Vick Poll

[03EBZ06]

Dunno what you are talking about.

Why would they detain him while they conducted an investigation? This is dog fighting; not capital murder/suspected of terrorism (insert political jokes of Guantanamo Bay).

I think he meant charged and arrested already, at least that is what I got out of it.

 

[fortdick]

The court system is made up of men. Men have been known to make mistakes all the time.

Sometimes the things they do are not due to a mistake but to their own flights of fancy.

Look at Nifong and the Duke case.

And Poindexter is a real prosecutor? Why didn't he execute the search warrant for the doggie corpses? And saying that he didn;t like the language is absured. The DA's office had to have been involved in obtaining the warrant. Why would they let investigators present a bad warrant to the judge?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Sure they do. All it takes is probable cause, which is a pretty low bar.

I'm glad you seem to have knowledge on the subject. Tell me, what exactly is needed to get a Federal Warrent?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Dunno what you are talking about.

Why would they detain him while they conducted an investigation? This is dog fighting; not capital murder/suspected of terrorism (insert political jokes of Guantanamo Bay).

If he were an average Joe, he would have been pulled in and probably charged by now. He would have posted bail and been released, awaiting a court date. He has never even seen the inside of a booking area. It's different for him all the way around. I just find it amusing that anybody would say that he is being treated unfairly by the system when, in point of fact, if he were anybody else he would already have seen the inside of a jail and had to have gone through the process for release. To me, he's benifited from the system much more then an average person would in a simular situation.

 

[fortdick]

Sure they do. All it takes is probable cause, which is a pretty low bar.

Probable cause is not a low bar. You might have that confused with just cause, or even reasonable cause. A citizen can arrest someone with probable cuase. It is a fairly high threshold.

Where is Peplaw when you need him? Dern lawyers!

 

[theogt]

Probable cause is not a low bar. You might have that confused with just cause, or even reasonable cause. A citizen can arrest someone with probable cuase. It is a fairly high threshold.

Where is Peplaw when you need him? Dern lawyers!

No, I'm not confusing it. Relatively speaking it's a very low bar.

And there's no such evidentiary standard as "just cause."

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

No, I'm not confusing it. Relatively speaking it's a very low bar.

And there's no such evidentiary standard as "just cause." "Reasonable cause" is often used interchangeably with "probable cause."

Can you give detail on what justifies "Probable/Reasonable Cause?" IE, what would you have to present to a Federal Judge to get such a Warrant issued?

 

[fortdick]

Can you give detail on what justifies "Probable/Reasonable Cause?" IE, what would you have to present to a Federal Judge to get such a Warrant issued?

The standard in state copurt (and I presume Fedral court) is that you have to have a belief that a crime was committed and that evidence of the crime can be obtained via the search. Probable Cause means that there is enough information for a reasonable person to conclude that a crime was probably comitted and that the suspect wa reasonable. Reasonable cause means that is is reasonable to conclude that something happened. Sorry that it can't really be explained better, but courts have been struggling with defining these for centuries. The standard I was taught was that probable cause is 90% certainty and reasonbable cause 75% certainty. Probable cause must be based upon valid evidence, like an eyewitness or a direct evidentiary link.

No, I'm not confusing it. Relatively speaking it's a very low bar.

And there's no such evidentiary standard as "just cause."

You might better recognize this as a preponderance. There is a joke that goes someting like, I had a valid reason to search him; just cause. I have seen Fedral courts set this standard in different matters, but I believe the legal term is a preponderance of evidence.

 

[theogt]

The standard in state copurt (and I presume Fedral court) is that you have to have a belief that a crime was committed and that evidence of the crime can be obtained via the search. Probable Cause means that there is enough information for a reasonable person to conclude that a crime was probably comitted and that the suspect wa reasonable. Reasonable cause means that is is reasonable to conclude that something happened. Sorry that it can't really be explained better, but courts have been struggling with defining these for centuries. The standard I was taught was that probable cause is 90% certainty and reasonbable cause 75% certainty. Probable cause must be based upon valid evidence, like an eyewitness or a direct evidentiary link.

You're right, the courts have struggled with defining them. I wouldn't use the percentages at all, and if I did, I certainly wouldn't use those percentages.

You might better recognize this as a preponderance. There is a joke that goes someting like, I had a valid reason to search him; just cause. I have seen Fedral courts set this standard in different matters, but I believe the legal term is a preponderance of evidence.

No, a preponderance of the evidence is another legal standard, higher than probable cause.

 

[theogt]

Can you give detail on what justifies "Probable/Reasonable Cause?" IE, what would you have to present to a Federal Judge to get such a Warrant issued?

Probable cause is higher than reasonable cause.

It generally goes:

1. Beyond a reasonable doubt.
2. Clear and convincing evidence.
3. Preponderance of evidence.
4. Probable cause.
5. Reasonable cause/suspsicion.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is obviously the strictest and hardest to overcome. Reasonable cause is the least strict. As you can see, probable cause is relatively low on the totem pole of evidentiary standards.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Probable cause is higher than reasonable cause.

It generally goes:

1. Beyond a reasonable doubt.
2. Clear and convincing evidence.
3. Preponderance of evidence.
4. Probable cause.
5. Reasonable cause/suspsicion.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is obviously the strictest and hardest to overcome. Reasonable cause is the least strict. As you can see, probable cause is relatively low on the totem pole of evidentiary standards.

So your saying, Probable Cause is enough for a Federal Judge to issue a Federal Search Warrant, it that correct?

Can you give a definition of Probable Cause and an example of what might be present as Probably Cause?

Not trying to be a Jerk. I'm just trying to understand why it would be so easy to get a Warrant. Seems to me that searching a mans private life is a pretty big deal and, under normal circumstances, a violation of one's civil rights.

For example, under the Virgina Constitution Bill of Rights, it' says the following.

CONSTITUTION
OF THE
STATE OF VIRGINIA

ARTICLE I

BILL OF RIGHTS

A declaration of rights made by the good people of Virginia
in the exercise of their sovereign powers, which rights do
pertain to them and their posterity, as the basis and found-
ation of government.

Sec. 1. That all men are by nature equally free and independent and
have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into
a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or
divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and
liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing prop-
erty, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.


Sec. 10. That general warrants, whereby an officer or messenger may
be commanded to search suspected places without evidence of
a fact committed, or to seize any person or persons not
named, or whose offense is not particularly described and
supported by evidence, are grievous and oppressive, and
ought not to be granted.

Now, I understand that this is now a Federal Warrant but since it seems to be pretty clear that it's not as easy as just going in and saying to the judge, "I think he's hidding something", I'm wondering what might be different in a Federal Court and exactly what needs to be presented to get authorization for a Warrant.

 

[fortdick]

You're right, the courts have struggled with defining them. I wouldn't use the percentages at all, and if I did, I certainly wouldn't use those percentages.

Just cause would be the standard used to evaluate a decision made in the spur of the moment. For instance, a officer is investigating a robbery with shots heard and fires his gun at the suspect that he thought was an immediate threat. Later, finding out the suspect was carrying a toy gun and pointed it at the officer. There was just cause for the officer to believe his life was in danger and he acted in self defense.

No, a preponderance of the evidence is another legal standard, higher than probable cause.

Better check again. A predonderance is what tips the scale. 51-49 is a prepondrance. You are thinking of burden of proof in a civil case, or such.

http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=1586&bold=||||
preponderance of the evidence
n. the greater weight of the evidence required in a civil (non-criminal) lawsuit for the trier of fact (jury or judge without a jury) to decide in favor of one side or the other. This preponderance is based on the more convincing evidence and its probable truth or accuracy, and not on the amount of evidence. Thus, one clearly knowledgeable witness may provide a preponderance of evidence over a dozen witnesses with hazy testimony, or a signed agreement with definite terms may outweigh opinions or speculation about what the parties intended. Preponderance of the evidence is required in a civil case and is contrasted with "beyond a reasonable doubt," which is the more severe test of evidence required to convict in a criminal trial. No matter what the definition stated in various legal opinions, the meaning is somewhat subjective.

 

[Concord]

Vick's Garbage...He's guilty of giving a girl Herpes and he's guilty of Dog Fighting.

There's no doubt in my mind.

 

[silverbear]

That point is lost on most of these guys. Mainly because they did not like him in the 1st place.

I didn't care much one way or the other about Vick until I heard about the dogfighting thing... I wasn't impressed with him the one time I encountered him in real life, thought he was a jerk, but I mostly laughed about the Ron Mexico thing, and I didn't get real worked up over the water bottle incident...

My anger at him now is the same anger I'd direct toward anybody who's involved in fighting dogs to the death for fun and profit... and yes, based on what I've seen and read about this sorry spectacle, I'm convinced he IS up to his neck in that contemptible "hobby"...

 

[fortdick]

Probable cause is higher than reasonable cause.

It generally goes:

1. Beyond a reasonable doubt.
2. Clear and convincing evidence.
4. Probable cause.
5. Reasonable cause/suspsicion.
3. Preponderance of evidence. (This is subjective and based upon the standard applied to. A small claim court judge makes a ruling based upon a preponderance of evidence.)

Beyond a reasonable doubt is obviously the strictest and hardest to overcome. Reasonable cause is the least strict. As you can see, probable cause is relatively low on the totem pole of evidentiary standards.

I have reordered your list. I imagine that preponderance is a confusing thing for some. but in essence it is what ever tips the scales one way or the other. A predonderance is generally less than either rreasonable doubt or probable cuase.

Probable cause is the highest standard that law enforcement has to meet. After that, it is up to the proscutor to present a cause that meets the reasonable doubt standrd. You are actually talking apples and oranges when you discuss probable cause and reasonable doubt.

A police officer can arrest you with reasonable cause if he/she believes a felony has been committed in their presence. They need probable cause to arrest if the crime was committed outside of their presence. You can only make a citizens arrest if you have probable cause. Generally, search warrants are obtained when evidence exists that someone is guilty of a crime and you have probable evidence that the search will (not may) provide evidence of the crime. The will versus may is huge. You can't go fishing. You have to be specific about what you are looking for and evidence that it is at the location to be searched.

These are standards applied to law enforcement. Courts have different standards based on the nature of the case and their particular jurisdiction.

 

[5Stars]

Vick's Garbage...He's guilty of giving a girl Herpes and he's guilty of Dog Fighting.

There's no doubt in my mind.

That is an interesting observation!

I wonder if Vick gave Herpes to any of his dogs?

 

[jay cee]

If he were an average Joe, he would have been pulled in and probably charged by now. He would have posted bail and been released, awaiting a court date. He has never even seen the inside of a booking area. It's different for him all the way around. I just find it amusing that anybody would say that he is being treated unfairly by the system when, in point of fact, if he were anybody else he would already have seen the inside of a jail and had to have gone through the process for release. To me, he's benifited from the system much more then an average person would in a simular situation.

Have they even charged the guy that was living at the house?

Until they can get proof that he was involved, why would they charge Vick with something, if he wasn't living at the house?

 

[Concord]

That is an interesting observation!

I wonder if Vick gave Herpes to any of his dogs?

What are you confused about?

He gave a girl herpes...Hence he's garbage.

He's a Dog Fighter...Hence he's garbage.

 

[5Stars]

What are you confused about?

He gave a girl herpes...Hence he's garbage.

He's a Dog Fighter...Hence he's garbage.

What about the dogs...that's all I trying to figure out!

 

[Concord]

What about the dogs...that's all I trying to figure out!

Are you trying to be funny?