Understanding Marinelli's 4-3

[BAT]

Was that zone and the CB handed him off to the safety that wasn't there or was it man and the CB just forgot to keep covering

Looked like Carr (or was that Jones) forgot they were in quarters coverage and thought he was handing WR off to safety. Either that or the LB'S did not get back in time to cover short middle and safety got caught in no man's land, stay on the slot receiver or help over the top.

Tend to think it was the corner that screwed up but Cowboys truly suck in zone coverage so who knows.

 

[texbumthelife]

Looked like Carr (or was that Jones) forgot they were in quarters coverage and thought he was handing WR off to safety. Either that or the LB'S did not get back in time to cover short middle and safety got caught in no man's land, stay on the slot receiver or help over the top.

Tend to think it was the corner that screwed up but Cowboys truly suck in zone coverage so who knows.

The only reason I am putting that on the safeties, is because the corner on the near sight site's at around the ten years mark too. Look like LB/S issue to me.

 

[texbumthelife]

This is all more than helpful and shows how much I thought I knew but didn't.

3T- all set with TCrawford
SDE- DLawrence really came on
MIKE- time to move on from RoMc. Hitch is a decent back-up but not the answer. Jack/JSmith
WILL- SLee is perfect
FS- want a vet like Weddle with the smarts or a Dashaun Gipson with some ball skills
WDE- GHardy and RGregory make a great duo
CB1- BJones
SS- Church/Wilcox fight it out
SAM- Hitch is OK for early downs, should be better at coverage
1T- needs upgrade.....GHardy slides over for max pass rush

I'll say man, until he got hurt, Jaylon Smith was my pick. He can play all three linebacker spots and WDE.

What this team needs to do, before it addresses talent at all, is decide what its identity is going to be. They haven't had talent to fit their system for years, because they keep changing it. Stop throwing bodies and names at the problem. Start going after guys that fit the scheme.

 

[jnday]

This. The Cowboys have changed schemes 3x under the Kiffin/Marinelli regime. 2014 was more of a Cover 3 with some man sprinkled in. This year was more Cover 1 with zone sprinkled in early in the year. Later in the year, they started going to more two deep zones, like Cover 2 and 4.

Marinelli is really out of his element. We need someone fresh here. This play should never happen with this coverage.

I think you are right about Rod. It seems like he can't find a scheme that gets the most out of the players that he has to work with. The players are another problem that needs to be addressed. Carr is a good example of one the problems . He takes a big chunk of the cap space and offers little production. Crawford was another bad signing.

 

[DandyDon52]

Sean Lee is just one of the least durable players I can ever remember. In theory the Will is covered up more than the Mike, but it's not like the Mike is getting Guards in his face right away like an ILB in a 3-4 scheme. The Mike is still covered pretty well.

Also, if your Will is expected to be more active in the box and in the run game than your Mike it doesn't make sense to move someone to Will to save their body. The Will is going to be involved in WAY more run stops than the Mike, thus more high end collisions. I think Will was just Seans more natural spot, he thrives in sifting through trash and being restricted within the box. He's a see ball get ball guy all the way. All that "save his body" talk was just Jerry speak not knowing what he's talking about IMHO. Marinelli knew Sean could be a better Will, had nothing to do with injury risk.

Sean lee got all his int's playing mike, so was it better for the team to take him off mike ??
he is also athletic enough to cover deep although not great at it.

 

[jobberone]

Defenses don't really do anything most of the time anymore if you're speaking in general terms. They try to match up on personnel along with down, distance and game situation.

When in a four man DL they are generally going to shoot the gap from an under position on a passing down. You may have 1-2 players, generally the DTs, shoot and hold at times which does have gap control. There is by definition no gap control when a player shoots the gap.

We play more nickel as a base with our LBers than not but this is again a game to game as well as play to play situation. As others said we don't really play a Tampa 2. We do use our LBers to fill the holes since the DTs are often shooting the gaps. Someone has to be at home as teams are going to run to daylight to those unoccupied gaps.

This is important since many here don't understand the role of the DTs in our defense and wonder why the RBs are running to where they aren't. They think the DTs are being driven out of the hole when in fact they are leaving the gaps a fair amount. And of course they do get blocked at times, too.

In the 50s Paul Brown began to split his OL further apart and started using early ZBS techniques. RBs lined up deep and ran to where the defense was taken or 'holes'. Supposedly this is where the term run to daylight began. It gave the league fits and the only team to beat it much were the NY Giants with one Tom Landry as a safety. Tom later developed the Flex Defense to defeat the Browns and other teams which copied Brown and defeat the rushing attack. Tom also tweeked the 4-3 (he didn't actually invent it BTW) into what it was for a very long time and what many people still envision it as.

Our LBers fill the holes given up by the DL. But we aren't in a true 4-3 as much as 50% of the time. We run all kinds of pass coverage from the Nickel, Big Nickel, Dime, and Big Dime depending on the offense, down, distance, and game etc. Seattle and teams copying them use all kinds of 'zone' coverage involving DBs and LBs as well as even DL. Teams roll coverage and use inverted and regular schemes with diamonds and blocks of coverage. It's way more complicated than my rudimentary knowledge.

There are books on all of this and plenty of internet fodder out there.

So in essence there is no simple answer to the OP's question.

 

[jnday]

Defenses don't really do anything most of the time anymore if you're speaking in general terms. They try to match up on personnel along with down, distance and game situation.

When in a four man DL they are generally going to shoot the gap from an under position on a passing down. You may have 1-2 players, generally the DTs, shoot and hold at times which does have gap control. There is by definition no gap control when a player shoots the gap.

We play more nickel as a base with our LBers than not but this is again a game to game as well as play to play situation. As others said we don't really play a Tampa 2. We do use our LBers to fill the holes since the DTs are often shooting the gaps. Someone has to be at home as teams are going to run to daylight to those unoccupied gaps.

This is important since many here don't understand the role of the DTs in our defense and wonder why the RBs are running to where they aren't. They think the DTs are being driven out of the hole when in fact they are leaving the gaps a fair amount. And of course they do get blocked at times, too.

In the 50s Paul Brown began to split his OL further apart and started using early ZBS techniques. RBs lined up deep and ran to where the defense was taken or 'holes'. Supposedly this is where the term run to daylight began. It gave the league fits and the only team to beat it much were the NY Giants with one Tom Landry as a safety. Tom later developed the Flex Defense to defeat the Browns and other teams which copied Brown and defeat the rushing attack. Tom also tweeked the 4-3 (he didn't actually invent it BTW) into what it was for a very long time and what many people still envision it as.

Our LBers fill the holes given up by the DL. But we aren't in a true 4-3 as much as 50% of the time. We run all kinds of pass coverage from the Nickel, Big Nickel, Dime, and Big Dime depending on the offense, down, distance, and game etc. Seattle and teams copying them use all kinds of 'zone' coverage involving DBs and LBs as well as even DL. Teams roll coverage and use inverted and regular schemes with diamonds and blocks of coverage. It's way more complicated than my rudimentary knowledge.

There are books on all of this and plenty of internet fodder out there.

So in essence there is no simple answer to the OP's question.

This is a good source of information for the current defense . Good post Jobber.

 

[CCBoy]

I agree, jobber...some good perspective.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

This past season, theRe was so man to man coverage I almost didn't believe what I was seeing at first.

I think he went with man coverage because that's what he felt was best for our corners. If Scandrick didn't get hurt, probably would have played more zone. But, I think we are limited in what we can do coverage wise more because of the safeties than anything. Wilcox is terrible in zone and can't tackle...a double whammy. Church is at best a serviceable short zone coverage safety that can tackle. With Byron at safety, that instantly provided us with much more options. We could have him play man, short, deep and intermediate zone coverage or isolate him on a big, star receiver like Gronk or Brandon Marshall. I just wish we had some versatility at SS and that's why I hope we try to sign Weddle.





YR

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Was that zone and the CB handed him off to the safety that wasn't there or was it man and the CB just forgot to keep covering

Looks like zone. Look at the corner at the bottom of the screen. He's turned inward.

It looks like the safety was supposed to go deep but locked into the receiver that was straight ahead. That receiver was more of the corner's responsibility. Good play call by the Skins as they forced the safety to have enough speed to get to Jackson (I think that's who it is) and that is definitely in their favor.




YR

 

[Nightman]

Defenses don't really do anything most of the time anymore if you're speaking in general terms. They try to match up on personnel along with down, distance and game situation.

When in a four man DL they are generally going to shoot the gap from an under position on a passing down. You may have 1-2 players, generally the DTs, shoot and hold at times which does have gap control. There is by definition no gap control when a player shoots the gap.

We play more nickel as a base with our LBers than not but this is again a game to game as well as play to play situation. As others said we don't really play a Tampa 2. We do use our LBers to fill the holes since the DTs are often shooting the gaps. Someone has to be at home as teams are going to run to daylight to those unoccupied gaps.

This is important since many here don't understand the role of the DTs in our defense and wonder why the RBs are running to where they aren't. They think the DTs are being driven out of the hole when in fact they are leaving the gaps a fair amount. And of course they do get blocked at times, too.

In the 50s Paul Brown began to split his OL further apart and started using early ZBS techniques. RBs lined up deep and ran to where the defense was taken or 'holes'. Supposedly this is where the term run to daylight began. It gave the league fits and the only team to beat it much were the NY Giants with one Tom Landry as a safety. Tom later developed the Flex Defense to defeat the Browns and other teams which copied Brown and defeat the rushing attack. Tom also tweeked the 4-3 (he didn't actually invent it BTW) into what it was for a very long time and what many people still envision it as.

Our LBers fill the holes given up by the DL. But we aren't in a true 4-3 as much as 50% of the time. We run all kinds of pass coverage from the Nickel, Big Nickel, Dime, and Big Dime depending on the offense, down, distance, and game etc. Seattle and teams copying them use all kinds of 'zone' coverage involving DBs and LBs as well as even DL. Teams roll coverage and use inverted and regular schemes with diamonds and blocks of coverage. It's way more complicated than my rudimentary knowledge.

There are books on all of this and plenty of internet fodder out there.

So in essence there is no simple answer to the OP's question.

Thanks for the input. Just trying to figure out what type of players to target in FA and the Draft and what DAL is actually looking for. I always hear about great players that don't fit in Marinelli's scheme. I understand that 3-4 OLBs like Von Miller and DWare may not be big enough to be be 4-3 DEs but what makes a good SAM or WDE. Why do we go cheap at 1T, FS and SAM?

The consensus seems to think that Myles Jack would make the biggest impact at the MIKE. People like the hard hits from Ro McClain but he is a step or two slow in coverage.

If we can't get Jack then maybe we get Jaylon Smith at 34 because of his injury. We have had success with injured LBs taking a redshirt in the past.

But would a Bosa or Nkemndiche flourish here. OR a Fairley or Knighton?
Should we pay top picks and top dollars for CBs or FSs?

 

[Floatyworm]

When are people gonna realize Marinelli has no clue what he is doing...and is just making it up as he goes along?

 

[Nightman]

When are people gonna realize Marinelli has no clue what he is doing...and is just making it up as he goes along?

I don't think that is true at all.

He has had to adopt to key injuries and to the personnel he has been given.

We just need to all be on the same page. If Carr isn't built for press coverage then dump his expensive butt. Same with Church and McClain.

 

[BAT]

When are people gonna realize Marinelli has no clue what he is doing...and is just making it up as he goes along?

That could be the case but I tend to doubt this with so many testimonials from current and former players/coaches. But how will we know how good he is if he never gets any real talent to work with. Starting secondary is sub par, DL has consisted of guys off the street at times and the LB corps seems to change every year. Even the pro bowlers that were on the roster (Ware, Hatcher, Ratliff) when Marinelli first got here never played together at any time due to injuries.

 

[Seven]

Urlacher and Briggs were what made that defense a force. Need special LBs for this system to thrive.

Dallas has those IMO.

One's oft injured and the other doesn't take anything seriously.

Lee and Rolando could be awesome.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I would love some help better understanding the roles in DAL's defense. This is my basic layman's view of the defense and may be 100% incorrect. Any input would be appreciated.

Most people will call it a version of the Tampa 2 from Monte Kifkin and Tony Dungy but there are some variations under Marinelli.

The DL is pure penetrate. He wants quickness and disruption
Strong Side DE- has run responsibilities so he must be big enough to maintain the edge. But he also has to get to the passer. Prototype 6-5 280 lbs
DT- also the 3 Technique, meaning he lines up in the gap between the OG and OT. Usually the star of the DL in the Warren Sapp role. 6-3 290 lbs
DT- also 1T or Under T. Plays cocked off of the C. Needs to be stout but and to draw double teams but penetration is still the key. Not as big as most NTs in the 3-4. 6-0 300lbs
Weak Side DE- pure speed rusher, not as strong agaisnt the run. 6-5 265 lbs
Strong OLB- SAM- needs to stuff run on early downs. Usually replaced by Nickel DB unless he is a rare athlete. Has to cover TEs and RBs. 6-3 250lbs
Middle LB- MIKE- bruiser, 3 down thumper that has to take on run game head on. Has short middle zone responsibility in pass coverage. 6-3 255lbs
Weakside OLB- WILL- needs to be good in coverage with speed. Free to attack run game from OL. 6-2 240lbs

CBs- are usually interchangeable and under Marinelli run a lot of zone. They don't get beat deep but don't make many plays on the ball either. Over-rated in this scheme unless they are playing man or press. 6-0 190lb
FS- plays deep, responsible for half the field on long balls. Again under-rated in Marinelli's D. 6-2 200lbs
SS- helps with the run, big hitter has deep responsibility. 6-2 210lbs
Nickel CB- replaces SAM on throwing downs and covers slot WRs. Has to be versatile. 6-1 195lb

...................DLaw-SDE.........TCrawford-3T............FA/TMcClain- 1T...........GHardy- WDE.....
...................Russell-SDE.......DIrving-3T...............GHardy- Nickel DT.........RGregory-WDE..
...........Hitchens- SAM..............................RMcClain-MIKE.....................SLee-WILL..................
...........OScan- Nickel CB........................Hitchens-MIKE......................Gachkar-WILL.............

BJones-CB..................Wilcox-SS...............................Weddle-FS............................OScan-CB
TMitchell-CB...............Church-SS..............................Heath-FS...............................FA/Draft-CB


What FAs/Draft picks would fit at which positons? Obviously I like BJones as a CB but I understand he might be the FS.

If no Hardy then Bosa or Nkemdiche.
I like Nick Fairley at 1T or Raji or Knighton. Draft pick can be had in deep DT draft.
No McClain then Jack or JSmith, Scooby Wright later
Ramsey can be a CB/FS solution. Also Kearse or Joseph for SS

While this is all true in a conventional wisdom manner, this is not how we ran it last year. He flipped the line with Hardy and Hayden over the LT and LG/C. He also never really played Hayden or whoever else at that cocked nose. We also didn't play much zone coverage and the robber positions were problematic.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I want Sam Hill from Tennessee and Janoris Jenkins from the LA Rams.

I am curious to see how far Nkemdiche will fall.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Defenses don't really do anything most of the time anymore if you're speaking in general terms. They try to match up on personnel along with down, distance and game situation.

When in a four man DL they are generally going to shoot the gap from an under position on a passing down. You may have 1-2 players, generally the DTs, shoot and hold at times which does have gap control. There is by definition no gap control when a player shoots the gap.

We play more nickel as a base with our LBers than not but this is again a game to game as well as play to play situation. As others said we don't really play a Tampa 2. We do use our LBers to fill the holes since the DTs are often shooting the gaps. Someone has to be at home as teams are going to run to daylight to those unoccupied gaps.

This is important since many here don't understand the role of the DTs in our defense and wonder why the RBs are running to where they aren't. They think the DTs are being driven out of the hole when in fact they are leaving the gaps a fair amount. And of course they do get blocked at times, too.

In the 50s Paul Brown began to split his OL further apart and started using early ZBS techniques. RBs lined up deep and ran to where the defense was taken or 'holes'. Supposedly this is where the term run to daylight began. It gave the league fits and the only team to beat it much were the NY Giants with one Tom Landry as a safety. Tom later developed the Flex Defense to defeat the Browns and other teams which copied Brown and defeat the rushing attack. Tom also tweeked the 4-3 (he didn't actually invent it BTW) into what it was for a very long time and what many people still envision it as.

Our LBers fill the holes given up by the DL. But we aren't in a true 4-3 as much as 50% of the time. We run all kinds of pass coverage from the Nickel, Big Nickel, Dime, and Big Dime depending on the offense, down, distance, and game etc. Seattle and teams copying them use all kinds of 'zone' coverage involving DBs and LBs as well as even DL. Teams roll coverage and use inverted and regular schemes with diamonds and blocks of coverage. It's way more complicated than my rudimentary knowledge.

There are books on all of this and plenty of internet fodder out there.

So in essence there is no simple answer to the OP's question.

Irvin and Russell missed their 'screws,' what Marinelli calls his reads/assignments, but not so much the starters. When 98 hurt his left shoulder and before they flipped the tackles he was getting pushed around badly. Hayden's nickname is velcro in scouting circles because his inability to get off blocks. When I heard that last I couldn't stop laughing. Regardless a double team meant Hayden going for a ride just about every time after the first quarter.

It is fluid as he will move them around gaps. Between tackles getting washed and LB missing their fills it was a train wreck on inside runs for sure. Watching McClain get over to his fill as his DT are coming back him was a regular occurrence.

 

[Nightman]

While this is all true in a conventional wisdom manner, this is not how we ran it last year. He flipped the line with Hardy and Hayden over the LT and LG/C. He also never really played Hayden or whoever else at that cocked nose. We also didn't play much zone coverage and the robber positions were problematic.

That is what I was wondering. What is Hardy's best role? I think he is best as a DE but he is just big enough and capable enough to move inside, but I think that wore on him.

Is there a place to see breakdowns snaps for the DL?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That is what I was wondering. What is Hardy's best role? I think he is best as a DE but he is just big enough and capable enough to move inside, but I think that wore on him.

Is there a place to see breakdowns snaps for the DL?

Well he flipped the DT really and I think it was to get 98's bum shoulder on the outside more than anything. What I think wore on Hardy was playing next to the worst starting DT in the league over the course of the past 3 years to end the year.

I think you can go to Sturms defense articles and he breaks them down by game. PFF does it too I think if you want to pay for their premium service.