Understanding Marinelli's 4-3

jobberone

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Thanks for the input. Just trying to figure out what type of players to target in FA and the Draft and what DAL is actually looking for. I always hear about great players that don't fit in Marinelli's scheme. I understand that 3-4 OLBs like Von Miller and DWare may not be big enough to be be 4-3 DEs but what makes a good SAM or WDE. Why do we go cheap at 1T, FS and SAM?

The consensus seems to think that Myles Jack would make the biggest impact at the MIKE. People like the hard hits from Ro McClain but he is a step or two slow in coverage.

If we can't get Jack then maybe we get Jaylon Smith at 34 because of his injury. We have had success with injured LBs taking a redshirt in the past.

But would a Bosa or Nkemndiche flourish here. OR a Fairley or Knighton?
Should we pay top picks and top dollars for CBs or FSs?

They are always looking for prototypes but that doesn't always equate to an impact player. I think Ware or Miller would thrive here as a WDE. Miller is perhaps more suited to play SDE. Ware is a bit of a liability in the run.

General wisdom is don't take an interior OL, TE or S that high. The only LBers taken that high are edge rushers generally. I wouldn't spend a 4 on any other LBer unless it was a player like Miller, Ware, etc.

I'd be looking at QB first although only one deserves a top ten pick. Not saying two others won't go high though. I'd only draft Goff that high. I'd move up to 2 and take him but I don't think you can do that.

Bosa and Jack wouldn't normally be top ten picks but are in a weak draft. Bosa maybe. Jack will rip the combine up and it will be hard to keep Jerry away from these shiny toys.

I'd take Ogdah, Buckner, Ramsey or Hargraves. Maybe one of the other DTs. Treadwell will flash before Jerry's eyes, too. He'd be worth a top ten pick.

Best to trade down 2-4 and take one of these players. I'm ok with Bosa there as well.
 

jobberone

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Irvin and Russell missed their 'screws,' what Marinelli calls his reads/assignments, but not so much the starters. When 98 hurt his left shoulder and before they flipped the tackles he was getting pushed around badly. Hayden's nickname is velcro in scouting circles because his inability to get off blocks. When I heard that last I couldn't stop laughing. Regardless a double team meant Hayden going for a ride just about every time after the first quarter.

It is fluid as he will move them around gaps. Between tackles getting washed and LB missing their fills it was a train wreck on inside runs for sure. Watching McClain get over to his fill as his DT are coming back him was a regular occurrence.

It's not supposed to be the end of the world for the 1 to occupy two blockers even if ridden out of the play. The defense is designed for the LBers to fill. We are a little too soft against the run including the inside. That can be shored up though and it is not what is beating us anyway although we do have too many suboptimal 3rds. Even when we have them where we want on 3rd we still give up too many firsts. Still wasn't what killed us.

It's good to look at this stuff but the real culprits were not enough offense then not enough pass rush and pass defense.

The mantra is edge rusher, S, CB and cover LB. Throw in backup QB, co-1 WR, and hybrid TE. Finally they should try to get a dev QB.
 

perrykemp

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I don't understand the infatuation some of you have with Weddle.

The guy is not good anymore.

Remember 3 years ago when everybody on CZ was excited about the idea that Michael Huff was <likely> coming to Dallas -- ie he was a unrestricted FA and wanted to come back to his home state?

There was a big debate here on the topic. Huff had was just about to turn 30, however, he had notched his first Pro Bowl just two years earlier?

He ended up going to the Ravens instead and and played a grand total of 10 games and was completely out of football just a year later.

I'm not saying Weddle is exactly the same case, however, I think it's buyer beware on safeties in their 30's cut loose by their existing teams.
 

jobberone

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I like retreaded long CBs to play FS. That's where experience helps.
 

Nightman

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I don't understand the infatuation some of you have with Weddle.

The guy is not good anymore.

I want him more for his brains. He knows where he is supposed to be.

Having OScan back will help and BJones looks like a keeper but our 2016 secondary will look a lot different. No time for learning curves.
 

jobberone

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That is what I was wondering. What is Hardy's best role? I think he is best as a DE but he is just big enough and capable enough to move inside, but I think that wore on him.

Is there a place to see breakdowns snaps for the DL?

I see him as a 3/5. He's capable of both. I distinguish between a 5 and an edge rusher.
 

LatinMind

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I always hear CBs can be had for cheap in this scheme, but we keep spending big bucks on Carr and top draft picks for Mo and BJones. For no INTs it seems we should go cheap for bend but don't break CBs.

Carr and Claiborne were drafted and signed for Ryans defense not Kiffins. And Byron Jones is already the starter at FS.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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It's not supposed to be the end of the world for the 1 to occupy two blockers even if ridden out of the play. The defense is designed for the LBers to fill. We are a little too soft against the run including the inside. That can be shored up though and it is not what is beating us anyway although we do have too many suboptimal 3rds. Even we we have them where we want on 3rd we still give up too many firsts. Still wasn't what killed us.

It's good to look at this stuff but the real culprits were not enough offense then not enough pass rush and pass defense.

The mantra is edge rusher, S, CB and cover LB. Throw in backup QB, co-1 WR, and hybrid TE. Finally they should try to get a dev QB.

It's not supposed to but its alot easier to fill when the DT are winning the poa. Our LB were having to scramble on every inside run and that made it that much more difficult.

What killed us is a matter of debate but each of our division foes had those inside runs integral to their game plan. I'm a bit old school when it comes to this because football is both mano-a-mano and an emotional game. Momentum is real and getting run on right up the middle is demoralizing. DC start deviating from the gameplan and cheating to try and stop it.

I put it right there with pass coverage in the middle of the field and replacing Hardy.

Hayden upgrade
Hardy replacement
SAM upgrade
SS upgrade
At least 1 starting quality corner.
quality QB
quality RB
speed at all skill positions.


That is just to get starters and key reserves and speaks nothing of depth. This 4-12 team isn't close.
 

BAT

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Remember 3 years ago when everybody on CZ was excited about the idea that Michael Huff was <likely> coming to Dallas -- ie he was a unrestricted FA and wanted to come back to his home state?

There was a big debate here on the topic. Huff had was just about to turn 30, however, he had notched his first Pro Bowl just two years earlier?

He ended up going to the Ravens instead and and played a grand total of 10 games and was completely out of football just a year later.

I'm not saying Weddle is exactly the same case, however, I think it's buyer beware on safeties in their 30's cut loose by their existing teams.

Except Weddle has multiple pro bowls and 2014 might have been one of his best seasons ever and another pro bowl year. 2015 was an injury year.

The Huff comparison is a bit random. Why not compare Weddle to Charles Woodson?? Not all 30 year olds are created equal obviously.
 

jobberone

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It's not supposed to but its alot easier to fill when the DT are winning the poa. Our LB were having to scramble on every inside run and that made it that much more difficult.

What killed us is a matter of debate but each of our division foes had those inside runs integral to their game plan. I'm a bit old school when it comes to this because football is both mano-a-mano and an emotional game. Momentum is real and getting run on right up the middle is demoralizing. DC start deviating from the gameplan and cheating to try and stop it.

I put it right there with pass coverage in the middle of the field and replacing Hardy.

Hayden upgrade
Hardy replacement
SAM upgrade
SS upgrade
At least 1 starting quality corner.
quality QB
quality RB
speed at all skill positions.


That is just to get starters and key reserves and speaks nothing of depth. This 4-12 team isn't close.

I agree. I don't make light of it. This problem though is a weakness of this defense. Not just ours but any defense that plays one gap and shoots the gaps a lot.
 

BigStar

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The Mike in this defense is not designed to be a thumper,bruiser or 255 lbs.

The Mike actually has to be able to cover more ground than anyone on the field, he will be asked as a middle runner to carry inside receivers vertically into the deep middle portion of a 3 deep zone. The safeties favor the boundaries more so than in a traditional cover 2 defense, it's to cover up those soft spots in a traditional cover 2. The Mike was then asked to be a 3rd safety to cover up the middle of the field, his drop was modified to extend and stretch all the way down the deep middle 3rd.

The ideal Mike in this defense needs to be incredibly athletic and comfortable playing in space... you know, someone like MYLES JACK.
Lee as a MLB is the ideal fit basically? We know why he isn't the inside starter, but the move almost makes too much sense to not see if it gives the D the spark it needs and utilize the talent the best way possible. ( again injuries, etc.)

Or draft/FA someone similar to his speed/athleticism to fill in at ROLB if they go that direction and move away from Ro, who I agree is not an ideal fit. He only seems to stand out bc of his hard hitting which is flashy but unneeded in this scheme if not for the lack of an adequate/stout 1 tech to protect the speedy smaller LBs (esp Lee) that would be better fits all around including Hitchins who is great depth but shouldn't be starting as a given @ strong side..
 
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School

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Joey Ickes from Blogging the Boys wrote an insightful book called Nuts & Bolts: A Guide to the Schemes of the 2015 Dallas Cowboys. I bought it last offseason and it has pretty much exactly what you're looking for, but it's based off of the 2014 season. I don't know if he's going to writer another version for this year.

Also, one thing to watch for in games is the nickel corner blitz. This is a staple blitz that you'll see pretty much every game. The nickel corner blitzes and the opposite side DE drops back into coverage a few steps, anticipating the pass to his side.
 

Nightman

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Joey Ickes from Blogging the Boys wrote an insightful book called Nuts & Bolts: A Guide to the Schemes of the 2015 Dallas Cowboys. I bought it last offseason and it has pretty much exactly what you're looking for, but it's based off of the 2014 season. I don't know if he's going to writer another version for this year.

Also, one thing to watch for in games is the nickel corner blitz. This is a staple blitz that you'll see pretty much every game. The nickel corner blitzes and the opposite side DE drops back into coverage a few steps, anticipating the pass to his side.

Thanks, I'm sure personnel changes enough year to year to warrant another edition.
 

Nightman

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It's not supposed to but its alot easier to fill when the DT are winning the poa. Our LB were having to scramble on every inside run and that made it that much more difficult.

What killed us is a matter of debate but each of our division foes had those inside runs integral to their game plan. I'm a bit old school when it comes to this because football is both mano-a-mano and an emotional game. Momentum is real and getting run on right up the middle is demoralizing. DC start deviating from the gameplan and cheating to try and stop it.

I put it right there with pass coverage in the middle of the field and replacing Hardy.

Hayden upgrade
Hardy replacement
SAM upgrade
SS upgrade
At least 1 starting quality corner.
quality QB
quality RB
speed at all skill positions.


That is just to get starters and key reserves and speaks nothing of depth. This 4-12 team isn't close.

I agree with most of that, but I would bring Hardy back.(bolded aren't currently on he roster)

SDE- DLawrence
3T- TCrawford
1T- needs to be drafted or FA
Nickel- Hardy
WDE- Hardy/Gregory

SAM- upgrade, not vital
MIKE- upgrade, Myles Jack ideal but costly
WILL- SLee

CB- OScan/draft/FA
CB- BJones
FS- Weddle/Gipson
SS- Wilcox/draft
Slot CB- OScan
 

jobberone

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It's not supposed to but its alot easier to fill when the DT are winning the poa. Our LB were having to scramble on every inside run and that made it that much more difficult.

What killed us is a matter of debate but each of our division foes had those inside runs integral to their game plan. I'm a bit old school when it comes to this because football is both mano-a-mano and an emotional game. Momentum is real and getting run on right up the middle is demoralizing. DC start deviating from the gameplan and cheating to try and stop it.

I put it right there with pass coverage in the middle of the field and replacing Hardy.

Hayden upgrade
Hardy replacement
SAM upgrade
SS upgrade
At least 1 starting quality corner.
quality QB
quality RB
speed at all skill positions.


That is just to get starters and key reserves and speaks nothing of depth. This 4-12 team isn't close.

I have more time so I thought I'd reply to this again; more so to the general audience than to you. I'm hoping some here will take the time to read.

I can't emphasize enough the difference in our defense and Seattle's which is what Marinelli wants to do more of. He just doesn't have the personnel and not many do. I mention this because some (not you) don't understand how the defense works apparently.

If you shoot the gap then you have abandoned the gap and any thought of defending it. We don't play a lot of one gap control whether it is hold or shoot and hold, etc. We emphasize shooting the gaps.

If you hold you don't penetrate at all. There are many techniques as well as subtle differences in alignment in the gap but basically you wait on the play to come to you. If you shoot and hold then you penetrate between the C and G (usually for the 1) and then stop there. This removes the double team but leaves you stuck in that gap. Most RBs can run thru arm tackles so it is imperative that everyone shoot and hold their gap well or lanes will be introduced. If you shoot the gap then that says it all. Your job is to penetrate past the OL and disrupt the play. You are in the offensives backfield.

People are constantly complaining about Hayden's inability to maintain a gap. Well, most of the time that isn't his job. His job is to get thru the gap and breakdown the play. And there is a very short list of players who can play a one gap and maintain gap control when asked to esp if they are double teamed.

In a ZBS you often aren't running to a pre snap prescribed hole. The OL can ride the player and let him create the hole for the RB. This is easier when the player is shooting the gap. The OL must move his man before he gets out of the gap OR hope the RB is able to run in another direction. Otherwise the defense generally wins and often for a TFL.

I am not the biggest fan of this aspect of Marinelli's defense. And TBF he isn't blind to the weaknesses of shooting the gaps. The better defense is to vary the DL schemes and techniques to keep the OL as honest as possible and guessing. He is forced to run this variant of the one gap so much to generate the disruption because we don't have enough pressure playing it more straight.

Hayden is not the best guy around. He at best a decent one tech on a DL that is not yet ripe but a work in progress. He is also not the crappy player most here have perpetuated with loud but uninformed voices. He's in my estimation marginal. He's a guy you can put in there in rotation and not get killed play to play. He is upgradeable and my educated guess is Marinelli would love to have a very disruptive 1/3 in there.

IMO, Hardy and Crawford are good or better 3s. Both can play the 5. You can even rotate them some snaps as a 1. I'd love a dominating big guy to play some 1/3. Remember there isn't a huge difference in a 1 and a 3 in our defense. Both are lining up in a single gap and shooting it. There are differences in alignment within the gap for a 1 and 3 but they aren't that different if just shooting.
 

Nightman

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I have more time so I thought I'd reply to this again; more so to the general audience than to you. I'm hoping some here will take the time to read.

I can't emphasize enough the difference in our defense and Seattle's which is what Marinelli wants to do more of. He just doesn't have the personnel and not many do. I mention this because some (not you) don't understand how the defense works apparently.

If you shoot the gap then you have abandoned the gap and any thought of defending it. We don't play a lot of one gap control whether it is hold or shoot and hold, etc. We emphasize shooting the gaps.

If you hold you don't penetrate at all. There are many techniques as well as subtle differences in alignment in the gap but basically you wait on the play to come to you. If you shoot and hold then you penetrate between the C and G (usually for the 1) and then stop there. This removes the double team but leaves you stuck in that gap. Most RBs can run thru arm tackles so it is imperative that everyone shoot and hold their gap well or lanes will be introduced. If you shoot the gap then that says it all. Your job is to penetrate past the OL and disrupt the play. You are in the offensives backfield.

People are constantly complaining about Hayden's inability to maintain a gap. Well, most of the time that isn't his job. His job is to get thru the gap and breakdown the play. And there is a very short list of players who can play a one gap and maintain gap control when asked to esp if they are double teamed.

In a ZBS you often aren't running to a pre snap prescribed hole. The OL can ride the player and let him create the hole for the RB. This is easier when the player is shooting the gap. The OL must move his man before he gets out of the gap OR hope the RB is able to run in another direction. Otherwise the defense generally wins and often for a TFL.

I am not the biggest fan of this aspect of Marinelli's defense. And TBF he isn't blind to the weaknesses of shooting the gaps. The better defense is to vary the DL schemes and techniques to keep the OL as honest as possible and guessing. He is forced to run this variant of the one gap so much to generate the disruption because we don't have enough pressure playing it more straight.

Hayden is not the best guy around. He at best a decent one tech on a DL that is not yet ripe but a work in progress. He is also not the crappy player most here have perpetuated with loud but uninformed voices. He's in my estimation marginal. He's a guy you can put in there in rotation and not get killed play to play. He is upgradeable and my educated guess is Marinelli would love to have a very disruptive 1/3 in there.
n.
IMO, Hardy and Crawford are good or better 3s. Both can play the 5. You can even rotate them some snaps as a 1. I'd love a dominating big guy to play some 1/3. Remember there isn't a huge difference in a 1 and a 3 in our defense. Both are lining up in a single gap and shooting it. There are differences in alignment within the gap for a 1 and 3 but they aren't that different if just shooting.

There was talk last year of adopting even more of SEA's system that included an Elephant or LEO. It looked more like a 3-4 with the LEO rushing the passer from the OLB position.

I guess what you are trying to get across is that are big differences between what Marinelli wants to run and what he is able to run. Does he not get have influence needed to pick the groceries or is the FO office just on a different page.

It seems that the 1T and SDE/LEO are a lot more important in SEA than here. Is that because they adapt to their players or do they draft to the system? We just always seem stuck with players that don't quite fit.

43-under-leo-defense-detroit-lions.png
 

jobberone

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There was talk last year of adopting even more of SEA's system that included an Elephant or LEO. It looked more like a 3-4 with the LEO rushing the passer from the OLB position.

I guess what you are trying to get across is that are big differences between what Marinelli wants to run and what he is able to run. Does he not get have influence needed to pick the groceries or is the FO office just on a different page.

It seems that the 1T and SDE/LEO are a lot more important in SEA than here. Is that because they adapt to their players or do they draft to the system? We just always seem stuck with players that don't quite fit.

43-under-leo-defense-detroit-lions.png

I was just talking about the interior and not the outside. Marinella wanted to run more of the techniques the tackles played although there was more talk about the outside techniques etc.

We can't run much shoot and hold because we don't have the tackles with the strength or size to do that well and still get thru the gaps, too. They have to be able to shoot the gap and shoot and hold. We don't have their tackles and most teams don't have that latitude playing differing techniques. It's tough to get a tackle that can shoot the gap quickly enough and still have the power to shoot and hold or just play a 0 tech like you see above. Most players can excel at one but not all three. What you see above is really a 3-4. Seattle can morph back and forth between 4-3 and 3-4 because of their personnel along the DL and their LBers. We just don't have that scheme versatility right now although with Hardy and Crawford at the 3 you can do this. Gregory can play an edge rusher from the 4-3 as well as a stand up 3-4 rush LBer.

Seattle is much more scheme inventive than we are esp with the LBers and DBs interacting with the DL. We are no where close to them and I think Marinelli will need a couple of camps and years to put some of that in.

We need another 3 be it Hardy or via the draft; I suspect that is where it comes. We need much better CBs who are physical and long who can mesh with the running game as well as perform much better in pass defense; and here is one place I see a need for a new player acquisition strategy. We need another edge rusher and an active 3 down LBer. We need some continuity.
 

jobberone

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BTW, while the name Leo yada does describe a standup LBer in the C gap or you line him up inside the end (other names) they are just rush LBers who hopefully can cover some and play the run decently.

Gregory has the size albeit a tad light last year and arm length at 34". He appears faster than 4.6 in the dash. Don't have any combine numbers but you are looking for 4.3x and 6.9x cones and a 1.5x split with hips, lean, dip and turn.
 
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