UFC 116: Lesnar vs Carwin
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Ren
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Rampage;3452139 said:
Who else would be?
Fedor is coming off a loss he needs to at least beat a contender to be ranked #1 now and it's not even certain he'll fight again, he wants to get into Russian politics
I'm not denying his skill what i'm saying is his recent results don't warrant a #1 ranking
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guess we agree to disagree. also that Fedor and politics crap was just a rumor. Scott Coker also said Fedor vs Overeem is still a possibility. If Brock is the #1 HW(and I'm a huge Lesnar fan) than the hw still has a loooooooong way to go.Ren;3452163 said:
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this was taken from an article regarding the whole Fedor and his competition thing.
Of course, when those guys move on, as Andrei Arlovski did, exiting the UFC on a three-fight winning streak, then they become total nonentities.
Apparently it doesn't even matter that Arlovski added knockout victories over Ben Rothwell and Roy Nelson – the latter of whom is one win away from a UFC heavyweight title shot, according to White – before taking on Emelianenko. The mere fact that he was no longer a UFC fighter at the time seems to have made him worthless as an opponent by the time Emelianenko starched him in the first round.
It also doesn't seem to matter that Fedor was slated to take on Josh Barnett – then a top-five heavyweight – before Barnett's steroid debacle derailed the fight. Nor does it matter that not so long ago Emelianenko was aiming for a fight with Randy Couture – then the UFC heavyweight champ – before White and his team of lawyers put the kibosh on it.
Nope, all that matters is that Fedor won't fight the best. Though since the best are confined exclusively to the UFC, at least in White's mind, that's a little like criticizing Georges St. Pierre for fighting Dan Hardy instead of Jake Shields or Nick Diaz.
That's not to say that Emelianenko is beyond reproach. His record does feature such MMA punchlines as Hong Man Choi and Zuluzinho, with middleweight Matt Lindland sandwiched in there for good measure. And yes, his M-1 Global management team has at times seemed like a barrier between Fedor and the dream fights that fans want to see. There's no denying any of that.
At the same time, one surprising loss doesn't cancel out everything else he's accomplished in the sport. He beat Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic back when the Croatian (whose abilities White claims to respect now) was in his prime. He beat Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira twice. Doing so once, and against a declining version of the old "Minotauro," was enough to earn Cain Velasquez an impending title shot in the UFC.
And then there's Brock Lesnar and Shane Carwin, who have about half as many fights between the two of them as Emelianenko does in his storied career. Neither of them have faced the kind of steady diet of high-quality competition that Emelianenko did in his Pride days. At least not yet.
That's not a knock on them. They have, after all, faced the best available to them in the time available to them. But, with the possible exception of the Alistair Overeem bout, which still has yet to materialize, didn't Fedor do the same? Didn't he beat everyone he could possibly get in the ring with, and didn't he at least make an honest effort at getting in the ring with a few others?
Of course, when those guys move on, as Andrei Arlovski did, exiting the UFC on a three-fight winning streak, then they become total nonentities.
Apparently it doesn't even matter that Arlovski added knockout victories over Ben Rothwell and Roy Nelson – the latter of whom is one win away from a UFC heavyweight title shot, according to White – before taking on Emelianenko. The mere fact that he was no longer a UFC fighter at the time seems to have made him worthless as an opponent by the time Emelianenko starched him in the first round.
It also doesn't seem to matter that Fedor was slated to take on Josh Barnett – then a top-five heavyweight – before Barnett's steroid debacle derailed the fight. Nor does it matter that not so long ago Emelianenko was aiming for a fight with Randy Couture – then the UFC heavyweight champ – before White and his team of lawyers put the kibosh on it.
Nope, all that matters is that Fedor won't fight the best. Though since the best are confined exclusively to the UFC, at least in White's mind, that's a little like criticizing Georges St. Pierre for fighting Dan Hardy instead of Jake Shields or Nick Diaz.
That's not to say that Emelianenko is beyond reproach. His record does feature such MMA punchlines as Hong Man Choi and Zuluzinho, with middleweight Matt Lindland sandwiched in there for good measure. And yes, his M-1 Global management team has at times seemed like a barrier between Fedor and the dream fights that fans want to see. There's no denying any of that.
At the same time, one surprising loss doesn't cancel out everything else he's accomplished in the sport. He beat Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic back when the Croatian (whose abilities White claims to respect now) was in his prime. He beat Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira twice. Doing so once, and against a declining version of the old "Minotauro," was enough to earn Cain Velasquez an impending title shot in the UFC.
And then there's Brock Lesnar and Shane Carwin, who have about half as many fights between the two of them as Emelianenko does in his storied career. Neither of them have faced the kind of steady diet of high-quality competition that Emelianenko did in his Pride days. At least not yet.
That's not a knock on them. They have, after all, faced the best available to them in the time available to them. But, with the possible exception of the Alistair Overeem bout, which still has yet to materialize, didn't Fedor do the same? Didn't he beat everyone he could possibly get in the ring with, and didn't he at least make an honest effort at getting in the ring with a few others?
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Rampage;3452164 said:
Brock has beat 2 former ufc heavy weight champions and 2 interim heavy weight champions in those 6 fights.
Fedor has fought Tim Sylvia and Crop Top and about 30 other guys who Brock would beat the **** out of. And was beat by a European Jiu-Jitsu champion.
Ren
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zrinkill;3452185 said:
List of Former champions Fedor has beaten
Mark Coleman Former HW UFC champ, and 2 time UFC champ back when it was a tournament
Tim Silvia Former UFC HW champ
Arlovski Former UFC HW champ
Kevin Radleman Former UFC HW champ
Big Nog twice former Pride HW champ and interim UFC champ
Semmi Schilt 4 time K-1 world GP champ and 2 time K-1 Super heavy weight champ
Mark Hunt 2001 K-1 world GP champ
Crocop (in his prime) 2006 Pride open weight GP champion
This is only a small portion of Fedors carer, but somehow Brock's 5 wins are more impressive then this?
With the exception of Arlovski and Silvia Fedor beat most of these guys in their prime, your assumption that Brock could is purely wishful thinking, Brock has A LOT to prove still if he wants to be compared to the Greatest HW MMA fighter ever, lets see him go 5-6 years without losing first... (Fedor went 10)
:laugh2:
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Ren;3452240 said:
Who cares?
Nobody is saying Brock is as skilled as Fedor. Brock isn't even as skilled as Mir.
But if Brock and Fedor step in the cage, in a fight, Lesnar is going to win the fight unless Fedor gets a lucky submission somehow.
The fact that the 2 are so close right now and Lesnar still being extremely young in his career should tell you who the better fighter is.
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Jed_70;3450594 said:
I'm guessing you didn't love the 2nd round nearly as much.
zrinkill;3450600 said:
That's exactly what I said the moment he submited Carwin.
Don't get me wrong I really like Carwin to, he's fun to watch, but I was definately going for Brock in this fight.
Hoofbite;3450605 said:
Exactly.
Those folks wanting it stopped I can see why they did, they often do stop fights when a guy just lays there and covers up.
I think there is one small thing Brock did, however, that kept that from happening. A couple of times he simply reached up and grabbed at the arms, to try and stop some stuff, showing that he was intending to try and defend himself. I think that little bit of arm move kept the ref from every thinking about stopping it.
And heres the other thing. Instead of worrying about what the ref did wrong how about worrying about what Carwin did wrong. At that point it would have been to his advantage, since he clearly wasn't landing too many good shots to Lesnars head on the ground, and was mainly hitting Lesnars huge arms, to simply stand up and make Brock get back up.
Instead he tried to bull his way into a G&P victory and gassed himself.
Jed_70;3450608 said:
He used his size and strength to tighten that hold into the point where Carwin had to tap and to hold Carwin in the position in the first place.
But also credit a big part of that to Carwin being gassed as well. There is no doubt that Carwin gassed himself.
Smith22;3450614 said:
Brock is going to be tough for anyone and everyone who he gets on the ground and is on top of. He's just so big and strong that it will be very hard to control or stop Brock.
Hoofbite;3450615 said:
I think the Mir stuff was nothing more than because Mir talked so much junk prior to the fight, and pretty much disrespected Brock in every way possible. Saying he couldn't punch hard, couldn't hurt him, and even going so far as to stop during interviews to tell Brock he'd explain to him later what it was he's talking about since he doesn't know MMA.
Mir brought that reaction on by running his mouth. Brock didn't act like that toward Herring or Couture.
zrinkill;3450618 said:
I think that could be the case as well. I believe Carwin had his best shot Saturday and blew it. I can't imagine Brock will make any real attempt to stand with him in a second fight. He'll take a totally different approach and I think it would be even more troubling for Carwin.
BigWillie;3450619 said:How in the heck do you train under Greg Jackson and have the cardio of a 85 year old guy with emphysema?
One thing about it - if Shane ever gets his cardio down, no one, including Brock, wants a piece of that guy.
Brock was incredibly, incredibly lucky that fight did not get stopped. I know, he was covering up. But even still, that's a position where quite a few refs stop the fight because the fighter is not moving to intelligently defend himself. Just laying there absorbing punishment in one position is not defending yourself.
Another thing - Brock's striking showed as I assumed it would. Only one time did I see him even attempt to change a level, and it was half-hearted at that. Guy really, really needs to refine his striking because he will not always be as lucky as he was tonight. His ginormous head saved him tonight.
Cain and Brock is interesting. Cain is basically a 240lbs version of Carwin, except that Cain has shown he can go all day with his cardio. Can Cain somehow keep it off the ground? If he can, the fight becomes really, really interesting and will likely favor Cain.
Cain won't be able to keep it off the ground. He'll basically have the exact same trouble Mir did in keeping it off the ground, which is to say he can't.
Hostile;3450620 said:
Good post. I liked the humility as well.
CATCH17;3450647 said:
I think he's certainly one of the top 2 HWs in the world. I wouldn't argue against him at 1 but I can't say that I wouldn't give Werdum a serious look for that right now just based off the fact that he did beat the guy whose been the #1 HW for a long time. I wouldn't be opposed to some ranking Werdum #1.
DemonBlood;3450691 said:
I doubt that. The cardio isn't the only problem other fighters will have. There isn't anyone in the HW's in UFC right that is going to hit as hard as Carwin so they're likely not going to test his chin like anyone else. The other problem is that there aren't too many other HWs in the world that are as big as Carwin. Without that size, to stuff some take downs, the smaller guys are going to be taken down and thus completely take away their chance to catch him with their stand up striking.
DemonBlood;3450711 said:
If Lesnar hadn't reached up with his arms a couple of times I do think the ref might of stopped it. But by reaching up like that a couple of times, and then going back to covering up, and then reaching up, kept the ref from stopping it.
Carwin should have did the smart thing and got back up, made Brock get back up, and went after him then. Instead he gassed himself punching Brock's arms.
DemonBlood;3450722 said:
Saying now? That's exactly what he said in the post fight interview in the middle of the octagon. It has nothing to do with what he's saying now. What they posted up there were his comments immediately following the fight while still standing in the octagon.
CATCH17;3450767 said:
Cain will have a very difficult time for sure. As will any HW who isn't 270 pounds or bigger with great wrestling and takedown defense.
Hostile;3450795 said:
I thought it was the best way for him to put all of it after that. I found it very cool that he mentioned everything the way he did.
Rampage;3450855 said:
Exactly. Being that big if you just throw everything you've got for 3 solid minutes you're going to be pretty tired.
Ren;3450868 said:
How big are you? People can argue that all they want but size makes a huge difference in that stuff. It's very rare that anyone as big as those guys that can go all out like that and still not be gassed. That's a lot of mass for those guys to carry around and will gas a guy a heck of a lot quicker.
Ren;3450916 said:
This coming from the guy who just said Brock was the best in MMA
Shogun, as well as quite a few others in the LHW division, better fighters then Brock
Silva, MUCH better fighter then Brock
GSP, MUCH better fighter then Brock
Penn, even without a belt, much better fighter then Brock
Brock is the best HW in MMA right now but let's be real here some of these guys have more title defenses then Brock has fights, Brock has a long way to go before he's the best in the biz
Maybe the best HW right now, I can see people making others #1 as I said before, but I do agree that he isn't the best in MMA overall. There are several guys, and I agree with the guys you mentioned up there, who are much better PFP canidates and such, IMO.
Hostile;3450935 said:
Yeah that was really cool. The way Brock was smiling about it coming out. You could tell he was definately respectful and impressed with the power Carwin has and Carwin was impressed, probably shocked even, that Brock weathered all he had.
MarionBarberThe4th;3451918 said:
Not at all. He probably has more power than Fedor but Fedor is a much more skilled striker. That isn't even close, IMO.
BigWillie;3451944 said:
I get what you're saying but is that whole post intended to point out that Lesnar has flaws? I mean every fighter has flaws that can make them vulnerable and get them beat.
That fight with Randleman and Fedor was sick though. I've always thought that was pretty tough of Fedor to comeback from that slam and just quickly submit Randleman. That was impressive.
As for Tim and Arlovski you can count me out of the group that was ever impressed by them, especially Tim. I always, always, always thought Tim was a product of an extremely weak division at the time he was champ in UFC. He's an average, at best, fighter.
It's why I don't give Fedor much credit for those two wins. I wouldn't have given him much if he'd beaten either one of those two in their prime runs in UFC cause they were both extremely over-rated and average.
Tim even more so now is nothing so Fedor beating him just isn't impressive to me at this point.
Ren;3452240 said:
I can't imagine anyone is saying Fedor hasn't done great things over his career. No one, including myself, is saying that Fedor has never fought top flight competition, or never deserved to be number one, just that in the last few years he's not fought anything even remotely resembling what I'd consider top competition. To me his best competition was last fought in PRIDE and since it closed he hasn't fought anyone who'd crack the top 10 in the HW division in the last few years. Tim? He was a joke when he was in his prime. Arlovski? Way over hyped because he beat an extremely over hyped, and average, Tim Sylvia.
Brett Rogers? Please. The guy is barely a few steps above Kimbo slice. Werdum is the best, most respectable, fighter (IMO anyway) that he's fought since PRIDE closed down and he got beaten by him.
And I don't think Werdum is better than several other guys that Fedor could have been fighting if not for his trash partnership with that M-1 company.
I'd like to see Fedor win his next fight, get out of Strikeforce, and come over to UFC cause there are still several fights I'd like to see him have there that I still think, even with that loss for him recently, would be huge draws and great fights.
Ren
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CATCH17;3452256 said:
Fedor is much better on his feet then anyone Brock has faced including Carwin if Fedor where to land a clean shot on Brock the fight would be over. Fedor is the most accurate HW in MMA so when you consider that almost every fighter Brock has faced has been able to hit him Fedor wouldn't have to much trouble doing that either. Brock's only shot would be to get on top of Fedor and even then Fedor has proved time and time again he can escape just about anything
Skill wise they're not close at all. Brock is an extremely raw fighter at this point and with his still very glaring weaknesses he doesn't match up well with Fedor at all since it plays right into Fedors strengths
10 years of dominance vs 5 wins should tell you who the better fighter is. Brocks future looks a lot brighter then Fedors does but that has more to do with Fedor carer winding down and Brock just starting out.
As of right now Brock is just another in a long line of UFC champ, he's yet to prove he's any more special the a lot of the champs that came and went before him. it's not like he's re-writing history or anything with his 2 title defenses, many have done that and better before him. If he was to retire today he'd be nothing more then a footnote in MMA history, Brock has A LOT to prove still.
Brock reminds me a lot of Coleman back in the early days, Coleman looked unstoppable he had everyone beat on both size and power and was an excellent wrestler. Then along comes Maurice Smith a guy with a sub .500 carer record and made him look stupid, he was never the same after that.
A lot of people who have followed MMA for a long time are rightfully skeptical of him still because we've seen fighters with a lot of potential come and go before. Brock isn't threading any new ground, lots of fighters have done this before him. And a lot of them looked better then Brock has as well.
It's very hard to judge improvement with Brock because of his style but one thing is very clear, his standup hasn't improved much. That would worry me if i was a Brock fan. I can see him beating Velasquez but someone like Junior Dos Santos would give him a lot of problems.
That's the biggest difference between say a Fedor and Brock, Fedor doesn't really match up poorly with any style Brock does
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Everyone wants to see Brock/Fedor, I want to see Overreem/Brock. Brock's standup is atrocious and a world class kickboxer like Overreem wouldn't just tire himself out punching Brock's face like Carwin (basically a 1 trick pony and hardly a great overall fighter) did. Overreem just completely manhandled Rogers, who is the same size as Brock.
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Ren;3452371 said:
I doubt it. If Carwin can't knock him out than it would take a lucky punch from Fedor to do it.
Not arguing the Fedor isn't a better striker. He is the best technical heavyweight out there. But his striking isn't going to beat Brock.
It will just leave him open to get took down and beat.
Plus, Lesnar's Boxing may not be world class, but if he touches you than you're hitting the mat.
He has the mother of all right hands in MMA right now.
Ren
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zrinkill;3452379 said:
If anyone wants to compare him to some of the greats in the sport like you seem to want then 5 wins is not nearly enough, all personal feeling aside.
If/when he gets up to 10-15 fights and is still at the top then it's time to start that debate, until then Brock has a lot to prove if you want to put him next to the all time greats.
That's not me hating on Brock any non fanboy will tell you the exact same thing i am
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CATCH17;3452410 said:
Striking is exactly what's going to beat Brock his standup is not very good, no one is going to out wrestle him any time soon though unless king kong or Godzilla starts doing MMA.
Fedor is a much better striker then Carwin how much power each have in those shots is impossible to tell but accuracy can make up for power and Fedor is as accurate as it gets