Umpire was out of position

[DogFace]

Hiring younger guys isn't necessarily a remedy. You get to the pros working through the high school and college football ranks. In essence, it takes time to get to the pro level, which is why you don't see as many younger refs.

Youth can't replace experience, no matter how you try to force it. Pay doesn't replace experience either. You have to be on the field and work the game in order to develop experience. And TIME is a factor of experience.

As an aside, I have a friend who is a SEC ref. He started with high school football games. Took him about 5-7 years before he moved to the college level. He worked the "lower level" college games until he landed a spot with the SEC. He desires to be a NFL ref, but he has to put the years in.




First, that's not going to happen even if you pay referees.
Second, what do you expect to get from subjecting the refers to the press? A confession? No, you're not going to get that. And, really, that will only undermine the integrity of the game. The ideal is for the refs to be neutral. The more you subject them to public scrutiny, you INCREASE claims of bias, not reduce bias claims. Let people think what they want. You don't VALIDATE their opinions by feeding them. You want refs to be neutral so allegiances don't build among the fans. Furthermore, refs aren't supposed to be celebrities. Having them sit down and answer the press creates a forum to make refs more visible - too visible - to audiences just like athletes are. It sounds good, but I can see problems with this from jump street.
Third, mistakes happen. It's part of humanity. And, of course, if calls go against your team, you're more likely to feel that the refs cheated. But that's fandom, which is even more bias. You don't want to enhance that by making celebrities out of referees.
Fourth, again, the NFL has an internal review process. Refs who continually blow calls don't get to call certain games and if they're REALLY bad, they won't be refs for long. I think this is better because reffing is hard. You need to be one to fully understand. For six years, until I took a hiatus, was a community recreation league and high school league (private schools) baseball umpire. In no way am I on the level of a pro ref or umpire, but I understand how difficult it is from the inside. And I've noticed a few things:

1. Refs and umpires are trying to do the best they can.
2. Refs and umpires don't have time for bias. There have been kids and teams I know and like whose games I've had to call. When I'm trying to determine whether the catcher tags the runner coming home, I don't have time for bias. I'm trying to make the correct call.
3. Refs and umpires are under CONSTANT scrutiny from players, from coaches and from the public - all of whom think they know more than the referees and are ready to challenge them whenever a call goes against them. A lot of people can't take that type scrutiny. My wife often asks me why I do it because she cringes when I tell her some of the stories of how players, coaches and parents act towards umpires.
4. Refs and umpires have an inordinate amount of rules to learn. They have to know the game backwards and forwards, especially the higher up you go. Again, you learn by studying but you learn on-the-job. You learn how to deal with situations by going through those situations.


Answer how? What can be done with full-time refs that can't be done with part-time refs?
Second, you know what generally happens when people get punished for making mistakes? They make MORE mistakes. That's why the whole concept of positive reinforcement was developed.
If you tell someone, "Don't make this mistake again. Don't make this mistake again. Don't make this mistake again." Guess what's going to happen?
He's going to make the mistake AGAIN because you've reinforced "mistake" into his brain.
What corrects mistakes is TRAINING!.
If your offensive line continues to jump offsides, you don't keep saying, "Stop jumping offsides." Rather, you TRAIN them to move at the snap of the ball.
There's no better teacher than experience.
Now if by paying refs full-time, they get better training, then that's a good argument. But they're still going to have to apply that training to a real game. But that would apply to both part-time and full-time refs.

NFL refs are by far the worst in sports. Most sp

Hiring younger guys isn't necessarily a remedy. You get to the pros working through the high school and college football ranks. In essence, it takes time to get to the pro level, which is why you don't see as many younger refs.

Youth can't replace experience, no matter how you try to force it. Pay doesn't replace experience either. You have to be on the field and work the game in order to develop experience. And TIME is a factor of experience.

As an aside, I have a friend who is a SEC ref. He started with high school football games. Took him about 5-7 years before he moved to the college level. He worked the "lower level" college games until he landed a spot with the SEC. He desires to be a NFL ref, but he has to put the years in.




First, that's not going to happen even if you pay referees.
Second, what do you expect to get from subjecting the refers to the press? A confession? No, you're not going to get that. And, really, that will only undermine the integrity of the game. The ideal is for the refs to be neutral. The more you subject them to public scrutiny, you INCREASE claims of bias, not reduce bias claims. Let people think what they want. You don't VALIDATE their opinions by feeding them. You want refs to be neutral so allegiances don't build among the fans. Furthermore, refs aren't supposed to be celebrities. Having them sit down and answer the press creates a forum to make refs more visible - too visible - to audiences just like athletes are. It sounds good, but I can see problems with this from jump street.
Third, mistakes happen. It's part of humanity. And, of course, if calls go against your team, you're more likely to feel that the refs cheated. But that's fandom, which is even more bias. You don't want to enhance that by making celebrities out of referees.
Fourth, again, the NFL has an internal review process. Refs who continually blow calls don't get to call certain games and if they're REALLY bad, they won't be refs for long. I think this is better because reffing is hard. You need to be one to fully understand. For six years, until I took a hiatus, was a community recreation league and high school league (private schools) baseball umpire. In no way am I on the level of a pro ref or umpire, but I understand how difficult it is from the inside. And I've noticed a few things:

1. Refs and umpires are trying to do the best they can.
2. Refs and umpires don't have time for bias. There have been kids and teams I know and like whose games I've had to call. When I'm trying to determine whether the catcher tags the runner coming home, I don't have time for bias. I'm trying to make the correct call.
3. Refs and umpires are under CONSTANT scrutiny from players, from coaches and from the public - all of whom think they know more than the referees and are ready to challenge them whenever a call goes against them. A lot of people can't take that type scrutiny. My wife often asks me why I do it because she cringes when I tell her some of the stories of how players, coaches and parents act towards umpires.
4. Refs and umpires have an inordinate amount of rules to learn. They have to know the game backwards and forwards, especially the higher up you go. Again, you learn by studying but you learn on-the-job. You learn how to deal with situations by going through those situations.


Answer how? What can be done with full-time refs that can't be done with part-time refs?
Second, you know what generally happens when people get punished for making mistakes? They make MORE mistakes. That's why the whole concept of positive reinforcement was developed.
If you tell someone, "Don't make this mistake again. Don't make this mistake again. Don't make this mistake again." Guess what's going to happen?
He's going to make the mistake AGAIN because you've reinforced "mistake" into his brain.
What corrects mistakes is TRAINING!.
If your offensive line continues to jump offsides, you don't keep saying, "Stop jumping offsides." Rather, you TRAIN them to move at the snap of the ball.
There's no better teacher than experience.
Now if by paying refs full-time, they get better training, then that's a good argument. But they're still going to have to apply that training to a real game. But that would apply to both part-time and full-time refs.

I couldn’t disagree more with almost everything you said. Sorry.

Refs don’t have time for bias? They try to do their best?
Ok.

I feel people trusted with enforcing any rules should be held to a very high standard. In general, NFL refs are old and weak. We see unexplainably bad calls weekly all over the sport.

We can agree we won’t agree.

 

[OmerV]

Every year there's an excuse for Dak Prescott. There's an excuse for Zeke, or Amari, or the offensive line or the defense, or coaches, or this or that. I'm sick of it.

This is a nonsensical comment because nobody here has said those guys played well or that the refs are the reason the team lost. Nobody is saying the team was certain to win if the refs did a better job spotting the ball.

 

[tyke1doe]

Refs don’t have time for bias? They try to do their best?
Ok.

While calling plays, no, They don't have time for bias.
You're caught up in the moment, focused strictly on the play. Refs don't have time at that point to be thinking about bias.

Now, truth be told, where bias comes in is outside of the plays.

For example, I will have a coach chewing my ear off all game long. And as behind-the-plate umpire, a coach may want to challenge my call by appealing to the field umpire.
Some coaches go directly to the field umpire trying to show me up, bypassing my authority because the behind-the-plate umpire has to acknowledge the challenge.

Based on his attitude or disrespect, sometimes I don't allow the challenge or correct the coaches that the proper protocol is to appeal to the plate umpire and I, as the plate umpire, will decide whether I ask the field umpire's opinion.

At that point, I will rule "No, I'm not going to allow an appeal."

That's where bias comes in. But not during the plays.

I'm quite confident in my assessment, and it would be on the one making the accusation to prove it. And unless a ref confesses to bias, you can't prove it so, it exists only in your head.

 

[triplets_93]

Yup. And aliens killed JFK.

Posting again:

But the Cowboys are not that savvy. Blame the Coaching Staff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[glimmerman]

And if there is 4 seconds left. Does anyone think we score from there. I know . I know we could have gotten a PI and got it at the 1. Or a catch. But the way we played it was near impossible. But we should have had the opportunity..

 

[DogFace]

While calling plays, no, They don't have time for bias.
You're caught up in the moment, focused strictly on the play. Refs don't have time at that point to be thinking about bias.

Now, truth be told, where bias comes in is outside of the plays.

For example, I will have a coach chewing my ear off all game long. And as behind-the-plate umpire, a coach may want to challenge my call by appealing to the field umpire.
Some coaches go directly to the field umpire trying to show me up, bypassing my authority because the behind-the-plate umpire has to acknowledge the challenge.

Based on his attitude or disrespect, sometimes I don't allow the challenge or correct the coaches that the proper protocol is to appeal to the plate umpire and I, as the plate umpire, will decide whether I ask the field umpire's opinion.

At that point, I will rule "No, I'm not going to allow an appeal."

That's where bias comes in. But not during the plays.

I'm quite confident in my assessment, and it would be on the one making the accusation to prove it. And unless a ref confesses to bias, you can't prove it so, it exists only in your head.

Your experience is only your experience. It has no bearing on all ref’s general integrity, ability to be impartial, or ability to see things well. The nfl refs have plenty of evidence working against them.

That’s like saying because you have had great experiences with Burger King service that everyone does.

Again. We don’t agree. At all.

 

[tyke1doe]

Your experience is only your experience. It has no bearing on all ref’s general integrity, ability to be impartial, or ability to see things well. The nfl refs have plenty of evidence working against them.

That’s like saying because you have had great experiences with Burger King service that everyone does.

Again. We don’t agree. At all.

But unless you've been an umpire, my experience is more insightful than yours.

And my experience isn't just about ordering and eating burgers. It's about the intricacies of umpiring and refereeing. And because I've been one, I have more insight than a person who hasn't.

And that goes for ANY field or endeavor.

 

[Ring Leader]

Dak would have probably thrown a pick the next play anyway.

If he did throw an end zone pick with no time left on the clock would it be talked about incessantly for 15 years as a choke INT? Like Romo's 4th down Hail Mary he "had" to throw against the Giants in the 2007 playoffs? With half of this forum the answer is probably and unfortunately yes.

 

[DrKlahn]

I know there’s a zillion threads about this, but I haven’t seen this posted.

I was in section C312 and I had a perfect view of the final seconds. My friend, seated next to me, was recording those last sections on his cell phone.

Yeah, it probably wasn’t the best play call but what I can tell you is that there was plenty of time still on the clock when Dak slid. He didn’t do anything wrong with the ball. There’s one referee who is charged with placing it.

Now you can call this conspiratal, you can say that this particular referee was daydreaming or maybe he just never expected a QB draw, but he was 15 yards behind the line of scrimmage when the play started and he stayed there until the moment that Dak slid.

Then, and only then, did he start sprinting toward the line to spot the ball. I watched this with my own eyes. No matter what Dak did with the ball or who he handed it to, there was a snowball’s chance in inferno that his referee was going to get there in time. None.

So go ahead and blame Kellen Moore. And trust me, I’m not one to say the fix was in. But the game was a comedy of errors by the officials and that ball should have been spotted with enough time for one more play call.

Remember one more thing:

There were controversial outcomes in the games against both the Raiders and Cardinals. If Dallas wins one of those games, they were playing Philly yesterday. If they win both, they had a bye week.

I get it - play well enough that the outcome can’t come down to a play decided by the referees. OK. But we were robbed yesterday, pure and simple.

Flame away.

Unfortunately, complaining about this is moot. That being said, it was amazing to me that Shanahan did not complain about time remaining after the 4th down call with 1:11 left. The 40 second clock began at that time and then was stopped at 1 minute to look at the spot. After the spot was determined short, the time remaining was 1 minute with 29 seconds left on the play clock. It was then changed to 1:04 with 25 seconds left on the play clock.
Is a 6 year old the timekeeper? This is a ridiculous arithmetic gaffe. They added 4 seconds without adding 4 seconds. Instead, they subtracted 4 seconds.
The Cowboys were given 8 additional seconds due to a inexcusable mistake by officials! Wow, mistakes by officials...so rare huh? The NFL has become a joke.

 

[triplets_93]

"Blaming the Refs is the Losers Battle Cry"...

 

[MarcusRock]

and it would be on the one making the accusation to prove it

Good luck with that on these boards. You will NEVER get anything of the sort with people's hazy (and lazy) accusations other than, "I can see inside their heads and KNOW that they called this strictly to do us in." No e-mail scandals, no FBI-level sleuthing, just "I know" and being aghast that you don't come to the same conclusion with no hard evidence. Almost convincing too. Lol.

 

[MarcusRock]

But unless you've been an umpire, my experience is more insightful than yours.

And my experience isn't just about ordering and eating burgers. It's about the intricacies of umpiring and refereeing. And because I've been one, I have more insight than a person who hasn't.

And that goes for ANY field or endeavor.

"Smackdown, Aisle 7. Smackdown, Aisle 7. Requesting a clean-up of bruised pride on Aisle 7, please."

 

[Ring Leader]

Is rectified the verb form of rectum? Asking for a friend!!!!

All I know is there's definitely a rectum involved.

 

[Rack]

If he did throw an end zone pick with no time left on the clock would it be talked about incessantly for 15 years as a choke INT? Like Romo's 4th down Hail Mary he "had" to throw against the Giants in the 2007 playoffs? With half of this forum the answer is probably and unfortunately yes.

lol probably would be.

I still don't understand the play call. We had time for two hail Mary attempts from where we were. I guess they only wanted one attempt, not two.

 

[boysbeyond4ever]

Umpire have in staying 30 yards back

Shouldn't Dak know beforehand which ref gets the ball? Wouldn't that be important to know with 14 seconds left in a game that determines whether you move on or go home?

The ref comes to get the ball you don't by rule or anything else give the ball to any official, and so that's not simply a cheap shot it's a factually innaccurate and intellectually dishonest cheap shot.

But even if that were the rule, the Umpire utterly failed as former NFL Director of Officiating and the point man of the NFL's Instant Replay program before that said by waiting far too long to run into the play, Another former Director of Officiating Mike Pereira suggested there could haven a review of the time on the clock at that that point but the officials on the field decided among themselves that everything was done properly without consulting New York( or New York Consulting them) Suggesting this was a cross-the-board failure. What purpose does the umpire in holding back from moving down the field when the quarterback has run nearly 20 yards down the field? You have a Referee if there who is a sudden change to happen who could address any officiating issues because by then there won't be half-a-dozen or a dozen guys in the play. The Umpire either wasn't quick enough or aware enough of the situation to react properly. Either way he failed football as well as the Cowboys because all bad officiating fails football as much as it does the teams that victims of it.


There are numerous easy steps the League can take to remedy all manner of issues with the competency consistency and clarity of its officiating, they just choose not to because of people who just accept it happily even in the unhappiest of circumstances, just as you rightly say the coaching staff can do a better job working with players to avoid many of these penalties. Doing either one without the other is pointless though. If you want to Cowboys to work harder to do a better job you should also want referees to do every bit as much of a better job

We had Six pre-snap penalties, but one of them absolutely was a missed false start by San Francisco before, I think it was Randy, jumped reacting to him flinching. Them we got a false star in virtually the same exact situation - a flinch - if one flinch is an offensive penalty and another is not both call are in effect wrong. You cannot see the same action two different ways and be correct in one case and not the other. That is the essence of inconsistency, the most frustrating form of incompetency in enforcing rules.

Then there is that delay of game penalty where the Umpire again caused the delay by first making us too long to snap to allow the Niners to substitute (which was proper for him to do but he held the snap too long there).and then running back right across where the ball was to be snapped making it impossible to snap before the 00 mark. Was that indiscipline or lack of training? No It was an Umpire initially doing his job correctly then going too far in doing it and irresponsibly moving too late.

Point being not all penalties are the fault of the players or coaches. Our players and coaches - all players and coaches,really can work to do their jobs better. Should we be able to expect officials to do theirs better then?

 

[BrassCowboy]

NFL refs are by far the worst in sports. Most sp

I couldn’t disagree more with almost everything you said. Sorry.

Refs don’t have time for bias? They try to do their best?
Ok.

I feel people trusted with enforcing any rules should be held to a very high standard. In general, NFL refs are old and weak. We see unexplainably bad calls weekly all over the sport.

We can agree we won’t agree.

everyone complains about bad calls.... this team lost because they well deserved to lose

 

[boysbeyond4ever]

lol probably would be.

I still don't understand the play call. We had time for two hail Mary attempts from where we were. I guess they only wanted one attempt, not two.

The play call was ****. But that's not the point. There isn't a stupidity penalty in football. The point is the Umpire didn't handle the situation properly and thus failed to do his job properly.

 

[Rack]

The play call was ****. But that's not the point. There isn't a stupidity penalty in football. The point is the Umpire didn't handle the situation properly and thus failed to do his job properly.

Refs didn't do their job properly all season, and not just when the Cowboys played

Officiating this season was horrid league wide

 

[MajesticRey]

The ref only has to TOUCH the ball, not set it themself.

Still a dumb play call and it shouldn’t have come down to that play.

 

[tyke1doe]

The ref comes to get the ball you don't by rule or anything else give the ball to any official, and so that's not simply a cheap shot it's a factually innaccurate and intellectually dishonest cheap shot.

I see players giving the ball to the ref many times.

But even if that were the rule, the Umpire utterly failed as former NFL Director of Officiating and the point man of the NFL's Instant Replay program before that said by waiting far too long to run into the play, Another former Director of Officiating Mike Pereira suggested there could haven a review of the time on the clock at that that point but the officials on the field decided among themselves that everything was done properly without consulting New York( or New York Consulting them) Suggesting this was a cross-the-board failure. What purpose does the umpire in holding back from moving down the field when the quarterback has run nearly 20 yards down the field? You have a Referee if there who is a sudden change to happen who could address any officiating issues because by then there won't be half-a-dozen or a dozen guys in the play. The Umpire either wasn't quick enough or aware enough of the situation to react properly. Either way he failed football as well as the Cowboys because all bad officiating fails football as much as it does the teams that victims of it.


There are numerous easy steps the League can take to remedy all manner of issues with the competency consistency and clarity of its officiating, they just choose not to because of people who just accept it happily even in the unhappiest of circumstances, just as you rightly say the coaching staff can do a better job working with players to avoid many of these penalties. Doing either one without the other is pointless though. If you want to Cowboys to work harder to do a better job you should also want referees to do every bit as much of a better job

We had Six pre-snap penalties, but one of them absolutely was a missed false start by San Francisco before, I think it was Randy, jumped reacting to him flinching. Them we got a false star in virtually the same exact situation - a flinch - if one flinch is an offensive penalty and another is not both call are in effect wrong. You cannot see the same action two different ways and be correct in one case and not the other. That is the essence of inconsistency, the most frustrating form of incompetency in enforcing rules.

Then there is that delay of game penalty where the Umpire again caused the delay by first making us too long to snap to allow the Niners to substitute (which was proper for him to do but he held the snap too long there).and then running back right across where the ball was to be snapped making it impossible to snap before the 00 mark. Was that indiscipline or lack of training? No It was an Umpire initially doing his job correctly then going too far in doing it and irresponsibly moving too late.

Point being not all penalties are the fault of the players or coaches. Our players and coaches - all players and coaches,really can work to do their jobs better. Should we be able to expect officials to do theirs better then?

When you're prepared and over prepared, you don't rely on the refs. What stopped Dak from going up to the ref before the play and saying, "Hey, ref. I'm going to need you close on this next play." I see Brady, I see Rodgers, I see other quarterbacks working the ref. Shrug.

People who over prepare consider little things as such.

Now we're left whining about the refs when this game didn't have to be placed in their hands.
The ref screwed up, but we were in a position to lose. AND WE DID.

See you next year.