCoy and Collins rotating at the 3T? Hill is the 3rd strong 3T and is ready for 2020 when McCoy would likely have likely been jettisoned in FA. And while Collins is good at the 3T, he's not great and also has the foot injury issues. If he goes down again, we are screwed at the 3T, unless Hill somehow finds himself.

Plus, this staff still likes to play Collins at the 1T from time to time too.

I firmly believe this team could have used a better vet acquisition at DT.
 

Stash

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He's an ok player, but again very replaceable if they actually put some resources into the position.

Yes.

But that's the point.

The would, stupid, ridiculous, infuriating, point.

This team doesn't.

Despite how it continues to haunt them, hurt them, and ultimately get them bounced from the playoffs. They keep sticking with the same failed plan.
 

Sydla

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Worst coaching move I've seen in a long time was moving Collins to 1T after a 5 sack rookie season at 3T. I mean just sign a body for the 1T if you need injury depth don't move a guy that has had success. I can't believe Marinelli still has a job.

Total move out of necessity because Marinelli convinced the team they could get by with slop at the 1T. Then when some guys sucked and we had injuries (Paea), they had no choice.

Like you, it's perplexing they keep this guy around. His effectiveness has run it's course.
 

CalPolyTechnique

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If Hill isn't ready to contribute this year, wouldn't this team look a lot better with a guy like McCoy and Collins rotating at the 3T? Hill is the 3rd strong 3T and is ready for 2020 when McCoy would likely have likely been jettisoned in FA. And while Collins is good at the 3T, he's not great and also has the foot injury issues. If he goes down again, we are screwed at the 3T, unless Hill somehow finds himself.

Plus, this staff still likes to play Collins at the 1T from time to time too.

I firmly believe this team could have used a better vet acquisition at DT.

Sure, but you’re saying names (eg. McCoy) without context.

This team still hasn’t signed its Big 3 and also has other key players (Byron Jones) that have to be considered.

With that in mind, where does Gerald McCoy and his $10.4M (+ $2.5M) contract in 2019 leave the Cowboys?

Obviously, it looks like the Cowboys are banking on Collins as the starter (and contract season) and a guy like Hill rotating in as a viable and cheaper alternative.

Let the preseason play out and see where the kid is at.
 

Sydla

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Sure, but you’re saying names (eg. McCoy) without context.

This team still hasn’t signed its Big 3 and also has other key players (Byron Jones) that have to be considered.

With that in mind, where does Gerald McCoy and his $10.4M (+ $2.5M) contract in 2019 leave the Cowboys?

Obviously, it looks like the Cowboys are banking on Collins as the starter (and contract season) and a guy like Hill rotating in as a viable and cheaper alternative.

Let the preseason play out and see where the kid is at.

McCoy on a one year deal doesn't really prevent the Cowboys from doing anything in terms of their big three. They could create the space needed if they had to, and McCoy's contract would have only been a one year deal and he would be off the books for 2020.

If this team was serious about being a SB contender, IMO, they needed to beef up the DT spot more than they have IMO, especially if people are now trying to sell Hill as not an immediate impact guy, but rather a guy who needs development and might be ready to really play in a year or two.

I have been consistent on this for years. I don't like the way they go about building the DT position in the way Marinelli wants it.
 

Stash

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Sure, but you’re saying names (eg. McCoy) without context.

This team still hasn’t signed its Big 3 and also has other key players (Byron Jones) that have to be considered.

With that in mind, where does Gerald McCoy and his $10.4M (+ $2.5M) contract in 2019 leave the Cowboys?

Obviously, it looks like the Cowboys are banking on Collins as the starter (and contract season) and a guy like Hill rotating in as a viable and cheaper alternative.

Let the preseason play out and see where the kid is at.

Where are you getting your McCoy numbers from?

https://overthecap.com/player/gerald-mccoy/1811/
 

Sydla

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Admittedly, I am bit crazed about the DT position and the DL, overall.
 

CalPolyTechnique

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It's $8 million. $8 million easily funded by jettisoning Crawford.

Wouldn’t Crawford count $10.1 against the 2019 cap?

https://overthecap.com/player/tyrone-crawford/664/

Either way, jettisoning Crawford and signing McCoy don’t negate each other cap wise. Rather, it would have a compounding impact.

Cutting Crawford would count something substantial against this year’s cap and signing McCoy to a short term deal would require front loading a lot of money this season.
 

Sydla

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Now in fairness to my McCoy rant, there were some reports that when cut he was looking to jump to a divisional team so he could face Tampa twice. So there is the possibility the Cowboys never could have gotten him even if they really had wanted him.
 

Stash

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Now in fairness to my McCoy rant, there were some reports that when cut he was looking to jump to a divisional team so he could face Tampa twice. So there is the possibility the Cowboys never could have gotten him even if they really had wanted him.

He made visits to both Cleveland and Baltimore, so evidence does not support any talk that he was "locked in" on staying within the division. The fact is that the Cowboys showed no interest.
 

xwalker

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No.

Read the dead money and cap savings columns. $4.2 dead money but a savings of almost $6 million which takes care of 3/4ths of McCoy's contract. A missed opportunity.
You linked to his old Tampa contract, I believe. That ran through 2021.

When they cut him, he signed a one year deal in Carolina for $8MM.

McCoy in 2018 cost 8M.

The cost to keep vs cut Tyrone Crawford is 7M.
- It does not matter about "cap savings" or dead-money.
- There will be 7M added to the Cowboys cap over all years if Crawford is on the roster in 2019 vs if he is not on the roster in 2019.

I would take McCoy at 8M over Crawford at 7M.
- However, Crawford is projected to DE, not DT for 2019.
- Crawford made all 14 of his starts in 2017 at DE.
- Crawford made 8 starts at DT in 2018 while Collins missed some games and got back to 100%.
- When Collins was back to near 100%, Crawford moved back to DE for 7 starts there.

I think at the time McCoy was available, the Cowboys (Stephen Jones) were hopeful that they could cut Crawford after training camp if other players worked out.

The acquisition of Hyder and Covington along with the plan to draft a DT appears to correspond with a plan to cut Crawford if possible.

In that case it was comparing 8M for McCoy to Zero (if Crawford cut).


The Likely DL plan back in the Spring:
- The plan was Collins & Hill taking most of the 3-tech DT snaps.
- Woods as the staring 1-tech DT.
- Covington as a better 4th DT than they had last year.
- Quinn as the starting RDE.
- Hyder as the 3rd or 4th DE that can move to DT when needed.

At this point the Quinn suspension and slow progress for Hill likely keep Crawford on the roster.

There is still a chance that Stephen Jones can't stomach paying 7M to Crawford if he is not a full time starter.
  • The conditions for that to happen:
    • Hyder & Armstong & Taco: Up to the task of manning the RDE spot for 2 games.
    • Hyder: Up to the task of playing some snaps at DE to limit Hill's exposure.
    • Covington: Up to the task of performing better than the 4th DT last year.
    • Hill: Up to the task of playing about 30% of the 3-tech DT snaps.
 

Stash

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McCoy in 2018 cost 8M.

The cost to keep vs cut Tyrone Crawford is 7M.
- It does not matter about "cap savings" or dead-money.
- There will be 7M added to the Cowboys cap over all years if Crawford is on the roster in 2019 vs if he is not on the roster in 2019.

I would take McCoy at 8M over Crawford at 7M.
- However, Crawford is projected to DE, not DT for 2019.
- Crawford made all 14 of his starts in 2017 at DE.
- Crawford made 8 starts at DT in 2018 while Collins missed some games and got back to 100%.
- When Collins was back to near 100%, Crawford moved back to DE for 7 starts there.

And lining him up there is an embarrassing waste. Take a look at how many sacks Crawford has against starting offensive tackles from RDE over the past two years. I'll save you the trouble, it rhymes with hero.

Any mention of Crawford at defensive end is this team tying one arm behind its back. He is a total liability there. Go back and watch him getting bashed all game long against the Rams. It's a disgrace.

I think at the time McCoy was available, the Cowboys (Stephen Jones) were hopeful that they could cut Crawford after training camp if other players worked out.

The acquisition of Hyder and Covington along with the plan to draft a DT appears to correspond with a plan to cut Crawford if possible.

In that case it was comparing 8M for McCoy to Zero (if Crawford cut).


The Likely DL plan back in the Spring:
- The plan was Collins & Hill taking most of the 3-tech DT snaps.
- Woods as the staring 1-tech DT.
- Covington as a better 4th DT than they had last year.
- Quinn as the starting RDE.
- Hyder as the 3rd or 4th DE that can move to DT when needed.

At this point the Quinn suspension and slow progress for Hill likely keep Crawford on the roster.

There is still a chance that Stephen Jones can't stomach paying 7M to Crawford if he is not a full time starter.
  • The conditions for that to happen:
    • Hyder & Armstong & Taco: Up to the task of manning the RDE spot for 2 games.
    • Hyder: Up to the task of playing some snaps at DE to limit Hill's exposure.
    • Covington: Up to the task of performing better than the 4th DT last year.
    • Hill: Up to the task of playing about 30% of the 3-tech DT snaps.

I certainly think that between the three, Hyder, Armstrong, or even Taco can Man the RDE spot for two games. And who knows? One of them might actually get you a sack or two there?

I very much hope you are right on this talk of a potential cut, but I'll believe it when I see it. This team gets all too emotionally attached to its "team guys" and has trouble letting go, even when they very clearly should.

I hopefully await another Dan Bailey type show of guts, where a formerly sacred cow is ultimately sent packing.
 
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