Vela: Maybe Ellis is right?

[Ben_n_austin]

How do you know he has a few good years left in the tank?

Know of any other 32 year olds who have come back from Achilles injuries and done even better than they did prior to it? Because that is exactly what he would have to do to justify any contract bigger than the one he is currently whining about.
.

Reggie White came back from tremendous BACK injuries and played great late in his career. Age doesn't necessarily mean die at DE.

 

[Alexander]

Reggie White came back from tremendous BACK injuries and played great late in his career. Age doesn't necessarily mean die at DE.

Age wasn't the crux of that statement.

Take a strong look at phrase "32 year olds who have come back from Achilles injuries" when you try to answer the question next time.

Age alone isn't a handicap. Age plus a fairly significant injury is indeed.

If he were not injured, Ellis would have more of a point. Not much of one, but he would have at least a leg to stand on.

 

[Ben_n_austin]

AGS, you appear to have just crafted a response base on your own misunderstandings of people's thoughts.

First of all, the notion that Spencer is an adequate replacement, which is what I quoted in my post, is one put out there by Ellis himself, with his insecure "You've got your LB, what do you need me for now" statement. I have yet to see anyone suggest that Spencer as a full-time replacement would be an upgrade.

But Ellis, because of his constant fear of competition and insecurity about his own abilities, put that out there. It was just pandering, to continue to look like the "good guy" (as if he's being shoved out) but still, those are his words, not mine.

Almost noone has begged for Ellis' release. He's our player, he's not causing problems save for being a whiner, most say just force him to play, and earn his 2.5 million. He signed a contract equal to his worth, it's on him to play it out. I really don't care if he's upset that he signed a seven year deal that looks paltry now - HE signed it, and so HE must honor it so long as the team does so in return.

Clearly Ellis can help this team. Once he gets off the rag, and realizes that 2.5 million dollars is better than none, he'll be back and contributing fine. People are just tired of hearing it from him, and those of us who knew Ellis was all about the money for years now are tired of being told what a great guy he is, and what a great discount he gave us. It's all a crock of horse-crap, as Ellis is what he is. A selfish, whiny, insecure player who doesn't trust his own abilities enough to welcome open competition and establish himself - REALLY establish himself - as a team leader. He'd rather play 4-3 DE, rack up sacks through three months, get paid and disappear in December.

And that's fine.

He just doesn't deserve any more money for that underwhelming performance.

Well, then, I guess you're not heeding to the parameters in which Greg is setting. Which are, basically, "If I don't feel 100%, coach, I'm not playing".

The ball is in Greg's court. And the problem lies with some statements that were made to Greg about how the team's philosophy was changing in regards to the types of contracts that they would be singing players to in the future.

But this all brings us back to the "if I'm not 100%" thing. All Greg has to do is say, "I feel about 96% today" (on game day). I'm not playing"..... Now Greg is playing on their level of communication. He's saying, if we're going to use loose language; by all means.... This is Greg's point of approach right now. And it works in his favor; like it or not....

If you don't listen to what Greg is saying, and if he doesn't fold in regards to his side of the negotiations, you're left with paying a guy who does nothing for you.

And then guess what?

You're forced to actually play Spencer, or at least someone of lesser quality than Greg Ellis. And so it stands to reason that, by doing that, you've diminished the quality of your defense....

Which brings me back to my main point here. The ball is in Greg Ellis' court. And Jerry knows that he told Greg some things that weren't true. I think, principally, that's where Greg has a problem. Should our words not hold us to the same virtues as a written contract?

I'm pretty sure I know why Greg is calling Jerry out. And it has less to do with money than it does with the spoken words of jerry to Greg about what the reality of things were.

Greg could get more money in the open market. Teams need DEs; even aged ones and OLBs, too. The fact that he's shown he can be a hybrid increases his value to other teams - as well as us.

Sure, he's a little disgruntled about pay. It's his career. But I think we're going to be a little more disgruntled if he can't play this year.

We were a much better defense with him last year. And I'd love to see him in there mixing it up with the up and coming talent that we have.

And who wouldn't be tee'd off a little if their boss told them that they were going to have a meeting - and then refuse to have a meeting?

I don't care if you're a dishwasher that's going disgruntle you - and probably effect your job performance.

 

[Ben_n_austin]

Age alone isn't a handicap. Age plus a fairly significant injury is indeed.

.

Which is my point, White had some very significant injuries (and came back).

I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[Ben_n_austin]

Not to mention, I sense a tiny bit of sarcasm in Greg's voice when he says, "you have your player" in regards to Spencer. It's more Greg being jocular and humble at the same time than anything.

He's got a tremendously composed demeanor. T.O. should take notes. And that's what makes Greg a classy guy in a situation like this, as opposed to T.O. - who lacks class in every sense of the word.

 

[PJCOWBOYS]

And you got this inside knowledge where? Does the same hold true for every rookie in the NFL, or just Spencer?

And then guess what?

You're forced to actually play Spencer, or at least someone of lesser quality than Greg Ellis. And so it stands to reason that, by doing that, you've diminished the quality of your defense....

 

[Alexander]

Which is my point, White had some very significant injuries (and came back).

I'm not sure what your point is.

Read up on Achilles tendon injuries and get back with me.

Otherwise please keep the references to Hall of Fame athletes like Reggie White and back problems out of the discussion. It has zero relevance to what we are discussing.

Ellis isn't in White's class, nor does he have a back problem that can be treated easily. There is not a lot that can be done with this sort of injury and it is proven that it robs players of explosion. And Ellis never had much to begin with.

Keith Hamilton of the New York Giants was a very similar case. He was 31 years old and never returned. Lawrence Taylor, an athlete ten times better than Ellis, was able to play, but only registered six sacks in his final season.

Many people remember how Kevin Smith looked before and after his injury. Julian Peterson was much younger and is just recovering back to form two years later.

Not only is Greg Ellis as fine a human being as you will ever find, apparently you believe he is truly one of the great athletes of our time if you do not believe this injury will be a problem.

 

[superpunk]

Oh sweet Moses...if I see any more verbal fellating of Greg Ellis, I might vomit.

TO should take notes? Why, so that he can mislead his fans into thinking he's a great guy? At least when TO decides it's about the money, he can be honest about it. Instead, Ellis *****foots around the issue for years, and evennow, can't full on commit to a hold out. If he really thought he had a leg to stand on, he likely would have. Who got paid in this comparison? That's right, the guy everyone thinks is a jagoff.

Ellis is that same guy. He just doesn't have the stones to stand up for himself, or the belief in himself that is necessary to take such a strong stand.

Jerry Jones is wise with his money, but never stingy. If Ellis deserved more money, Jerry would pile it on him. Ellis is getting what he signed up for - because he hasn't earned anything else. Spare us the BS about Ellis feeling betrayed that Jerry promised him a meeting. This has been three years running now that Ellis has been whining. Does he ever go out and step it up on the field? A hold out can be pretty effective after you've notched 12 sacks. No - every year it's something different that's hurting Greg's feelings.

"I'm a guinea pig, Jerry lied to me."

What a baby. He should be taking notes from TO. At least then we'd know he had some stones.

 

[Big Dakota]

Takeo Spikes tore his achilles 3 games into the 2005 season. Up to that point his 7 year averages looked like this. 113 Tkls and 3 sacks. In 2006, after the injury, he had 70 Tkls and 1 sack. He was NOT the 2 time pro bowl player last year he was before the injury. He was 29 when that occured. Greg was 31. Greg was a 0 time pro bowler who averaged 51 Tkls and 6 sacks in the 8 years preceding his injury. 2007?

Just a little comparison.

 

[Ben_n_austin]

Your Thomas comparison was horrible. That's not a good body-type comparison at all. The McGinest comparison is really close in terms of size and weight but it's my belief that Greg is (make that was) taller and heavier. Regardless, they are different body types. Greg does not have the body of a linebacker, IMO.

But using the listed weights for any of the players, McGinest or otherwise is just silly. We all know that. They're not correct, so I wouldn't use them.

Indeed--agreed.

 

[Ben_n_austin]

He's reportedly at 265 right now, and he looks about 10-15 pounds lighter than '06. He trimmed down because (1) Wade wanted him to, and (2) to help his recovery.

I'd say 275-280 is about right for '06.

(3) He'll be quicker and have more longevity this way.

I think, eventually, Greg will get paid. He deserves it. Jerry knows that. He just needs to prove it this year at OLB. We need a rotation. And we need a guy that can give us different looks. Greg Ellis is the best guy we have to do that that we have other than Demarcus Ware. And I think they are very equal as far as capabilities go. Greg has athleticism nad experience that I think we're forgetting about.

265 lbs is a perfect weight for him there! And as I said, he showed last year that he can catch on to this position quickly.

Unless Spencer plays lights out, and even then we're just an injury away from disaster, I think Greg will eventually get his wish.

 

[Alexander]

Oh sweet Moses...if I see any more verbal fellating of Greg Ellis, I might vomit.

TO should take notes? Why, so that he can mislead his fans into thinking he's a great guy? At least when TO decides it's about the money, he can be honest about it. Instead, Ellis *****foots around the issue for years, and evennow, can't full on commit to a hold out. If he really thought he had a leg to stand on, he likely would have. Who got paid in this comparison? That's right, the guy everyone thinks is a jagoff.

Ellis is that same guy. He just doesn't have the stones to stand up for himself, or the belief in himself that is necessary to take such a strong stand.

Jerry Jones is wise with his money, but never stingy. If Ellis deserved more money, Jerry would pile it on him. Ellis is getting what he signed up for - because he hasn't earned anything else. Spare us the BS about Ellis feeling betrayed that Jerry promised him a meeting. This has been three years running now that Ellis has been whining. Does he ever go out and step it up on the field? A hold out can be pretty effective after you've notched 12 sacks. No - every year it's something different that's hurting Greg's feelings.

"I'm a guinea pig, Jerry lied to me."

What a baby. He should be taking notes from TO. At least then we'd know he had some stones.

Greg Ellis needs to release a K-Tel album.

It can be filled with the following hits:

"I just want to be in a system that fits me”

"I Want A Commitment"

"I'm the guinea pig"

"The ball is in their court(2005 version)"

"The ball is in their court (2006 version)"

"The ball is in their court (special bonus 2007 remix)"

And if you order in the next 30 minutes, you will receive his newest hit:

"Jerry Lied to me."

 

[Big Dakota]

Here's a K Tel is wish Greg would release.

 

[Ben_n_austin]

Read up on Achilles tendon injuries and get back with me.

Otherwise please keep the references to Hall of Fame athletes like Reggie White and back problems out of the discussion. It has zero relevance to what we are discussing.

Ellis isn't in White's class, nor does he have a back problem that can be treated easily. There is not a lot that can be done with this sort of injury and it is proven that it robs players of explosion. And Ellis never had much to begin with.

Keith Hamilton of the New York Giants was a very similar case. He was 31 years old and never returned. Lawrence Taylor, an athlete ten times better than Ellis, was able to play, but only registered six sacks in his final season.

Many people remember how Kevin Smith looked before and after his injury. Julian Peterson was much younger and is just recovering back to form two years later.

Not only is Greg Ellis as fine a human being as you will ever find, apparently you believe he is truly one of the great athletes of our time if you do not believe this injury will be a problem.

Anything involving your spinal chord is entirely more serious than anything to do with your legs and knees.

If you have kept up with the modern marvels of medicine, you'd know that it is more common to make full recoveries from these things.

Newsflash:The medical methods they now use have improved greatly since the old Lawrence Taylor, a "Hall of Famer" by the way (see def. for hypocrisy ), and even the proverbial Kevin Smith (just a tid bit and fyi for my fellow zoner).

The fact that you're arguing from that standpoint makes your argument automatically invalid. So it saddens me to say that as good of a sportsman as I think myself to be, I'm sorry to say that your point of view holds no water. And it seems that you're more interested in circular arguments.

My argument was based on the grounds that since we've made these leaps with this thing we call medicine, and since most of the experts, excluding cowboyszone.com experts, say that Greg will have made a full recovery by the time the season comes around.

But let's not let that fact get in the way.

And rather than producing anything that would be virtuous and beneficial for the team and the greater good, you'd rather make circular arguments about why Greg isn't worth anything, when you haven't questioned why he is.

This leaves me to believe that you are only considering a very narrow scope of the picture. You've already said that you think Greg can help the team.

Allow me to have you consider a few more things as I will present them as questions.

Will he help the team if he doesn't play?

Will he help the team if Anthony Spencer sucks?

Will he help the team if he's not motivated?

Tell me, wise man, since you have it all figured out. . . .

When I apply your line of thinking, I become perplexed because this logic lacks sense.

Let me explain....

If Ellis can help the team (which you have already stated hat he can), this would be good.

So it stands to reason that if he's not on the team that he would diminish the quality of the defense. And this would be bad.

So by being on the side of the argument in which Ellis may not play, you are for being what is, by your own logic, worse for the team...

I am scratching my head here because your logic is tremendously fallible.

 

[Ben_n_austin]

Oh sweet Moses...if I see any more verbal fellating of Greg Ellis, I might vomit.

TO should take notes? Why, so that he can mislead his fans into thinking he's a great guy? At least when TO decides it's about the money, he can be honest about it. Instead, Ellis *****foots around the issue for years, and evennow, can't full on commit to a hold out. If he really thought he had a leg to stand on, he likely would have. Who got paid in this comparison? That's right, the guy everyone thinks is a jagoff.

Ellis is that same guy. He just doesn't have the stones to stand up for himself, or the belief in himself that is necessary to take such a strong stand.

Jerry Jones is wise with his money, but never stingy. If Ellis deserved more money, Jerry would pile it on him. Ellis is getting what he signed up for - because he hasn't earned anything else. Spare us the BS about Ellis feeling betrayed that Jerry promised him a meeting. This has been three years running now that Ellis has been whining. Does he ever go out and step it up on the field? A hold out can be pretty effective after you've notched 12 sacks. No - every year it's something different that's hurting Greg's feelings.

"I'm a guinea pig, Jerry lied to me."

What a baby. He should be taking notes from TO. At least then we'd know he had some stones.

Interesting how T.O.'s biggest defender has this whole Ellis thing all figured out.

I guess it all depends on your definition of worth. Mine and this guy's tends to vary a great deal.

Oh well....

It happens. :

 

[Bob Dole]

(3) He'll be quicker and have more longevity this way.

I think, eventually, Greg will get paid. He deserves it. Jerry knows that. He just needs to prove it this year at OLB. We need a rotation. And we need a guy that can give us different looks. Greg Ellis is the best guy we have to do that that we have other than Demarcus Ware. And I think they are very equal as far as capabilities go. Greg has athleticism nad experience that I think we're forgetting about.

265 lbs is a perfect weight for him there! And as I said, he showed last year that he can catch on to this position quickly.

Unless Spencer plays lights out, and even then we're just an injury away from disaster, I think Greg will eventually get his wish.

Greg is not getting paid a dime more than he makes now. If Greg Ellis was a guy who averaged 15 sacks a season for his career, he STILL shouldn't get an extension - you know why? Because it's BAD BUSINESS.

You don't pile on a new contract to a 32-year-old coming off of a MAJOR injury who is probably at the end of the rope career-wise, especially when his replacement is already on the team. Especially when, as in Greg's case, the player has been vastly overrated his entire career. Greg Ellis would not get that kind of a deal anywhere else in the league and quite frankly probably wouldn't even get the contract he has with us now on most teams in the league.

 

[Ben_n_austin]

Oh sweet Moses...if I see any more verbal fellating of Greg Ellis, I might vomit.

TO should take notes? Why, so that he can mislead his fans into thinking he's a great guy? At least when TO decides it's about the money, he can be honest about it. Instead, Ellis *****foots around the issue for years, and evennow, can't full on commit to a hold out. If he really thought he had a leg to stand on, he likely would have. Who got paid in this comparison? That's right, the guy everyone thinks is a jagoff.

Ellis is that same guy. He just doesn't have the stones to stand up for himself, or the belief in himself that is necessary to take such a strong stand.

Jerry Jones is wise with his money, but never stingy. If Ellis deserved more money, Jerry would pile it on him. Ellis is getting what he signed up for - because he hasn't earned anything else. Spare us the BS about Ellis feeling betrayed that Jerry promised him a meeting. This has been three years running now that Ellis has been whining. Does he ever go out and step it up on the field? A hold out can be pretty effective after you've notched 12 sacks. No - every year it's something different that's hurting Greg's feelings.

"I'm a guinea pig, Jerry lied to me."

What a baby. He should be taking notes from TO. At least then we'd know he had some stones.

Man, talk about someone throwing a fit over a mere observation. T.O. took it upon himself so that if he didn't get his way, he'd make sure that he was a distraction to his team....

I don't think you could ever compare Greg's demeanor, class, integrity, sportsmanship to T.O.'s and sound like you have the slightest inkling of a grasp on the truth.

Spare the nonsensical diatribes about T.O.'s great character; and how he's going to be such a great asset to this team.

It is very apparent in the telling of one's character when T.O. drops 20 passes and keeps running his mouth and thinks he doesn't have to be part of the team, and a guy like you thinks that's "nuts".

O my poor T.O. fan, your name is only suiting.

 

[quincyyyyy]

Alexander, what is your obsession with Simon Cowell? Your Ryan Seacrest aren't you...

 

[Ben_n_austin]

Greg is not getting paid a dime more than he makes now. If Greg Ellis was a guy who averaged 15 sacks a season for his career, he STILL shouldn't get an extension - you know why? Because it's BAD BUSINESS.

Greg entered the deal thinking that his job title was "defensive end". Now they want to give him a different title "linebacker" and not discuss his contract.

That's like the owner of a advertising business taking the mail room manager and putting him in charge of janitorial duties. Or taking your marketing guys and putting them in the technical department... and then assuming that they should still work for what they agreed to work for at those other jobs.

Worse than this, the Cowboys have the rights to Ellis. And he doesn't have a choice in being the marketing guy who went to the technical department and ask for a raise. Keep in mind Greg switched jobs, not because he wanted to, but because the team needed him to - and he did a good job in doing that.

Given this, I see no reason why the team couldn't meet with Greg and make a slight compromise. He did do more than he thought he was going to have to do in playing LB.

It's like hiring a guy to mow your lawn and then asking him to pile up all the rocks.... That wasn't in the (verbal or written) contract.

And the Cowboys should pay him, because that is GOOD BUSINESS.

He's done more than they've asked him, and any good boss who holds work ethic, diligence and obedience in high regard knows this.


Further more, since you're not considering that Greg Ellis is playing OLB NOW, as in THIS YEAR. Throw all the statistical garbage about how be played at DE out the window. It is completely and entirely useless and irrelevant. And I think, then, you'll find your self experiencing a sense of enlightenment.

I think the most obvious fallacy in your thinking is assuming that DE and OLB are even close to being the same thing.

Greg played well in the 9 games we saw him play in last year. In fact, he was our best player on the front for over the first half of the season. And there is a direct correlation to his injury and the defensive decline.

Denying that is senseless.

You don't pile on a new contract to a 32-year-old coming off of a MAJOR injury who is probably at the end of the rope career-wise, especially when his replacement is already on the team. Especially when, as in Greg's case, the player has been vastly overrated his entire career. Greg Ellis would not get that kind of a deal anywhere else in the league and quite frankly probably wouldn't even get the contract he has with us now on most teams in the league.

Again, you're not considering that a lighter Greg Ellis, playing OLB is an entirely different player than the defensive end that you keep referring to.

He played well last year at OLB.

 

[Alexander]

Anything involving your spinal chord is entirely more serious than anything to do with your legs and knees.

If you have kept up with the modern marvels of medicine, you'd know that it is more common to make full recoveries from these things.

Julian Peterson was injured less than three years ago, yet took two years.

Has there been some sort of medical breakthrough I am not aware of?

Especially one that is designed to not only make a complete recovery in a little over six months yet also combine well with a 32 year old body that never was explosive to begin with? Do tell.

I am not expecting much from him. And if he shuts up and plays, I am perfectly fine with having him keeping Anthony's spot warm.