Understanding Marinelli's 4-3

FuzzyLumpkins

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I have more time so I thought I'd reply to this again; more so to the general audience than to you. I'm hoping some here will take the time to read.

I can't emphasize enough the difference in our defense and Seattle's which is what Marinelli wants to do more of. He just doesn't have the personnel and not many do. I mention this because some (not you) don't understand how the defense works apparently.

If you shoot the gap then you have abandoned the gap and any thought of defending it. We don't play a lot of one gap control whether it is hold or shoot and hold, etc. We emphasize shooting the gaps.

If you hold you don't penetrate at all. There are many techniques as well as subtle differences in alignment in the gap but basically you wait on the play to come to you. If you shoot and hold then you penetrate between the C and G (usually for the 1) and then stop there. This removes the double team but leaves you stuck in that gap. Most RBs can run thru arm tackles so it is imperative that everyone shoot and hold their gap well or lanes will be introduced. If you shoot the gap then that says it all. Your job is to penetrate past the OL and disrupt the play. You are in the offensives backfield.

People are constantly complaining about Hayden's inability to maintain a gap. Well, most of the time that isn't his job. His job is to get thru the gap and breakdown the play. And there is a very short list of players who can play a one gap and maintain gap control when asked to esp if they are double teamed.

In a ZBS you often aren't running to a pre snap prescribed hole. The OL can ride the player and let him create the hole for the RB. This is easier when the player is shooting the gap. The OL must move his man before he gets out of the gap OR hope the RB is able to run in another direction. Otherwise the defense generally wins and often for a TFL.

I am not the biggest fan of this aspect of Marinelli's defense. And TBF he isn't blind to the weaknesses of shooting the gaps. The better defense is to vary the DL schemes and techniques to keep the OL as honest as possible and guessing. He is forced to run this variant of the one gap so much to generate the disruption because we don't have enough pressure playing it more straight.

Hayden is not the best guy around. He at best a decent one tech on a DL that is not yet ripe but a work in progress. He is also not the crappy player most here have perpetuated with loud but uninformed voices. He's in my estimation marginal. He's a guy you can put in there in rotation and not get killed play to play. He is upgradeable and my educated guess is Marinelli would love to have a very disruptive 1/3 in there.

IMO, Hardy and Crawford are good or better 3s. Both can play the 5. You can even rotate them some snaps as a 1. I'd love a dominating big guy to play some 1/3. Remember there isn't a huge difference in a 1 and a 3 in our defense. Both are lining up in a single gap and shooting it. There are differences in alignment within the gap for a 1 and 3 but they aren't that different if just shooting.

The 1T is a bit different in that I am not sure that Marinelli asks him to disengage immediately once he gets the shoulder. All other linemen do but the 1 will try to stack the line. Lots of bull rushes.

This is all base of course. In nickel Hayden in there just pisses me off now.

I don't think the hyperbole regarding Hayden is untoward any way you slice it. I look across the NFL and I cannot find a worse starting 1T/NT out there. Most of the guys who are marginal as you term it aren't used that much. Then you compare him to the elite like Star, Solial, Suh or Ngata and you get a feel for the spectrum of talent. He is worse than Wilber or Wilcox so he is at the very least the worst regular on our defense. He does get 'killed' from play to play.

It seems every middle run either is a double team where he gets shoved back at least a couple yards if not washed off the line completely or a single block where he is stood up and cannot disengage. I'm surprised when he actually holds the poa or gets an arm free to try and make an arm tackle. Peeling off and giving chase doesn't do it for me. I'd rather have another LB at that point.

He's symbolic to me of the Cowboys FO roster ineptitude much like Killer Davis and Corey PRoctor were before him.
 

jobberone

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The 1T is a bit different in that I am not sure that Marinelli asks him to disengage immediately once he gets the shoulder. All other linemen do but the 1 will try to stack the line. Lots of bull rushes.

This is all base of course. In nickel Hayden in there just pisses me off now.

I don't think the hyperbole regarding Hayden is untoward any way you slice it. I look across the NFL and I cannot find a worse starting 1T/NT out there. Most of the guys who are marginal as you term it aren't used that much. Then you compare him to the elite like Star, Solial, Suh or Ngata and you get a feel for the spectrum of talent. He is worse than Wilber or Wilcox so he is at the very least the worst regular on our defense. He does get 'killed' from play to play.

It seems every middle run either is a double team where he gets shoved back at least a couple yards if not washed off the line completely or a single block where he is stood up and cannot disengage. I'm surprised when he actually holds the poa or gets an arm free to try and make an arm tackle. Peeling off and giving chase doesn't do it for me. I'd rather have another LB at that point.

He's symbolic to me of the Cowboys FO roster ineptitude much like Killer Davis and Corey PRoctor were before him.

We are talking a % of snaps for differing techniques and alignments which varies greatly. We do not shoot and hold much at all. Of that I'm certain.

But he's marginal and his large number of snaps are multifactorial from injury to lack of depth to pressing needs elsewhere. He's far from elite. As I said he's very upgradeable. I still say some of what people see is a product of the weakness of the base defense. OTOH a part of the reason we play that defense is a product of a lack of pressure and the abilities of the players.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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We are talking a % of snaps for differing techniques and alignments which varies greatly. We do not shoot and hold much at all. Of that I'm certain.

But he's marginal and his large number of snaps are multifactorial from injury to lack of depth to pressing needs elsewhere. He's far from elite. As I said he's very upgradeable. I still say some of what people see is a product of the weakness of the base defense. OTOH a part of the reason we play that defense is a product of a lack of pressure and the abilities of the players.

Hayden gets pinned and washed so much it's really hard for me to tell what he is actually trying to do. I understand why Marinelli likes him; he plays balls to the wall from snap to whistle. In limited snaps he can be somewhat effective. He knows his handwork as I've seen him switch shoulders when he's trying to hold the poa. He just lacks the necessary upper body strength to disengage if the OL gets inside his pads.
 

jobberone

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Hayden gets pinned and washed so much it's really hard for me to tell what he is actually trying to do. I understand why Marinelli likes him; he plays balls to the wall from snap to whistle. In limited snaps he can be somewhat effective. He knows his handwork as I've seen him switch shoulders when he's trying to hold the poa. He just lacks the necessary upper body strength to disengage if the OL gets inside his pads.

He's not an anchor and never will be. He's not going to take on double teams and win much. And he's not going to get a lot of push. He should be a marginal DT in this league and not make many 53s. I'm not a fan of the player in any sense. I don't even care that he hustles. Everyone should hustle. None of that changes the fact that if a player gets caught moving in the gap he's probably going to be taken for a ride. It's just plain physics. As you say you lose the shoulder and you have exposed your flank. Best be gone before they get their hands on you. But you are not going to win that battle every time and you will look like crap when you get caught in the gap.

At some point either this year or next he will not make the roster. If McClain is ready to go and they keep Hardy then I'd say he's far out on the bubble already.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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He's not an anchor and never will be. He's not going to take on double teams and win much. And he's not going to get a lot of push. He should be a marginal DT in this league and not make many 53s. I'm not a fan of the player in any sense. I don't even care that he hustles. Everyone should hustle. None of that changes the fact that if a player gets caught moving in the gap he's probably going to be taken for a ride. It's just plain physics. As you say you lose the shoulder and you have exposed your flank. Best be gone before they get their hands on you. But you are not going to win that battle every time and you will look like crap when you get caught in the gap.

At some point either this year or next he will not make the roster. If McClain is ready to go and they keep Hardy then I'd say he's far out on the bubble already.

I'm with you on everyone should hustle. Unfortunately talented big uglies are so scarce that you have to reinforce the ethic in a lot of guys. From that vantage point I can understand Hayden being held up as the ideal like Marinelli does.

I've tried taking Marinelli at face value regarding his take on Hayden. Believe me, hearing him on Talking Cowboys discuss Hayden and sing all manner of praise caused me no small amount of cognitive dissonance. Ultimately I have to go with nullius en verba though. I do know that Marinelli is a fan of military training style mind games.
 

jobberone

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I'm with you on everyone should hustle. Unfortunately talented big uglies are so scarce that you have to reinforce the ethic in a lot of guys. From that vantage point I can understand Hayden being held up as the ideal like Marinelli does.

I've tried taking Marinelli at face value regarding his take on Hayden. Believe me, hearing him on Talking Cowboys discuss Hayden and sing all manner of praise caused me no small amount of cognitive dissonance. Ultimately I have to go with nullius en verba though. I do know that Marinelli is a fan of military training style mind games.

I take what the coaches say with a grain of salt. I don't see much need to call a player out in public. I think you can subtly say some things at times. They probably get an ear full in the film room.
 
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