Video: Bradie James & Roy Williams

[theogt]

The title of this thread is "Bradie James & Roy Williams" but yeah, Roy is not a part of this.

As I suspected on my original post to Rosh.

Good point. I'm an idiot. Sorry. But my point still stands -- I don't understand how saying Roy also sucks negates anything about James, and that appeared to be what you were doing.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Good point. I'm an idiot. Sorry. But my point still stands -- I don't understand how saying Roy also sucks negates anything about James, and that appeared to be what you were doing.

I'm sorry that is what you get out of that post. Even as I went back and re-read that to myself just a moment ago, that is not what I said. In fact, I never said that Roy Williams sucks at all. He can't cover in space but that's not the same thing to me. No matter, the point was and is that Bradie James is not an 8th over all pick for this club. If somebody comes out and posts the fact that Bradie James is not a great player, it's going to glide through because people see him for what he is. If you post the same thing about RLW, it's going to cause a firestorm because even though the evidence is the same, it can not be so for Roy. Why? I've explained why but that explination will never be accepted as reality just as what I posted earlier doesn't register as anything other then "Roy Sucks" to you.

This is why I find this discussion pointless.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

you mean Saban, Spears' old coach

yeah Saban.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Never missed a weight ever? You sure Fuzzy?

Fourth-rounders agree to contract terms

Canty, Barber in fold; team still working on Ware, Spears, Burnett

07:18 AM CDT on Friday, July 29, 2005

By JEAN-JACQUES TAYLOR / The Dallas Morning News

OXNARD, Calif. – The Cowboys agreed to terms with their two fourth-round picks Thursday, but vice president Stephen Jones still has a lot of work to do before the team's first practice in two days.

Running back Marion Barber III and defensive end Chris Canty each received five-year contracts that pay them minimum salaries and void to three years, if they achieve certain playing time incentives.

Terms were not released.

CowboysPlus.com


Cowboys enter camp upbeat
Archer: Cowboys can't let weather fool them
Mosley: Optimism runs high as players report
Hansen: Hoping for better
Fourth rounders agree to contract terms
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Training camp schedule
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But Jones, who handles the club's negotiations, still needs to get first-round picks Demarcus Ware and Marcus Spears and second-round pick Kevin Burnett signed.

Spears was the only member of the unsigned trio to accompany his teammates to California. Burnett lives in Los Angeles, an hour south of Oxnard, and Ware is in Atlanta.

"We're still talking and hopefully we'll get it done soon," Spears said. "I want to be here, so I'm ready as soon as we get it done. I'm a little nervous about the start of training camp, but that's to be expected."

Spears is also nervous about what coach Bill Parcells is going to say when he finds out that Spears isn't at his assigned weight of 294 pounds. Spears declined to say how much over his target weight he is, but admitted he felt weak and sluggish at that weight.

He hopes to convince Parcells to let him play at 300 or 305.

"I'm going to talk to him about it," Spears said. "I've never had a problem with conditioning, but I know he wants me a little lower than I am right now."

Spears said he thinks the extra weight will help him play defensive end in the Cowboys' scheme, which will require him to go head up on tackles who will generally outweigh him by 25-30 pounds. At LSU, he played defensive tackle and was usually aligned on the guard's outside shoulder so he could use his quickness.

Owner Jerry Jones said he isn't worried about whether his three unsigned players will be on the field for the first day of practice.

"I'm not any more concerned than I usually am," he said. "I know how the negotiations are going. I expect them all in by Saturday."

The Cowboys have not had a draft pick miss a portion of training camp since Flozell Adams, a second-round pick, missed the first two days in 1998.

E-mail jjtaylor@***BANNED-URL***
Online at: http://www.cowboysplus.com/topstorync/stories/072905cpearlycowlede.1bacfe09.html

kk then since july of 2005 hes made weight every time and not may of 2005. that was the first full squad minicamp.

 

[theogt]

I'm sorry that is what you get out of that post. Even as I went back and re-read that to myself just a moment ago, that is not what I said. In fact, I never said that Roy Williams sucks at all. He can't cover in space but that's not the same thing to me. No matter, the point was and is that Bradie James is not an 8th over all pick for this club. If somebody comes out and posts the fact that Bradie James is not a great player, it's going to glide through because people see him for what he is. If you post the same thing about RLW, it's going to cause a firestorm because even though the evidence is the same, it can not be so for Roy. Why? I've explained why but that explination will never be accepted as reality just as what I posted earlier doesn't register as anything other then "Roy Sucks" to you.

This is why I find this discussion pointless.

Or maybe people simply disagree with your assessment of Roy because they simply disagree. It's kinda lazy to just dismiss someone's argument because you think they're just being a Roy homer.

You said Roy was a liability, that he wasn't getting the job done, etc. Saying "Roy sucks" was just me summarizing your argument.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Or maybe people simply disagree with your assessment of Roy because they simply disagree. It's kinda lazy to just dismiss someone's argument because you think they're just being a Roy homer.

You said Roy was a liability, that he wasn't getting the job done, etc. Saying "Roy sucks" was just me summarizing your argument.

Let me just point out that it's not just my assessment. Clearly, there are more then just a couple here and there that believe this. However, I am open to be convinced. I have been as such from the start. Tell me what the difference is in James last year and Roy. They both have issues covering in space. They both missed big tackles that cost us. They both need to improve. The single biggest difference, for me is the fact that Bradie was never drafted to be the face of the Cowboys. Other then that, the same kinds of things can be said about each player.

I said Roy was a liability in coverage. Roy did not get the job done last year. That, to me, does not mean sucks but if that's how you would like to characterize that, then by all means, please do so. However, I draw the line at you claiming that's what I said. If that's how you wish to view it, be clear and say that those are your words, not mine. I do not believe Williams sucks. I also don't believe he is the be all, end all at safety. Last year, I thought he was more middle of the road and I definatly didn't think he deserved the Pro Bowl but that's just an opinion on my part. Nothing more.

 

[theogt]

Let me just point out that it's not just my assessment. Clearly, there are more then just a couple here and there that believe this. However, I am open to be convinced. I have been as such from the start. Tell me what the difference is in James last year and Roy. They both have issues covering in space. They both missed big tackles that cost us. They both need to improve. The single biggest difference, for me is the fact that Bradie was never drafted to be the face of the Cowboys. Other then that, the same kinds of things can be said about each player.

I said Roy was a liability in coverage. Roy did not get the job done last year. That, to me, does not mean sucks but if that's how you would like to characterize that, then by all means, please do so. However, I draw the line at you claiming that's what I said. If that's how you wish to view it, be clear and say that those are your words, not mine. I do not believe Williams sucks. I also don't believe he is the be all, end all at safety. Last year, I thought he was more middle of the road and I definatly didn't think he deserved the Pro Bowl but that's just an opinion on my part. Nothing more.

Statistically Roy was better than 2/3 of all safeties last year. If you broke those down into just SSs, then that number would probably go up.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Too many fans seem to have this perception that in order to be a good player a player can never fail or make a mistake.

I see people say that Romo is not accurate because he missed on a couple of throws just like I see people saying Roy is a liability just because he got burned or appeared to get burned.

Troy Aikman missed on some throws.
Emmitt Smith didnt always hit the right hole.
Darren Woodson gave up TDs.
Michael Irvin dropped a pass.
Tom Landry did not always call the right defense.
Deion Sanders has actually lost yardage on a punt return.
Randy White got blocked.
Larry Allen missed quite a few blocks.

Its not that failures that make greatness. Its the success. There were a couple of gmaes where Roy took over either with timely interceptions and tackles or just plain intimidating an entire receiving crew. Those passes he knocked down and those picks he made were real. That was him making those crushing hits all over the field.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Statistically Roy was better than 2/3 of all safeties last year. If you broke those down into just SSs, then that number would probably go up.

The problem is that he's paid to be one of the top 3 or 4 safeties in the NFL. Not to be one of the top 10 to 15. In the Cowboys defensive scheme last year, there was no strong or free safety. Both safeties had to be able to play either position. To say that he's among the top SS is a moot point IMO. He doesn't play SS for us. I said that I thought Roy was more Middle of the Road previously. I think what your saying here supports that view. Perhaps that's just me reading what I want to read but honestly, I don't view Roy as one of the top 2 or 3 safeties in the league. His performance last year was very average IMO. Just how I see it.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Too many fans seem to have this perception that in order to be a good player a player can never fail or make a mistake.

I see people say that Romo is not accurate because he missed on a couple of throws just like I see people saying Roy is a liability just because he got burned or appeared to get burned.

Troy Aikman missed on some throws.
Emmitt Smith didnt always hit the right hole.
Darren Woodson gave up TDs.
Michael Irvin dropped a pass.
Tom Landry did not always call the right defense.
Deion Sanders has actually lost yardage on a punt return.
Randy White got blocked.
Larry Allen missed quite a few blocks.

Its not that failures that make greatness. Its the success. There were a couple of gmaes where Roy took over either with timely interceptions and tackles or just plain intimidating an entire receiving crew. Those passes he knocked down and those picks he made were real. That was him making those crushing hits all over the field.

Great players make plays. HOF players make the plays there are supposed to make consistantly. It's all well and good to say that Troy Aikman missed passes but the truth of the matter, IMO, is that he made the plays he was supposed to make. I'm not asking Troy to make the impossible play 90% of the time. I'm asking him to make the play he should be able to make 90% of the time. That's the difference between being a great player and just a player IMO.

 

[theogt]

The problem is that he's paid to be one of the top 3 or 4 safeties in the NFL. Not to be one of the top 10 to 15. In the Cowboys defensive scheme last year, there was no strong or free safety. Both safeties had to be able to play either position. To say that he's among the top SS is a moot point IMO. He doesn't play SS for us. I said that I thought Roy was more Middle of the Road previously. I think what your saying here supports that view. Perhaps that's just me reading what I want to read but honestly, I don't view Roy as one of the top 2 or 3 safeties in the league. His performance last year was very average IMO. Just how I see it.

So your problem with Roy is that he's one of the better safeties in the league in coverage, but he's not one of the best. Gotcha. Roy wasn't paid to be the best coverage safety in the league. If he was being used, that's not his fault. As you and IR have pointed out with James, if the player is being misused, it's not his fault.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

So your problem with Roy is that he's one of the better safeties in the league in coverage, but he's not one of the best. Gotcha. Roy wasn't paid to be the best coverage safety in the league. If he was being used, that's not his fault. As you and IR have pointed out with James, if the player is being misused, it's not his fault.

I would not say, under any circumstances, that RLW is one of the better safeties in coverage. In fact, I 'd say he's adequate at best. His value is impact IMO. He makes a difference in coverage only when he can lay wood. His actual coverage skills are horrible IMO. He doesn't adjust well to the ball while in the air, he takes horrible angles to the ball and he really doesn't use his hands well when trying to break up passes. I have long since acknowledged that I think RLW is being used wrong but at the same time, it is what it is. We were stupid to spend so high a pick on a safety that was never going to be used in the way he could be most effective. The league has consistantly moved towards a position of less violent contact where receivers are concerned. This is Roy's biggest asset. It's unfortunate that his best weapon of defense is penalized by the league so often but there is nothing I can do about that. Those are the rules in place and those are the directions being followed by the NFL. It may not be Roy's fault that he is being used in the way he is or that he is being paid the way he is being paid but the fact remains, he's not getting it done in these areas. I feel bad that he is in the position he is in but that doesn't prevent me from realizing that he must either step up and get better in these areas or be replaced by a player who is capable of making plays in this area. How will Phillips use Roy? I don't know. I hope the answer is not one that involves him playing predominantly in a Cover2.

 

[adbutcher]

And this is what I'm talking about. People are so intent on blaming James, a player I am not in love with BTW, for not being able to cover one of the most athletic TEs in the NFL 40 yards down the field when in truth, there aren't 3 LBs IMO, who could cover that pattern the way the defense was designed to play it. I mean, the only way Brady has a chance on that play is if he's 20 yards off the ball playing where a safety should be lining up. The chuck on the TE also sucked but that's fine. I guess what I'm saying is if you expect James to be able to cover that, then you gotta give him a chance to cover it and in the location on the field James was lined up, there is no way he could not have been in a trailing position on that play. You would have to have help from the Safety. BTW, we don't play a Tampa2, which is the defense designed for the MLB to play the deep deep zone. Cover2 and Tampa2 are two different coverages. This has all been gone over and explained but to no avail. So, if Brady was so far out of position on the play, why didn't anybody call it out? Why didn't the team call a TO to get the alignment right? My guess is because that's the way it was designed to be played. Brady James is not my ideal player but I think it's rediculouse to throw him under the bus for that play. James was in about as good a trailing position as you can be for that play if your a MLB. The only way that play is completed is if the ball is out in front of the TE. In a situation like that, you must have a Safety coming up to lay the wood. Otherwise, your asking to get beat. Basically, your designing a defense that can not succeed. Or could it be, that there should have been help for James over the top on the deep seam?

Hmmm...so what you are saying is, Good coaches put their players in position to succeed. Bah! Cooky talk!

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Hmmm...so what you are saying is, Good coaches put their players in position to succeed. Bah! Cooky talk!

Yeah. This is always a bad discussion for me to get invovled in. My views are almost never popular, I like the player so my heart is never in the discussion, so to speak, and it's always a question of what value could RLW have if he were used in a way that would optimise his abilities to there fullest. I should no better but I always manage to get myself sucked into these discussions.

At some point, you have to do a self analysis and come to the conclusion that your not a wise man. That's in process now.

:laugh2:

 

[theogt]

I would not say, under any circumstances, that RLW is one of the better safeties in coverage. In fact, I 'd say he's adequate at best. His value is impact IMO. He makes a difference in coverage only when he can lay wood. His actual coverage skills are horrible IMO. He doesn't adjust well to the ball while in the air, he takes horrible angles to the ball and he really doesn't use his hands well when trying to break up passes.

In 2005 he was a top 5 strong safety in terms coverage stats. In 2006 he was top 1/3 among all safeties. Not sure how he ranks among strong safeties. You can call that "adequate." I call that "better than most" or "one of the better safeties in the league." It's whatever.

I have long since acknowledged that I think RLW is being used wrong but at the same time, it is what it is. We were stupid to spend so high a pick on a safety that was never going to be used in the way he could be most effective.

Again, why does this excuse Bradie James in your eyes, but not Williams?

The league has consistantly moved towards a position of less violent contact where receivers are concerned. This is Roy's biggest asset. It's unfortunate that his best weapon of defense is penalized by the league so often but there is nothing I can do about that. Those are the rules in place and those are the directions being followed by the NFL. It may not be Roy's fault that he is being used in the way he is or that he is being paid the way he is being paid but the fact remains, he's not getting it done in these areas. I feel bad that he is in the position he is in but that doesn't prevent me from realizing that he must either step up and get better in these areas or be replaced by a player who is capable of making plays in this area. How will Phillips use Roy? I don't know. I hope the answer is not one that involves him playing predominantly in a Cover2.

Agreed regarding the league rules. I never drew the connection until now, but during the first half of last season, Roy played like his normal self -- a strong safety that made bone-crushing hits. That trailed off in the 2nd half of the season. Some speculated that it was because of a shoulder injury, but come to think of it, but maybe to some extent it was an effect of the league cracking down on those hits. Remember the Roy pick 6 that was called back because of Newman's hit? That kinda penalty call (or rule) just makes you want to throw your remote at the television. Nothing we can do about it, though.

Oh, and I don't mind running a Cover 2 on occasion. In fact, I'd prefer to keep it in the mix, just so we're not limiting ourselves, but I do not want Bradie James in the play on a Cover 2 call.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Again, why does this excuse Bradie James in your eyes, but not Williams?

Agreed regarding the league rules. I never drew the connection until now, but during the first half of last season, Roy played like his normal self -- a strong safety that made bone-crushing hits. That trailed off in the 2nd half of the season. Some speculated that it was because of a shoulder injury, but come to think of it, but maybe to some extent it was an effect of the league cracking down on those hits. Remember the Roy pick 6 that was called back because of Newman's hit? That kinda penalty call (or rule) just makes you want to throw your remote at the television. Nothing we can do about it, though.

Oh, and I don't mind running a Cover 2 on occasion. In fact, I'd prefer to keep it in the mix, just so we're not limiting ourselves, but I do not want Bradie James in the play on a Cover 2 call.

I appoligize. I am a bit confused here. I am not aware of posting anything that would make you think that I believe it was OK that James couldn't cover but unacceptable that Roy could not either. If you could direct me to that post, I would appriciate it.

I'm fine with running Cover2 if you have the personel that can execute it. I'm even OK with running it as a change of pace, just to keep the opposition off balance. I'm not OK with running it as the staple coverage of our defense. If you cling to the believe that Roy Williams is best served by playing close to the line of scrimmage, then you can't really buy into Cover2. For this reason alone, I am not in favor of running Cover2 a great deal. However, when we do, I don't want to see either player in on the field. Neither is suited to that style of play, IMO.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

In 2005 he was a top 5 strong safety in terms coverage stats. In 2006 he was top 1/3 among all safeties. Not sure how he ranks among strong safeties. You can call that "adequate." I call that "better than most" or "one of the better safeties in the league." It's whatever.

The question is, is it number 8 over all and the contract that goes along with that, good? If the answer is yes in your mind, then OK. For me, the answer is not good enough. Because of what we have invested in him, this is not a player that should be limited from playing in the most used coverage scheme in the league. To me, that's just rediculous. I will also say that while coverage statistics might say he's in the top 33.3% but that just doesn't make me feel very good. IMO, he should be in the top 10%. I would add that it does not measure his tackling ability. This is probably the most disappointing thing about this whole situation IMO. His tackling has fallen way off. Last year, Roy missed more tackles then I've ever seen him miss. I saw more guys clear Roy out then visa versa. This is supposed to be his strength and last year, I can't say that it was. I hope that it was due to injury but I guess time will tell.

 

[theogt]

The question is, is it number 8 over all and the contract that goes along with that, good? If the answer is yes in your mind, then OK. For me, the answer is not good enough. Because of what we have invested in him, this is not a player that should be limited from playing in the most used coverage scheme in the league. To me, that's just rediculous. I will also say that while coverage statistics might say he's in the top 33.3% but that just doesn't make me feel very good. IMO, he should be in the top 10%.

He may be in the top 10% among SSs. He was in 2005, but we don't know about 2006. Regardless, the day after the draft, I forget all about where a person was drafted. I don't care where Tony Romo was drafted. I don't care where Jason Witten was drafted. I compare starters with other starters. If Tony Romo is above average, great. Same with Roy and same with Witten.

As far as contract, Roy's contract isn't that big, especially considering the market these days, and the relative value of that contract will only go down in time. It's not as if it was prohibitive in any fashion.

I would add that it does not measure his tackling ability. This is probably the most disappointing thing about this whole situation IMO. His tackling has fallen way off. Last year, Roy missed more tackles then I've ever seen him miss. I saw more guys clear Roy out then visa versa. This is supposed to be his strength and last year, I can't say that it was. I hope that it was due to injury but I guess time will tell.

Yes, his tackling, hitting, and overall ability against the run tailed off in 06. That may have been because of an injury, as others have speculated, but we'll never know. We'll just have to wait and see what happens in 07. If he continues to play at that level, and I don't think he will, then yeah, it will be very disappointing.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

He may be in the top 10% among SSs. He was in 2005, but we don't know about 2006. Regardless, the day after the draft, I forget all about where a person was drafted. I don't care where Tony Romo was drafted. I don't care where Jason Witten was drafted. I compare starters with other starters. If Tony Romo is above average, great. Same with Roy and same with Witten.

As far as contract, Roy's contract isn't that big, especially considering the market these days, and the relative value of that contract will only go down in time. It's not as if it was prohibitive in any fashion.

Yes, his tackling, hitting, and overall ability against the run tailed off in 06. That may have been because of an injury, as others have speculated, but we'll never know. We'll just have to wait and see what happens in 07. If he continues to play at that level, and I don't think he will, then yeah, it will be very disappointing.

If he is to be viewed as any other player, then it should not be tabu to hold him to his play on the field. That, to me, is not representative of the top 33% but I suppose that is subjective. Either way, in the end, we two have different views and expectations of RLW. You do not consider where he was taken in the draft and I feel it is definatly associative. If I find an UFA and he becomes a solid Starting QB in the NFL, then I view that player as a major success for the club. If I spend a top 10 pick on a safety and he only ever becomes as effective as the 10th or 12th best safety in the league, then I don't feel as if he is a major success. I feel as if we failed to capitolize on a rare opportunity. That's just how I see it.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

ABQ your going on anecdots and not veru good ones at that. There are only about 3 or 4 strong safties that you could replace with and have them perform better in coverage. That is what Theo is trying to explain to you.

Factor he is arguably the best SS when it comes to stopping the run and there is no question why he goes to the probowl every year.

When you look at the stats of the safties in terms of YPA and comp% Roy Willimas is very good for safties in general but excellent for strong safties in particular. You can say hes a liability all day long but thats just an anecdote and really doesnt mean much beyond an emotional appeal.

if you want to see a SS thats a liability against the pass go look at how Boulware played last year for Seattle.