Vick Indicted

sacase

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silverbear;1554545 said:
The bit about bankrolling the operation was offered in response to sacase's claim that Vick was "just a participant" in this... it had nothing to do with how the Feds will pursue their case... frankly, they don't need to prove that he's the ringleader, even though he clearly is... all they need to do is prove he's a coconspirator... he's not accused of being the ringleader in the indictment...

I just got disgusted when sacase tried to float that "he's just a participant" BS, and offered that up as rebuttal... I think he knows that Vick was the money man for this operation, but is either too obstinate or too disingenuous to admit it...

I think you are a bit confused. If you said he was financial bad news kennels I wouldn't argue with you. But what I am saying is he is not a nationwide organizer of dog fighting. So essentially he is fighting his dogs in events other people sponsor. In the indictment is specifically mentions and instance where he was hosting an event which someone else was sponsoring. So yes he is a participant not an organizer.
 

Wood

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Is dogfighting an uneducated or black thing? I dont know of anyone who even has a mild curiosity about it...but again my friends are educated white males. Curious to what the perception is about it. Have a friend who is a cop in philly and he thinks its almost exclusively a black, gangster/hip-hop type of crowd.
 

Vintage

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Big Dakota;1554529 said:
Most of these guys that defend Vick are criminals themselves.

:laugh2:


Wood said:
Is dogfighting an uneducated or black thing? I dont know of anyone who even has a mild curiosity about it...but again my friends are educated white males. Curious to what the perception is about it. Have a friend who is a cop in philly and he thinks its almost exclusively a black, gangster/hip-hop type of crowd.

Wow.
 

iceberg

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dacowboys;1554547 said:
IMOdogs are worhtless. You have your views about dogs and I have mine. There is a reason I have my opinions about dogs.

TO YOU i'm sure dogs are. but to a blind man who depends on one for sight, they're not. to officers who use them for drug / bomb sniffing, they're not. to a family who's dog is also their protector, they're not. to people who's family *is* their dog, they're not.

like i said - your "singular" view is fine for yourself but hardly an all emcompassing statement so to blow off all the postives about dogs cause one dryhumped your leg at a catilian or something and caused you undue embarassment is just ignorance.

like others have said - in 2 years if this is your "brilliance" speaking i can only imagine what nuggets of wisdom we've not bee privy to.
 

Big Dakota

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Wood;1554555 said:
Is dogfighting an uneducated or black thing? I dont know of anyone who even has a mild curiosity about it...but again my friends are educated white males. Curious to what the perception is about it. Have a friend who is a cop in philly and he thinks its almost exclusively a black, gangster/hip-hop type of crowd.


I'd say socioeconomic more than anything.
 

silverbear

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sacase;1554526 said:
Sorry, in my opinion, dog fighting is not that big of deal in the grand scheme of things. Is it wrong? Yes. Disgusting? Yes. Of huge importance. No.

Guess you're not aware that a lot of serial killers got their start torturing animals...

Dude you document the media and quote ESPN, like ESPN is never wrong. ESPN is not a credible source.

In this case, ESPN is not the source, it's that anonymous informant... I have provided quotes that demonstrate that informant has proven reliable to law enforcement types in the past...

And you know that, but you ignore it... which is rather dishonest of you... and again, you call ME a liar??

Vick may very well have finaced the dog fighting operation of Bad Newz Kennels. That part is not in contention. Alledging that he was one of the people running the whole ring is what I am saying is just plain false.

Then who do you think bankrolled his "kennel"??

It is more than clear by the indictment that he is being indicted for his participation in dog fighting not running the whole ring.

My observations regarding his role as the money man in this operation were not related to the indictment, but rather a simple statement of COMMON SENSE-- the other two guys were living in the house Vick bought, gratis... Vick is the guy making millions of dollars, those two don't seem to be nearly as well off... indeed, I suspect that they were living there as Vick's EMPLOYEES ( the key word there being "suspect")...

You're beyond naive if you think that Vick wasn't the "ringleader" of that operation, but for the purposes of the indictment, it's not really important if he was or not...
 

silverbear

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Big Dakota;1554529 said:
Most of these guys that defend Vick are criminals themselves.

Look, sacase is annoying me with his garbage, but he doesn't deserve that...
 

Bob Sacamano

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silverbear;1554494 said:
That quote is taken from an article in the San Gabriel Valley Tribune, dated May 29th... note that the confidential informant making the claim has proven reliable in past investigations... he may even be one of the 4 confidential

I think he is, as he has already fingered Vick
 

trickblue

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Guys...

Let's tone it down a bit. It's getting too personal...
 

Vintage

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Bob Sacamano;1554564 said:
I think he is, as he has already fingered Vick


That is sig worthy.

Awesome job.

Totally by accident, but I don't care.

I bow down to the greatness that is this post.
 

cobra

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sacase;1554450 said:
But at this point he is not charged with RICO violations nor Rackateering nor gambling.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You can't possibly be this stupid. Read the fricking indictment. It's right there. Gambling is in plain english. Racketeering is the statute alleged. Two RICO violations.

You don't know *** you are talking about and you are about to start pissing me off by arguing with me from your own pillar of ignorance. If you don't know jack**** about the law, then usually its not a good idea to argue with a lawyer.

sacase;1554450 said:
At this point, no one has even mentioned RICO or Rackateering, it hasn't even been associated with this case at all. Cobra specifically said they got him on RICO. That is not true, at this point it is only conspiracy charge.

Cobra, what exactly are the 35 charges that can result in a RICO case and do they have to charge them with 2 counts or do they have to only committ two acts.

(A) You don't know what RICO is nor what it means. Nor do you apparently know how indictments read for such violations.

(B) If you read, the indictment, which you clearly did not, then you will see the following:

"... carrying on of the unlawful activity, in violation of Title 18, United States Code, section 1952."

He is be accused of violating that provision of the USC.

Now your ignorant *** then throws out the following:

sacase;1554450 said:
But at this point he is not charged with...Rackateering

You said he is not charged with rackteering. But he is charged with violating 18 USC 1952. So let's take a look at what that is:

18 USC 1952

Without posting the entire statute, let me just point you to the title:
§ 1952. Interstate and foreign travel or transportation in aid of racketeering enterprises
What's that? Oh, that's right, sacase apparently doesn't know *** he is talking about.
(b) As used in this section (i) “unlawful activity” means
(1) any business enterprise involving gambling...

Hmmm... maybe so gambling is an unlawful activity defined as rackteering. Further proof sacase is ignorant about what he is talking about.

Let's look now at RICO.

From the first sentence of the statute:
(1) “racketeering activity” means (A) any act or threat involving ...gambling.... which is chargeable under State law and punishable by imprisonment for more than one year;
So gambling has to be chargeable under state law in order to be racketeering? Hmm... Maybe that's why they listed those Virginia statutes in the indictment..... maybe. Call me crazy, but that seems like a safe bet to me.

So gambling is one incident. Let's see if there is a second one. Hmm.... back in that same section:
B) any act which is indictable under any of the following provisions of title 18, United States Code:... section 1952 (relating to racketeering)
So any act in violation of section 1952 is also an act of rackteering. Wait, a minute.... that is the section we are talking about above that he was indicted under!

So let's see...
“pattern of racketeering activity” requires at least two acts of racketeering activity, one of which occurred after the effective date of this chapter and the last of which occurred within ten years (excluding any period of imprisonment) after the commission of a prior act of racketeering activity;
So he needs at least two acts of rackteering activity. So we go back to the definition.

So gambling that is violative of Virginia laws is one. And violating section 1952 is a second one.

That's two!

Oh my! Look like we have a RICO act indictment here, people!

Apparently sacase is dumb enough that he thinks an indictment reads "You are charged with gambing and violating RICO." No. It reads like this one does. The elements of the crime are alleged, and the actual charges are flushed out later.

Since you obviously don't know what the hell you are talking about, I would appreciate if you would keep your ignorance off the board so as to now confused anyone here.
 

silverbear

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sacase;1554535 said:
There is no willfull distortion. Just the facts. he is alleged to have participated in dog fights by sponsoring dogs. He is not alleged to coordinate a national dog fighting ring.

I never said he was... I said he was the ringleader of THIS dogfighting operation... in this case, "ringleader" is basically intended to say he's the money man, the guy without whom the operation could not exist...

And again, he's alleged to have done a LOT more than "participating in dog fights by sponsoring dogs"... he's alleged to have BOUGHT dogs for fighting, to have BRED dogs for fighting, to have TRAINED dogs to fight, and to have killed, or caused to have killed, dogs whose only crimes were they weren't good enough fighters to suit him...

THAT'S the willful distortion you're participating in, this ongoing attempt to diminish the REAL severity of the charges against him... he's NOT "just a participant", as you've suggested... he's NOT just "participating in dog fights by sponsoring dogs"... if YOU'VE read the indictment, you know the allegations against him run MUCH deeper than that...

And frankly, I find it offensive that you continue distorting the allegations against him, in an attempt to minimize the seriousness of the crimes he's committed...
 

AbeBeta

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trickblue;1554566 said:
Guys...

Let's tone it down a bit. It's getting too personal...

you are so going to ruin all the fun today...
 

Vintage

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I think we all need to take a quick breather, a quick time out....and reflect upon Summer's post.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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iceberg;1554559 said:
TO YOU i'm sure dogs are. but to a blind man who depends on one for sight, they're not. to officers who use them for drug / bomb sniffing, they're not. to a family who's dog is also their protector, they're not. to people who's family *is* their dog, they're not.

like i said - your "singular" view is fine for yourself but hardly an all emcompassing statement so to blow off all the postives about dogs cause one dryhumped your leg at a catilian or something and caused you undue embarassment is just ignorance.

like others have said - in 2 years if this is your "brilliance" speaking i can only imagine what nuggets of wisdom we've not bee privy to.

To a guy who has a wife, always pissed off about what I haven't done around the house yet, 4 kids who only notice I'm gone when the food runs out and a mountain of business intently watching for my payments to come in on time, dogs are the most important things in life. They're the ones who are happy to see me when I come home.

:laugh2:
 

silverbear

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dacowboys;1554547 said:
IMO dogs are worhtless. You have your views about dogs and I have mine. There is a reason I have my opinions about dogs.

Your girlfriend left you for a Labrador retriever??
 

iceberg

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ABQCOWBOY;1554575 said:
To a guy who has a wife, always pissed off about what I haven't done around the house yet, 4 kids who only notice I'm gone when the food runs out and a mountain of business intently watching for my payments to come in on time, dogs are the most important things in life. They're the ones who are happy to see me when I come home.

:laugh2:

i miss my akita at times but he just wasn't a "house" dog at all and is much better off in the country where i gave him to a friend.
 
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