Understanding Marinelli's 4-3

[Nightman]

I would love some help better understanding the roles in DAL's defense. This is my basic layman's view of the defense and may be 100% incorrect. Any input would be appreciated.

Most people will call it a version of the Tampa 2 from Monte Kifkin and Tony Dungy but there are some variations under Marinelli.

The DL is pure penetrate. He wants quickness and disruption
Strong Side DE- has run responsibilities so he must be big enough to maintain the edge. But he also has to get to the passer. Prototype 6-5 280 lbs
DT- also the 3 Technique, meaning he lines up in the gap between the OG and OT. Usually the star of the DL in the Warren Sapp role. 6-3 290 lbs
DT- also 1T or Under T. Plays cocked off of the C. Needs to be stout but and to draw double teams but penetration is still the key. Not as big as most NTs in the 3-4. 6-0 300lbs
Weak Side DE- pure speed rusher, not as strong agaisnt the run. 6-5 265 lbs
Strong OLB- SAM- needs to stuff run on early downs. Usually replaced by Nickel DB unless he is a rare athlete. Has to cover TEs and RBs. 6-3 250lbs
Middle LB- MIKE- bruiser, 3 down thumper that has to take on run game head on. Has short middle zone responsibility in pass coverage. 6-3 255lbs
Weakside OLB- WILL- needs to be good in coverage with speed. Free to attack run game from OL. 6-2 240lbs

CBs- are usually interchangeable and under Marinelli run a lot of zone. They don't get beat deep but don't make many plays on the ball either. Over-rated in this scheme unless they are playing man or press. 6-0 190lb
FS- plays deep, responsible for half the field on long balls. Again under-rated in Marinelli's D. 6-2 200lbs
SS- helps with the run, big hitter has deep responsibility. 6-2 210lbs
Nickel CB- replaces SAM on throwing downs and covers slot WRs. Has to be versatile. 6-1 195lb

...................DLaw-SDE.........TCrawford-3T............FA/TMcClain- 1T...........GHardy- WDE.....
...................Russell-SDE.......DIrving-3T...............GHardy- Nickel DT.........RGregory-WDE..
...........Hitchens- SAM..............................RMcClain-MIKE.....................SLee-WILL..................
...........OScan- Nickel CB........................Hitchens-MIKE......................Gachkar-WILL.............

BJones-CB..................Wilcox-SS...............................Weddle-FS............................OScan-CB
TMitchell-CB...............Church-SS..............................Heath-FS...............................FA/Draft-CB


What FAs/Draft picks would fit at which positons? Obviously I like BJones as a CB but I understand he might be the FS.

If no Hardy then Bosa or Nkemdiche.
I like Nick Fairley at 1T or Raji or Knighton. Draft pick can be had in deep DT draft.
No McClain then Jack or JSmith, Scooby Wright later
Ramsey can be a CB/FS solution. Also Kearse or Joseph for SS

 

[Howboutdemcowboys31]

See though it's hard for me to say they don't make plays on the ball if we're just talking Marinellis scheme. His bears defenses led the league in turnovers all the time. Sometimes you gotta put it on the players. Outside of Oscan and Byron, our secondary is trash

 

[robjay04]

See though it's hard for me to say they don't make plays on the ball if we're just talking Marinellis scheme. His bears defenses led the league in turnovers all the time. Sometimes you gotta put it on the players. Outside of Oscan and Byron, our secondary is trash

Heck we created a lot of turnovers last season, just a weird season.

Lack of offense had a lot to do with everything though.

 

[cowboyschmps3]

Fairley had signed a one year deal?

 

[Nightman]

Fairley had signed a one year deal?

Yes he signed a 1 year 5m deal with STL. I think he can be had for 5/25m, 10m guaranteed. Basically a 2 year deal, more if he stays productive.

 

[Nightman]

See though it's hard for me to say they don't make plays on the ball if we're just talking Marinellis scheme. His bears defenses led the league in turnovers all the time. Sometimes you gotta put it on the players. Outside of Oscan and Byron, our secondary is trash

I always hear CBs can be had for cheap in this scheme, but we keep spending big bucks on Carr and top draft picks for Mo and BJones. For no INTs it seems we should go cheap for bend but don't break CBs.

 

[TheFinisher]

The Mike in this defense is not designed to be a thumper,bruiser or 255 lbs.

The Mike actually has to be able to cover more ground than anyone on the field, he will be asked as a middle runner to carry inside receivers vertically into the deep middle portion of a 3 deep zone. The safeties favor the boundaries more so than in a traditional cover 2 defense, it's to cover up those soft spots in a traditional cover 2. The Mike was then asked to be a 3rd safety to cover up the middle of the field, his drop was modified to extend and stretch all the way down the deep middle 3rd.

The ideal Mike in this defense needs to be incredibly athletic and comfortable playing in space... you know, someone like MYLES JACK.

 

[Nightman]

The Mike in this defense is not designed to be a thumper,bruiser or 255 lbs.

The Mike actually has to be able to cover more ground than anyone on the field, he will be asked as a middle runner to carry inside receivers vertically into the deep middle portion of a 3 deep zone. The safeties favor the boundaries more so than in a traditional cover 2 defense, it's to cover up those soft spots in a traditional cover 2. The Mike was then asked to be a 3rd safety to cover up the middle of the field, his drop was modified to extend and stretch all the way down the deep middle 3rd.

The ideal Mike in this defense needs to be incredibly athletic and comfortable playing in space... you know, someone like MYLES JACK.

Thanks.

I thought they moved SLee off the MIKE to save his body. I thought that meant he was getting blasted by the OL too much and his smaller frame couldn't take it as well. I remember the way Urlacher was used but I just thought he was a freak for his size.

 

[TheFinisher]

See though it's hard for me to say they don't make plays on the ball if we're just talking Marinellis scheme. His bears defenses led the league in turnovers all the time. Sometimes you gotta put it on the players. Outside of Oscan and Byron, our secondary is trash

Urlacher and Briggs were what made that defense a force. Need special LBs for this system to thrive.

 

[CCBoy]

Urlacher and Briggs were what made that defense a force. Need special LBs for this system to thrive.

Sean Lee is one of those special linebackers, and taking one at 4 would be the other.

 

[TheFinisher]

Thanks.

I thought they moved SLee off the MIKE to save his body. I thought that meant he was getting blasted by the OL too much and his smaller frame couldn't take it as well. I remember the way Urlacher was used but I just thought he was a freak for his size.

Sean Lee is just one of the least durable players I can ever remember. In theory the Will is covered up more than the Mike, but it's not like the Mike is getting Guards in his face right away like an ILB in a 3-4 scheme. The Mike is still covered pretty well.

Also, if your Will is expected to be more active in the box and in the run game than your Mike it doesn't make sense to move someone to Will to save their body. The Will is going to be involved in WAY more run stops than the Mike, thus more high end collisions. I think Will was just Seans more natural spot, he thrives in sifting through trash and being restricted within the box. He's a see ball get ball guy all the way. All that "save his body" talk was just Jerry speak not knowing what he's talking about IMHO. Marinelli knew Sean could be a better Will, had nothing to do with injury risk.

 

[Nightman]

Urlacher and Briggs were what made that defense a force. Need special LBs for this system to thrive.

So you think MJack can be a 3 down MIKE for this team.

What about JSmith from ND, is he more of a SAM or WILL?

 

[JoeyBoy718]

I really wouldn't be opposed to a LB now that I think about it. I definitely don't want a DB at #4. That's not changing for me. But I'm open to the idea of a LB considering the two most talented players in this draft might be LBers (Jack, Smith). I also don't think we should take Jack over Smith simply because of the injury. If he'll be better for the next 10 years, then what's half a rookie season? That being said, what I really want is a QB or DT. I have my eye on the 3 top QBs and 3 specific big DTs who could provide run support and pass rush (Robinson, Billings and Rankins). I think DT is deep enough in this draft that we could still get a very good player at 34, but we could really get a difference maker in the top 15-20. But if the LBers are true elite prospects, I wouldn't be upset with getting one at #4. Last thing I wouldn't be upset with at #4 is a DE. The top WDE (and probably top edge rusher) is Spence and the top SDE is Bosa. I'd be okay with either one (prefer Spence because he's a top 3 defensive talent along with LBers Jack and Smith), but I'd prefer we give our current young DE duo a chance. Lawrence really surprised me this season and Gregory would be a top talent in this draft like he was last year. Jack/Smith at #4 and the top 1-tech DT at #34, along with key free agents, could really make this defense a good one. Then again, there are 3 potential franchise QBs as well...

Edit: This might be more of a draft thread post but I guess my mind is just fully in draft mode.

 

[Rack]

"Middle LB- MIKE- bruiser, 3 down thumper that has to take on run game head on. Has short middle zone responsibility in pass coverage. 6-3 255lbs"

In a Tampa 2 the MLB has deep middle responsibility so he needs to be an athletic type, not just a thumper.


Edit: I should have read the whole thread before replying.

 

[TheFinisher]

So you think MJack can be a 3 down MIKE for this team.

What about JSmith from ND, is he more of a SAM or WILL?

IMO Jack can play any LB spot, but he'd be an outstanding Mike. He played exclusively at CB some games for UCLA and shadowed some big names like Nelson Agholar and shut them down. He just has rare movement skills in space for a LB, almost generational. Fluidness like a DB. He also plays with a lot more power than you would think just by looking at his size... he plays like a bully. Plus, the kid can flat out CLOSE on receivers/ball carriers, we haven't had that at the LB position in a long time.

I love Jaylon Smith as well, he's not as refined in coverage as Jack but is a more developed pass rusher. I'd probably be more inclined to play him at Will and let him chase, Sam would kind of take away his athleticism and ability to be a backside player... although he can definitely stack over a TE at the LOS if needed.

I said back in December that these 2 guys are the best players in this class... I still feel that way.

 

[Nightman]

I really wouldn't be opposed to a LB now that I think about it. I definitely don't want a DB at #4. That's not changing for me. But I'm open to the idea of a LB considering the two most talented players in this draft might be LBers (Jack, Smith). I also don't think we should take Jack over Smith simply because of the injury. If he'll be better for the next 10 years, then what's half a rookie season? That being said, what I really want is a QB or DT. I have my eye on the 3 top QBs and 3 specific big DTs who could provide run support and pass rush (Robinson, Billings and Rankins). I think DT is deep enough in this draft that we could still get a very good player at 34, but we could really get a difference maker in the top 15-20. But if the LBers are true elite prospects, I wouldn't be upset with getting one at #4. Last thing I wouldn't be upset with at #4 is a DE. The top WDE (and probably top edge rusher) is Spence and the top SDE is Bosa. I'd be okay with either one (prefer Spence because he's a top 3 defensive talent along with LBers Jack and Smith), but I'd prefer we give our current young DE duo a chance. Lawrence really surprised me this season and Gregory would be a top talent in this draft like he was last year. Jack/Smith at #4 and the top 1-tech DT at #34, along with key free agents, could really make this defense a good one. Then again, there are 3 potential franchise QBs as well...

Edit: This might be more of a draft thread post but I guess my mind is just fully in draft mode.

It all fits together. Who to re-sign, what FAs to sign and who to draft.

One big move negates another. If we re-sign Hardy there is no way we draft Bosa.
If we sign Weddle we might not need to draft a CB.
RoMcClain might eliminate Jack.....etc

No matter what though, you are right, we need a DT.

 

[Nightman]

IMO Jack can play any LB spot, but he'd be an outstanding Mike. He played exclusively at CB some games for UCLA and shadowed some big names like Nelson Agholar and shut them down. He just has rare movement skills in space for a LB, almost generational. Fluidness like a DB. He also plays with a lot more power than you would think just by looking at his size... he plays like a bully. Plus, the kid can flat out CLOSE on receivers/ball carriers, we haven't had that at the LB position in a long time.

I love Jaylon Smith as well, he's not as refined in coverage as Jack but is a more developed pass rusher. I'd probably be more inclined to play him at Will and let him chase, Sam would kind of take away his athleticism and ability to be a backside player... although he can definitely stack over a TE at the LOS if needed.

I said back in December that these 2 guys are the best players in this class... I still feel that way.

Thanks for all you replies. It is hard to know who to look for if we don't even now where to play them.

I just assumed MIKE was a big guy because of McClain but he moves pretty well for a big guy and was a Top 10 draft pick back in the day. The stuff about Lee and the WILL makes sense. SAM is really more of the head-on run stopper that has some TE coverage but comes off the field in the Nickel anyways.

I want a QB at 4 but if not Jack seems like a fine choice.

 

[BAT]

Cowboys under Marinelli are not a Tampa 2 team, at least not as base D. Tampa 2 refers to the coverage rather than front 7. MLB is not asked to cover the deep middle like Urlacher did in Chicago, essentially a cover 3. And our corners are rarely playing zone these days, an important facet of the Tampa 2.

Tampa 2 was Dungy and Kiffin's version of Steel Curtain defensive coverage. Tampa 2 employs a 4-3 Under front, same base front used by current Cowboys. This defense requires speed and gang tackling to be successful. Every single defensive player has to be fast (even if smaller than average size, which is usually case) and a great tackler, especially DBs and LBs. Even the front 4 must be quick twitch and blazing fast. As an under front, it is primarily a one gap system. The 3 technique DT, or Under Tackle, is the focal point for the pass rush pressure. Again emphasis is on speed rather than size.

WILL plays behind under tackle and is uncovered, no gap responsibility, so he can flow freely to ball. Need speed, aggression and great tackling ability for this position.

 

[CCBoy]

Cowboys under Marinelli are not a Tampa 2 team, at least not as base D. Tampa 2 refers to the coverage rather than front 7. MLB is not asked to cover the deep middle like Urlacher did in Chicago, essentially a cover 3. And our corners are rarely playing zone these days, an important facet of the Tampa 2.

Tampa 2 was Dungy and Kiffin's version of Steel Curtain defensive coverage. Tampa 2 employs a 4-3 Under front, same base front used by current Cowboys. This defense requires speed and gang tackling to be successful. Every single defensive player has to be fast (even if smaller than average size, which is usually case) and a great tackler, especially DBs and LBs. Even the front 4 must be quick twitch and blazing fast. As an under front, it is primarily a one gap system. The 3 technique DT, or Under Tackle, is the focal point for the pass rush pressure. Again emphasis is on speed rather than size.

WILL plays behind under tackle and is uncovered, no gap responsibility, so he can flow freely to ball. Need speed, aggression and great tackling ability for this position.

Good observations, but a comparison with the Carolina 4-3 shows that they are very successful with dominant defensive tackles and linebackers...

That same concept would probably work with Marinelli, who likes a very active linebacker element as well.

Sean Lee makes a great will linebacker.

 

[BAT]

Tampa 2 biggest weaknesses are the seams of zone coverage. A good TE can absolutely shred a traditional Tampa 2. A power running team can also abuse the middle of the 4-3 Under which usually relies on speed over size. Misdirection is another way to take advantage of a speed, undersized, gang tackling defense like this.

Getting big guys without sacrificing speed or aggression is the key IMO. Or guys who may appear undersized but play HUGE, e.g. Jack Lambert, Ronde Barber, John Randle, etc.

Also being able to play multiple fronts effectively depending on opponent or formation. Seattle plays a ton of 4-3 over for example. And they utilize the SAM differently/pass rusher in situations, as well as playing more 2 gap and or bigger SDE or 1 technique DT.