Vick Indicted

sacase

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silverbear;1554410 said:
I've said it before, sacase doesn't seem to really know the facts of this indictment, making his attempted defense of Vick rather feeble...

Have you actually read the indictment? I think not.

He is alleged to have sponsored dogs, not run a whole ring. By saying that he is one of the biggest organizers in the country you are just plain lying.

Can he face more charges, yes. But at this point he is not charged with RICO violations nor Rackateering nor gambling.

If you notice I don't jump on anyone who is being charged with something, I prefer to see it play out, since I don't have all the facts.

It is very possible that he will be convicted and if so he deserves what he gets. Yes the Feds get anywhere from a 90-95% conviction rate, but there is still that 5-10% chance they loose. So in your own ignorance you assume I am defending him, when in reality I am defending his right the be innocent until proven guilty which is apart of the US contitution. I am also defending the things people are adding to this from their own free will since they dislike him so much. At this point, no one has even mentioned RICO or Rackateering, it hasn't even been associated with this case at all. Cobra specifically said they got him on RICO. That is not true, at this point it is only conspiracy charge.

Cobra, what exactly are the 35 charges that can result in a RICO case and do they have to charge them with 2 counts or do they have to only committ two acts.
 

AsthmaField

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This is very bad... if Atlanta is worse than Cleveland, we're going to have a lower pick in the top 10!
 

silverbear

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Doomsday101;1554434 said:
I only mentioned what was being said. You have an issue with Mort I can understand but I only mentioned what was reported.

Shoulda stuck a smiley on that post, I was just poking a little fun at Mort...
 

Doomsday101

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AsthmaField;1554457 said:
This is very bad... if Atlanta is worse than Cleveland, we're going to have a lower pick in the top 10!

If Atlanta is worse then they will be going after a QB. I don't expect that Dallas will be looking at QB
 

sacase

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silverbear;1554429 said:
How very noble of you... just one little problem, though, you're not being entirely honest with us...

You're making some effort to defend Vick, by attempting to minimize the seriousness of the crime(s) he's being charged with...

As for my knowledge of this case, it's at least superior to yours... that's because I've spent some time in recent weeks investigating all the reports I could find on this sordid little spectacle... you could learn a little something if you took yourself over to pet-abuse.com, and read up on what they have on him over there... they have a pretty extensive compilation of articles on that subject...

right I am sure the federal government goes right over there to get all of their information.

Again read what I said. Never did I defend him. Just the process and people just making stuff up. If he is guilty he deserves what he gets plain and simple.
 

Doomsday101

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silverbear;1554458 said:
Shoulda stuck a smiley on that post, I was just poking a little fun at Mort...

No problem. God knows Mort has missed on some of his reports. I also think many reporters are given false information by players and teams in certain cases.
 

StanleySpadowski

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AsthmaField;1554457 said:
This is very bad... if Atlanta is worse than Cleveland, we're going to have a lower pick in the top 10!


This is very, very good for Dallas. If Cleveland is worse, Atlanta will probably give up the farm for Brohm if Petrino lasts the season. If Atlanta's worse, they just take Brohm, dropping a quality player that Dallas is interested in into a lower salary slot.
 

burmafrd

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If Atlanta is desperate for a QB, we might be able to rape them like we did the Vikes.
 

Doomsday101

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Bob Sacamano;1554483 said:
I think at least one is facing life in prison

Skilling got 24 years but he is 52 years old. This very well could be a life sentence for him.
 

silverbear

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sacase;1554450 said:
Have you actually read the indictment? I think not.

He is alleged to have sponsored dogs, not run a whole ring. By saying that he is one of the biggest organizers in the country you are just plain lying.

Oh, gonna play that game, are you?? Then chew on this:

ESPN's "Outside the Lines" on Sunday interviewed a confidential informant, speaking on camera with his face hidden and his voice disguised, who alleged Vick is a "heavyweight" in dog-fighting circles. He claimed that Vick owned and fought dogs and bet heavily on them.

That quote is found on the pet-abuse.com website I told you about, taken from an ABC News report on May 31st... that website goes on to say:

Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick was at a dog fight in 2000 and is "one of the heavyweights" in the sport, ESPN reported.

The network Sunday cited a police informant whom a dog-fighting investigator called "extremely reliable."

"That's who bets a large dollar," the informant said on the show "Outside the Lines." "And they have the money to bet large money. As I'm talking about large money, 30 to 40 thousand, even higher. He's one of the heavyweights."

When asked how he knows Vick bets that amount, the informant said, "because I've seen it."

The informant said his dog beat Vick's dog in 2000, the year before Vick was chosen by the Falcons with the first overall pick in the NFL draft.

Investigator David Hunt said information from the informant has "resulted in the arrest of several individuals over the past few years, numerous search warrants, as well as convictions."

That quote is taken from an article in the San Gabriel Valley Tribune, dated May 29th... note that the confidential informant making the claim has proven reliable in past investigations... he may even be one of the 4 confidential witnesses cited in the indictment, though I don't know that to be the case...

It's based on these two articles that I made the claim I made about Vick being a VERY big player in this "sport"... this is supported by the long-term interest the Humane Society of the United States has had in Vick as a player in the dogfighting game:

John Goodwin, who handles dog-fighting issues for the Humane Society of America, was skeptical that Vick was unaware of such a large operation — especially when police were led to the property as part of a drug investigation after arresting the quarterback's 26-year-old cousin, Davon Boddie.

Goodwin said authorities found 66 dogs on the property, mostly pit bulls who appeared to be involved in organized fighting. He estimated it would cost up to $100 a day just to feed that number of animals, not to mention other hefty expenses.

"Who's paying to feed all those dogs?" Goodwin asked. "Who has the money to feed 66 pit bulls that's in some way, shape or form related to that property?"

If you can show me where any of the other named codefendants had the wherewithal to bankroll that operation, I'll be happy to back off my claims that Vick was the "ringleader" of that operation... but given that they were living on the property rent-free, that sure suggests that they didn't have that kind of money...

He said the Humane Society has heard for several years that Vick was personally involved in the brutal, clandestine activity, which is banned nationwide and a felony in 48 states, including Virginia and Georgia. A conviction in Virginia carries a maximum sentence of five years in prison and a $2,500 fine.

"We get a lot of calls, and people were always kind of kicking his name around," Goodwin said.

This is documentation of my assertion that Vick was a "person of interest" that the Humane Society had been watching for some years...

So, you accused me of lying, but I can document where I got the assertions I made... if you have any class in you at all, you'll stand up and apologize (though I won't hold my breath waiting, and won't cry myself to sleep when you don't, since I've lost any respect I once had for you)...

If you notice I don't jump on anyone who is being charged with something, I prefer to see it play out, since I don't have all the facts.

But you're not doing any such thing, to the contrary, you're spending a great deal of energy trying to DEFEND the guy...

So in your own ignorance you assume I am defending him, when in reality I am defending his right the be innocent until proven guilty which is apart of the US contitution.

Oh, bull... saying that dog fighting really isn't that big a deal is defending him, and you know it...
 

CanadianCowboysFan

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Jim Rome was having a real blast ripping Vick today. Even John Wayne Gacey and Jeff Dahmer were writing him via the email saying they were disgusted by Mike Vick ;)
 

Vintage

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CanadianCowboysFan;1554497 said:
Jim Rome was having a real blast ripping Vick today. Even John Wayne Gacey and Jeff Dahmer were writing him via the email saying they were disgusted by Mike Vick ;)


Vick, even if this is true, looks like a Saint compared to those guys.

On a side note, my apartment at school is like some 5 blocks away from where Dahmer lived....
 

CanadianCowboysFan

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Silver, you probably aren't trained in law but the prosecutor will have to have evidence that Vick bankrolled the operation, and cannot convict him simply by saying no one else could have.
 

CanadianCowboysFan

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Vintage;1554499 said:
Vick, even if this is true, looks like a Saint compared to those guys.

On a side note, my apartment at school is like some 5 blocks away from where Dahmer lived....

In an overall sense, yes but we in North America almost seem to care more about our pets than people.
 

Wood

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If Vick is found guilty then I will condemn him, but at this point I won't. I neither like nor dislike Vick as a person (I don’t know him) or a player (I don’t worry about the Falcon’s). Honestly the Vick thing, is more of a passing curiosity to me, since it really doesn’t affect me or my life an any way. I actually find it entertaining to see how much people dislike him.

I don't see Vick being brought up on RICO charges at all. Right now they only have him on one charge and that is a conspiracy charge. I don't believe that falls under the 35 crimes under RICO. Also the charge they have him on is sponsoring a dog in a fight. It is not for running the whole dog fighting ring. If he was running the whole ring then the racketeering charges would apply and he could be punished under RICO. From the evidence in the indictment it seems that he only participated.

One question I do have about RICO laws: do you have to have done something 2 or more times or do you have to be charged with 2 or more counts.

One thing I do find odd is that they only have him for one count of sponsoring a dog in a fight but they have him listed at dog fights at various times. From my understanding each time he attended he was in violation and he could have had a charge each time he attended.

One of my coworkers put it best. If you take a step back and take the emotion out of it; when it comes down to it, its only dog fighting. Chances are even if he gets convicted he pays a fine and that is it. It is rather ridiculous to compare dog fighting to Enron. Enron hurt a lot of people as well as took money out of the federal government’s pocket. Dog fighting only hurt the dogs.

dude crawl back into your cave...its feeding time.
 

dacowboys

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CanadianCowboysFan;1554502 said:
In an overall sense, yes but we in North America almost seem to care more about our pets than people.

I could care less about dogs and I'm from North America. They are worthless anyway.
 

03EBZ06

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Beating a federal rap not easy
By Jason Cato
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Monday, July 31, 2006


Like Las Vegas, the federal court system isn't built on winners.

About 95 percent of federal criminal defendants plead guilty. Of the remaining few who fight in court, nearly nine of 10 are convicted, according to national statistics.

But, on rare occasions, defendants go to trial, win and walk free.

Meet Ryan Schneiderlochner and James Grosjean.

Schneiderlochner, 34, a former Plum police officer, was acquitted July 24 of witness tampering. On the same day, another jury found Grosjean, vice president of a Collier construction company, not guilty of in a multimillion-dollar kickback scheme involving Allegheny Power and two local hospitals.

Many people familiar with Pittsburgh's federal court said they cannot remember another time when two acquittals came in the same week, much less on the same day.

"The odds are pretty stacked against defendants once an indictment is issued; that pretty much seals their fate," said Mark Allenbaugh, a Huntington Beach, Calif., lawyer and nationally recognized expert on the federal court system. "Once the indictment is issued, conviction is almost guaranteed."

Between 2000 and 2005, 99 percent of the 435,000 federal criminal defendants prosecuted nationwide were convicted. The conviction rate was the same for the 2,130 criminal defendants prosecuted during that period in the Western District of Pennsylvania.

Of the 420 people prosecuted last year in the Western District, 415 were found guilty by plea or jury, according to the Administrative Office of U.S. Courts.

A high conviction rate might spell tough-on-crime for some, but not for attorney Paul Boas, who defended Schneiderlochner.

"A 90-plus percent conviction rate isn't something that should be applauded. I think it's something you should worry about," Boas said. "That's what you see in totalitarian regimes."

He said Congress and the U.S. Supreme Court in recent decades have made it easier for federal prosecutors. He doesn't blame prosecutors for using weapons they're provided, but he thinks it has skewed the federal court system.

"Taking away someone's freedoms should never be easy," Boas said. "Unfortunately, it's become way too easy."

In federal court, charges typically are brought only when prosecutors are convinced they can get a conviction or plea. That leads to far fewer cases filed each year than state court, where more than 95 percent of criminal cases are handled.

While local federal prosecutors disposed of 420 criminal cases in 2005, more than 16,000 criminal cases were handled in Allegheny County Common Pleas Court.

U.S. Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan said plea deals are attractive to most federal defendants because her office prosecutes only cases that have been thoroughly investigated and evaluated. Federal prosecutors often work from the beginning with investigators, such as FBI agents, to build cases from the ground up -- a luxury not always enjoyed by county district attorneys.

Once defendants see the evidence, Buchanan said, most recognize they'd be better off pleading guilty.

Those found guilty at trial often face tougher sentences for causing the government to expend additional resources -- and for not taking breaks provided by federal sentencing guidelines and prosecutors for pleading guilty.

For example, a federal drug raid of a Shadyside apartment in February 2005 turned up a makeshift meth lab in a unit occupied by a Ross police officer and his girlfriend. Each was charged with three counts of conspiring to make methamphetamine and possessing the necessary equipment.

The officer, Michael Baird, pleaded guilty after striking a deal to have two charges dropped. U.S. District Judge Alan Bloch limited Baird's sentence to four months of time served, plus one year of probation -- including six months of electronic monitoring -- and a $2,000 fine.

His girlfriend, Jennifer Paczan, was found guilty by a jury. Bloch sentenced her to 33 months in prison.

Former U.S. Attorney Frederick Thieman said defendants shouldn't face tougher sentences just because they went to trial.

"There's a ridiculous cost to exercising your constitutional right to go to trial," Thieman said. "The stakes are too high."

Buchanan said defendants always have the right to go to trial.

"If a defendant believes they did not commit the crime as charged, or if they believe the government cannot prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, then a defendant absolutely has the right to a jury trial," Buchanan said.

Those who lose shouldn't expect leniency after the fact, Buchanan said.

"They can't have it both ways," she said.

For Grosjean, the construction company executive acquitted last week, there was no alternative other than fighting the charges, said his attorney, Philip Ignelzi. Grosjean turned down a deal on the eve of trial to plead guilty and receive probation, Ignelzi said.

"Pleading guilty was never an option, and we said that from Day One," Ignelzi said. "But it's a tremendous roll of the dice, even when you have a defendable case."
 
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