Understanding Marinelli's 4-3

[Nightman]

Tampa 2 biggest weaknesses are the seams of zone coverage. A good TE can absolutely shred a traditional Tampa 2. A power running team can also abuse the middle of the 4-3 Under which usually relies on speed over size. Misdirection is another way to take advantage of a speed, undersized, gang tackling defense like this.

Getting big guys without sacrificing speed or aggression is the key IMO. Or guys who may appear undersized but play HUGE, e.g. Jack Lambert, Ronde Barber, John Randle, etc.

Also being able to play multiple fronts effectively depending on opponent or formation. Seattle plays a ton of 4-3 over for example. And they utilize the SAM differently/pass rusher in situations, as well as playing more 2 gap and or bigger SDE or 1 technique DT.

Could we use any of their guys like Mebane or Irvin?

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Strong Side DE- has run responsibilities so he must be big enough to maintain the edge. But he also has to get to the passer. Prototype 6-5 280 lbs

You're thinking more of a Cover 2 Scheme, ala Zimmer or Marvin Lewis. Marinelli wants his D-Line to get upfield first, and then sustaining their gap responsibility second. Lawrence played mostly SDE and goes at about 250-260 pounds. Guys like Greg Spires and Greg White only went about 260 pounds.

Marinelli seems more intent on having his 2nd best rushman on the SDE spot. While Lovie Smith preferred to have his best rusher at the SDE side (as Lovie once said, usually the RT are weaker in pass pro than the LT).

DT- also 1T or Under T

. Plays cocked off of the C. Needs to be stout but and to draw double teams but penetration is still the key. Not as big as most NTs in the 3-4. 6-0 300lbs

I think the responsibilities are correct here, but I think Marinelli is looking for a 3-tech type of clone. Get upfield first, sustain gap responsibility second. He'll prefer shorter DT's because they can hit the gap quicker and you don't need them to see over the linemen like you do in a 3-4. Hayden gets to stay because he always hustles and tackles well.

Strong OLB- SAM

- needs to stuff run on early downs. Usually replaced by Nickel DB unless he is a rare athlete. Has to cover TEs and RBs. 6-3 250lbs

Problem is in today's NFL the SAM just isn't used much. I think the league looks at this position as mostly a special teamer, maybe a guy that can sub in for the MIKE or the WILL if needed or maybe get a pass rusher.

Middle LB- MIKE- bruiser, 3 down thumper that has to take on run game head on. Has short middle zone responsibility in pass coverage. 6-3 255lbs

Used to be much smaller and more rangy. But with the 3 and 4 WR sets now you need somebody to handle the run and let the WILL help out more in coverage. In Detroit, Marinelli had Paris Lenon who went at 240 pounds. Urlacher was far from a thumper. He was an athlete. They tried to replace him with Nick Roach that goes at 245 pounds. I think Damien Wilson is more what they are looking for. Strong, can take on the run and chase it down the sidelines and keep blockers off Lee.

CBs-

are usually interchangeable and under Marinelli run a lot of zone. They don't get beat deep but don't make many plays on the ball either. Over-rated in this scheme unless they are playing man or press. 6-0 190lb

We didn't use much zone this season. He definitely prefers bigger, more capable tacklers which is common in the zone

FS

- plays deep, responsible for half the field on long balls. Again under-rated in Marinelli's D. 6-2 200lbs
SS- helps with the run, big hitter has deep responsibility. 6-2 210lbs

Church didn't get much deep responsibility because he couldn't handle it. Wilcox has some real ability in man coverage which you need if you want the corners to play zone. Unfortunately, Wilcox is horrendous in zone (never gets deep enough and can't tackle). Seems to value the SS over the FS. In Tampa, all of the product FS that went on the FA market were let go (Robinson, Jackson, etc).







YR

 

[texbumthelife]

See though it's hard for me to say they don't make plays on the ball if we're just talking Marinellis scheme. His bears defenses led the league in turnovers all the time. Sometimes you gotta put it on the players. Outside of Oscan and Byron, our secondary is trash

Heck we created a lot of turnovers last season, just a weird season.

Lack of offense had a lot to do with everything though.

In 2014 the Cowboys played their secondary in prediminantly cover-2 zone and cover-3. The corners had eyes on the QB for much longer and therefor broke on a lot more passes. In 2015, the Cowboys switched to to man-to-man coverage concepts for the corners, playing a lot more cover-1 and cover-2 man concepts. Because of this, the corners turn their backs almost immediately and have less chance of reacting to the ball.

 

[texbumthelife]

Tampa 2 biggest weaknesses are the seams of zone coverage. A good TE can absolutely shred a traditional Tampa 2. A power running team can also abuse the middle of the 4-3 Under which usually relies on speed over size. Misdirection is another way to take advantage of a speed, undersized, gang tackling defense like this.

Getting big guys without sacrificing speed or aggression is the key IMO. Or guys who may appear undersized but play HUGE, e.g. Jack Lambert, Ronde Barber, John Randle, etc.

Also being able to play multiple fronts effectively depending on opponent or formation. Seattle plays a ton of 4-3 over for example. And they utilize the SAM differently/pass rusher in situations, as well as playing more 2 gap and or bigger SDE or 1 technique DT.

The timing between the LB, CB and Safety is absolutely crucial to the success of the Tampa-2. If one guy doesn't carry his man long enough, or the next man doesn't pick him up soon enough, there are gaping seems. This was one of the biggest issues the Cowboys had last year and why they abandoned the Tampa-2 zones. Our LB's, even Lee, really struggled to get to the proper depth and/or carry their guys. On the outside, our corners got caught looking quite a bit and weren't carrying their guys far enough up the sideline. When you take those two issues and factor in the very uneven safety play, it's not hard to understand why they went to more man-to-man coverages this season.

 

[cowboyschmps3]

Yes he signed a 1 year 5m deal with STL. I think he can be had for 5/25m, 10m guaranteed. Basically a 2 year deal, more if he stays productive.

Yeah how did he do with the Rams I know they always have a good front 7 over there. It be nice to have him here in there at 1tech.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Tampa 2 biggest weaknesses are the seams of zone coverage. A good TE can absolutely shred a traditional Tampa 2. A power running team can also abuse the middle of the 4-3 Under which usually relies on speed over size. Misdirection is another way to take advantage of a speed, undersized, gang tackling defense like this.

Getting big guys without sacrificing speed or aggression is the key IMO. Or guys who may appear undersized but play HUGE, e.g. Jack Lambert, Ronde Barber, John Randle, etc.

Also being able to play multiple fronts effectively depending on opponent or formation. Seattle plays a ton of 4-3 over for example. And they utilize the SAM differently/pass rusher in situations, as well as playing more 2 gap and or bigger SDE or 1 technique DT.

We don't play Tampa 2. Hell, it was mostly Cover 1 man last year.

I think we have to figure out the MIKE and the safety spots. I think today's NFL really stresses those positions. If you really want to defend it well, you will need players that are smart and can do a lot of different things. If you don't have those type of players, then it allows the offense more options.

The scheme doesn't really concern me. What concerns me more is that Marinelli thinks we can skirt by with margin safety talent and that when you play zone, you'll need a pass rush. If we don't have Hardy, that hurts the pass rush and Marinelli is averse to blitzing to get that pressure with zone coverage.




YR

 

[BAT]

Could we use any of their guys like Mebane or Irvin?

Yes, if Marinelli okays it. Irvin at least fits the criteria, 4.4 speed and good tackler. But very undersized for DE. Even lighter than Gregory. Could pass rush from SAM, but Marinelli hasn't really used SAM that way in Dallas.

 

[CyberB0b]

We don't play Tampa 2. Hell, it was mostly Cover 1 man last year.

I think we have to figure out the MIKE and the safety spots. I think today's NFL really stresses those positions. If you really want to defend it well, you will need players that are smart and can do a lot of different things. If you don't have those type of players, then it allows the offense more options.

The scheme doesn't really concern me. What concerns me more is that Marinelli thinks we can skirt by with margin safety talent and that when you play zone, you'll need a pass rush. If we don't have Hardy, that hurts the pass rush and Marinelli is averse to blitzing to get that pressure with zone coverage.




YR

This. The Cowboys have changed schemes 3x under the Kiffin/Marinelli regime. 2014 was more of a Cover 3 with some man sprinkled in. This year was more Cover 1 with zone sprinkled in early in the year. Later in the year, they started going to more two deep zones, like Cover 2 and 4.

Marinelli is really out of his element. We need someone fresh here. This play should never happen with this coverage.

 

[Nightman]

In 2014 the Cowboys played their secondary in prediminantly cover-2 zone and cover-3. The corners had eyes on the QB for much longer and therefor broke on a lot more passes. In 2015, the Cowboys switched to to man-to-man coverage concepts for the corners, playing a lot more cover-1 and cover-2 man concepts. Because of this, the corners turn their backs almost immediately and have less chance of reacting to the ball.

Would you say they played a soft man coverage. They let them have some room underneath but won't get beat deep. It didn't seem a like an aggressive man to man press Defense.

And if that is the case, do they need CBs or FSs more and where should BJones play?

Can McClain do the job. He seemed a step too slow on the coverage and sometimes even got in the way.
Jack might really be the key if he is athletic and fluid in coverage as advertised.

 

[bodi]

Urlacher and Briggs were what made that defense a force. Need special LBs for this system to thrive.

so why was McClain playing there ?

at 6-4 #260 ?

 

[texbumthelife]

Strong Side DE- has run responsibilities so he must be big enough to maintain the edge. But he also has to get to the passer. Prototype 6-5 280 lbs

As has already been stated, the SDE on a Marinelli DL is still supposed to get upfield first. He needs to push the pocket from the outside, in. The problem is, the SDE usually has to take on more blockers, and sees more running plays, so it just happens to be your best run defending or beefiest DE usually.

DT- also the 3 Technique, meaning he lines up in the gap between the OG and OT. Usually the star of the DL in the Warren Sapp role. 6-3 290 lbs

This sole purpose of the 3T in this defense is to collapse the pocket from the inside. If you're not getting disruption from your 3T, you're going to have a hard time in this defense.

DT- also 1T or Under T. Plays cocked off of the C. Needs to be stout but and to draw double teams but penetration is still the key. Not as big as most NTs in the 3-4. 6-0 300lbs

Consider the 1T on a Marinelli line, like the SDT. His first responsibility is still getting upfield, however, he sets up over the G/C so the C can't immediately double down on your 1T, who is usually your better pass rusher. For this reason, the position necessitates a bigger body who can hold the point of attack, while still getting push and making the C account for him. You can't simply put a big body here and hope for success because, as we've seen, he won't keep the C honest and your 1T loses all leverage playing off G.

Weak Side DE- pure speed rusher, not as strong agaisnt the run. 6-5 265 lbs

WDE first and foremost needs a lightning fast first step. He needs to set the OT back on his heels, hopefully creating gaps and space because, when properly manned, the G/C combo have to account for your 1T. One of the biggest and most unheralded values of this is your WLB has a clear view of the QB. WDE is usually your most athletic pass rusher, and many times, your best athlete.

Strong OLB- SAM- needs to stuff run on early downs. Usually replaced by Nickel DB unless he is a rare athlete. Has to cover TEs and RBs. 6-3 250lbs

Can't just be a run stuffer. This guy has to have the ability to carry a TE up the seem and/or transition into the intermediate zone. He has to be as smart as he is strong, because he is the only person with a 3-man read. He has to read the TE going in/out/up, then the RB, then the WR. In base defense, this guy is one of the most important players, not just a run stopper. Fortunately, teams don't spend a lot of time in base offenses anymore, but this concept and the difficulty finding the right player for it, is one of the reasons the 12 and 22 formations (two tight ends) are so difficult to defend.

Middle LB- MIKE- bruiser, 3 down thumper that has to take on run game head on. Has short middle zone responsibility in pass coverage. 6-3 255lbs

First things first isn't being a thumper, it's being able to diagnose. This guy needs to be very heady and athletic. If he misdiagnoses a play or bites on play action, the middle of the field is going to be wide open. He has to be able to transition from a back pedal to attacking downhill effortlessly and without expending excess energy or giving up more ground. When playing the run, your MLB has to maintain his gap responsibility. If you have a Mike who overruns plays in this defense, there are going to be gaping cutback lanes.

Weakside OLB- WILL- needs to be good in coverage with speed. Free to attack run game from OL. 6-2 240lbs

Will needs to be a heat seeking missile. He is rarely going to have under coverage, but if he does, he can't hesitate. Likewise, he has to attack the edge without giving it up, or weak-sde runs and cutbacks will murder you. Will has the most flexibility in this defense and if you have the right guy here, someone who wants to play 100mph every down, without losing contain, you're going to get some good splash plays.

CBs- are usually interchangeable and under Marinelli run a lot of zone. They don't get beat deep but don't make many plays on the ball either. Over-rated in this scheme unless they are playing man or press. 6-0 190lb

I wouldn't say that CB's are interchangeable. Ronde Barber absolutely made those Buccanneers secondaries. What Marinelli wants, is guys who have very quick, fluid hips. This means they change direction exceptionally well, without giving up ground. They must be willing to attack ball carriers attempting to get outside--I can't emphasize this enough.

FS- plays deep, responsible for half the field on long balls. Again under-rated in Marinelli's D. 6-2 200lbs

Deeper than the deepest in his half, correct. Not generally a position of great impact, if played right. However, if you don't have a line that can get pressure, you better have safeties who can run, because the WR's know the CB is going to release them. If your safety can't run and cover, you're going to have a long day (without pressure).

SS- helps with the run, big hitter has deep responsibility. 6-2 210lbs

See FS. In a traditional Tampa-2, The safeties are mostly interchangeable, but your SS needs to be able to handle a TE down the seem.

Nickel CB- replaces SAM on throwing downs and covers slot WRs. Has to be versatile. 6-1 195lb

Needs to be lightning quick and physical. Needs to be a very willing and able tackler.

Just my $.02. Hope it helps.

 

[Nightman]

This. The Cowboys have changed schemes 3x under the Kiffin/Marinelli regime. 2014 was more of a Cover 3 with some man sprinkled in. This year was more Cover 1 with zone sprinkled in early in the year. Later in the year, they started going to more two deep zones, like Cover 2 and 4.

Marinelli is really out of his element. We need someone fresh here. This play should never happen with this coverage.

Was that zone and the CB handed him off to the safety that wasn't there or was it man and the CB just forgot to keep covering

 

[BAT]

We don't play Tampa 2. Hell, it was mostly Cover 1 man last year.

I think we have to figure out the MIKE and the safety spots. I think today's NFL really stresses those positions. If you really want to defend it well, you will need players that are smart and can do a lot of different things. If you don't have those type of players, then it allows the offense more options.

The scheme doesn't really concern me. What concerns me more is that Marinelli thinks we can skirt by with margin safety talent and that when you play zone, you'll need a pass rush. If we don't have Hardy, that hurts the pass rush and Marinelli is averse to blitzing to get that pressure with zone coverage.

I agree that the entire middle of the defense needs improvement. But Marinelli is not as rigid about the scheme as reputed to be, affecting changes year to year to combat the lack of talent and lack of QB pressure. This past season, theRe was so man to man coverage I almost didn't believe what I was seeing at first. Marinelli also blitzed more than I have seen him blitz ever. He loves to have the LB'S blitz the gaps on either side of the DTs, or at least show blitz. But against the Commanders he went crazy the with the blitz, at least for Marinelli.

If the Cowboys really want to invest in this D scheme they need a guy who has success with the D but not so close to Marinelli so new ideas can be shared without fear. Someone like Gene Chizik, a guy who's had great success with the 4-3 under and even Tampa 2 at the collegiate level. Won a championship with it at Auburn. And Chizik has coached every position group, including the secondary.

 

[texbumthelife]

Would you say they played a soft man coverage. They let them have some room underneath but won't get beat deep. It didn't seem a like an aggressive man to man press Defense.

And if that is the case, do they need CBs or FSs more and where should BJones play?

Can McClain do the job. He seemed a step too slow on the coverage and sometimes even got in the way.
Jack might really be the key if he is athletic and fluid in coverage as advertised.

I don't think the Cowboys coaches think Carr is a good enough athlete to press and then turn and run. I think that has a lot to do with why those don't press him. They actually let Mo play quite a bit of press this season and that's where he looked the best.

I love Byron Jones. I think you wait and see how you look after FA and the draft and that dictates where you put him. OScan and Jones outside would give us the versatility to run any scheme.

I haven't liked McClain from day one. I think he is a 3-4 MLB. He doesn't excel when asked to play in space. He hesitates and spends far too much time running around blockers, particularly for someone his size.

I won't get into who we should draft, but Myles Jack would be a dream come true for Marinelli. He has a lot of Derrick Brooks in him.

 

[CyberB0b]

Was that zone and the CB handed him off to the safety that wasn't there or was it man and the CB just forgot to keep covering

Based on the movement of the corners, it looks like they both had deep coverage responsibilities. Looks like a bad defensive call for that situation, and worse execution.

 

[texbumthelife]

Was that zone and the CB handed him off to the safety that wasn't there or was it man and the CB just forgot to keep covering

Linebackers faked a blitz and then didn't get back in time, so the safety spies the TE for WAY too long. The CB played it right, the safety and LB's were out of position. It was a blown coverage, not a bad call.

 

[texbumthelife]

Based on the movement of the corners, it looks like they both had deep coverage responsibilities. Looks like a bad defensive call for that situation, and worse execution.

Both corners start to sit around the 10 yard mark. Watch the CB on the other (close) side.

 

[texbumthelife]

I don't understand why anyone would want Fairley. His motor and play or horribly inconsistent and that's when he's healthy. He's never played 16 games and even got benched while still in Detroit.

Stay far, far away.

 

[jobberone]

so why was McClain playing there ?

at 6-4 #260 ?

Because he's primarily a thumper used on downs with a higher than usual risk of run.

 

[Nightman]

As has already been stated, the SDE on a Marinelli DL is still supposed to get upfield first. He needs to push the pocket from the outside, in. The problem is, the SDE usually has to take on more blockers, and sees more running plays, so it just happens to be your best run defending or beefiest DE usually.

This sole purpose of the 3T in this defense is to collapse the pocket from the inside. If you're not getting disruption from your 3T, you're going to have a hard time in this defense.

Consider the 1T on a Marinelli line, like the SDT. His first responsibility is still getting upfield, however, he sets up over the G/C so the C can't immediately double down on your 1T, who is usually your better pass rusher. For this reason, the position necessitates a bigger body who can hold the point of attack, while still getting push and making the C account for him. You can't simply put a big body here and hope for success because, as we've seen, he won't keep the C honest and your 1T loses all leverage playing off G.

WDE first and foremost needs a lightning fast first step. He needs to set the OT back on his heels, hopefully creating gaps and space because, when properly manned, the G/C combo have to account for your 1T. One of the biggest and most unheralded values of this is your WLB has a clear view of the QB. WDE is usually your most athletic pass rusher, and many times, your best athlete.

Can't just be a run stuffer. This guy has to have the ability to carry a TE up the seem and/or transition into the intermediate zone. He has to be as smart as he is strong, because he is the only person with a 3-man read. He has to read the TE going in/out/up, then the RB, then the WR. In base defense, this guy is one of the most important players, not just a run stopper. Fortunately, teams don't spend a lot of time in base offenses anymore, but this concept and the difficulty finding the right player for it, is one of the reasons the 12 and 22 formations (two tight ends) are so difficult to defend.

First things first isn't being a thumper, it's being able to diagnose. This guy needs to be very heady and athletic. If he misdiagnoses a play or bites on play action, the middle of the field is going to be wide open. He has to be able to transition from a back pedal to attacking downhill effortlessly and without expending excess energy or giving up more ground. When playing the run, your MLB has to maintain his gap responsibility. If you have a Mike who overruns plays in this defense, there are going to be gaping cutback lanes.

Will needs to be a heat seeking missile. He is rarely going to have under coverage, but if he does, he can't hesitate. Likewise, he has to attack the edge without giving it up, or weak-sde runs and cutbacks will murder you. Will has the most flexibility in this defense and if you have the right guy here, someone who wants to play 100mph every down, without losing contain, you're going to get some good splash plays.

I wouldn't say that CB's are interchangeable. Ronde Barber absolutely made those Buccanneers secondaries. What Marinelli wants, is guys who have very quick, fluid hips. This means they change direction exceptionally well, without giving up ground. They must be willing to attack ball carriers attempting to get outside--I can't emphasize this enough.

Deeper than the deepest in his half, correct. Not generally a position of great impact, if played right. However, if you don't have a line that can get pressure, you better have safeties who can run, because the WR's know the CB is going to release them. If your safety can't run and cover, you're going to have a long day (without pressure).

See FS. In a traditional Tampa-2, The safeties are mostly interchangeable, but your SS needs to be able to handle a TE down the seem.

Needs to be lightning quick and physical. Needs to be a very willing and able tackler.

Just my $.02. Hope it helps.

This is all more than helpful and shows how much I thought I knew but didn't.

3T- all set with TCrawford
SDE- DLawrence really came on
MIKE- time to move on from RoMc. Hitch is a decent back-up but not the answer. Jack/JSmith
WILL- SLee is perfect
FS- want a vet like Weddle with the smarts or a Dashaun Gipson with some ball skills
WDE- GHardy and RGregory make a great duo
CB1- BJones
SS- Church/Wilcox fight it out
SAM- Hitch is OK for early downs, should be better at coverage
1T- needs upgrade.....GHardy slides over for max pass rush