Was Dak the best QB of the 2016 draft?

garyo1954

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Yeah I don't want to be perceived as painting Cousins as some sort of stumblebum. He's a quality NFL starter. Certainly he belongs in the top 20 to top 15 conversation. But if the Cowboys offered Dak to Minny for Cousins straight up how many nanoseconds would elapse before they said yes? I put the over/under at 5. And if we are comparing his years after he started to figure things out to Dak's entire career aren't we being a tad unfair? Cousins stunk up the joint for the most part in Washington until 2015. His numbers were god-awful especially considering he was playing in Shanahan's and then Gruden's WCO. An offense known to inflate the QB's numbers. I can't just act like those years never happened. Good on him for finally figuring things out to some extent in 2015. But save for Romo going down that's probably a losing season out of the playoffs for him too. Remember his only win against the Cowboys as a Commander came that year .. opposite Kellen Moore. Even after he started playing at a higher level he still went 0-4 against Dak and the Cowboys and was 0-2 against Romo. I'm sure that didn't endear him to the Skins' brass or the fans either for that matter.


I gotcha. Not a problem with me how anyone paints him. But I'm not sure how a fair comparison can be made.
On one hand, had RGIII not gotten hurt, Cousins may have spent his whole career as a benchwarmer, somewhat like Romo, Moore, and Dak.

A season per season comparison or a block of seasons for each player like they used to do in the old days, "the in his best years" comparison might be possible.

Still, from 2012 to 2014 he was a backup to RGIII so (I agree) he did what backups like Brandon Weeden, Cooper Rush, or Ben DiNucci do.
And by all rights the argument could be made that Jay Gruden should have been allowed to draft his own QB.

So you make some valid points. I still think though, if you have a player you don't want, or a disgruntled player who doesn't want to be there, you get rid of him before he becomes a locker room dysfunction.

Washington didn't hurt anybody but themselves when they offered him $19.5m and he knew he would get $19.9m on the tag.
They compounded their problem coming back with a contract for 2017 around $23.9m when he knew he would $24.5m on the second tag.
He made $44m in those two years betting on himself when signing a contract would have paid $43.4m.
A third tag would have brought him a cool $34m. We can play this game all day long and he'll always come out better playing year to year on a tag.

I suppose there are a number of factors that lead to his decisions, but it didn't affect his play on the field.

And a fair comparison might not be possible at all since there will always be the "he had a better team," "he had more experience," "better coaching," or "better system," or whatever reason could be offered for the disparity.

Frankly, I wouldn't choose Cousins over Dak, but that's just my opinion.
 

Whirlwin

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Obviously yes . to say otherwise . Well it’s speaks for itself
 

Whirlwin

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I gotcha. Not a problem with me how anyone paints him. But I'm not sure how a fair comparison can be made.
On one hand, had RGIII not gotten hurt, Cousins may have spent his whole career as a benchwarmer, somewhat like Romo, Moore, and Dak.

A season per season comparison or a block of seasons for each player like they used to do in the old days, "the in his best years" comparison might be possible.

Still, from 2012 to 2014 he was a backup to RGIII so (I agree) he did what backups like Brandon Weeden, Cooper Rush, or Ben DiNucci do.
And by all rights the argument could be made that Jay Gruden should have been allowed to draft his own QB.

So you make some valid points. I still think though, if you have a player you don't want, or a disgruntled player who doesn't want to be there, you get rid of him before he becomes a locker room dysfunction.

Washington didn't hurt anybody but themselves when they offered him $19.5m and he knew he would get $19.9m on the tag.
They compounded their problem coming back with a contract for 2017 around $23.9m when he knew he would $24.5m on the second tag.
He made $44m in those two years betting on himself when signing a contract would have paid $43.4m.
A third tag would have brought him a cool $34m. We can play this game all day long and he'll always come out better playing year to year on a tag.

I suppose there are a number of factors that lead to his decisions, but it didn't affect his play on the field.

And a fair comparison might not be possible at all since there will always be the "he had a better team," "he had more experience," "better coaching," or "better system," or whatever reason could be offered for the disparity.

Frankly, I wouldn't choose Cousins over Dak, but that's just my opinion.
You’re welcome to your opinion. But to take cousins over Prescott in my opinion is pure Ludacris
 

Whirlwin

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yep, ole gimp foot wouldn't have been starting without two guys getting injured.
pure luck just like being drafted with a great running back and good offensive line. Gimp wouldn't even be heard of if not for luck. Put him on a crap team and he would be gone by now. Gimp on.
And put them on a great team and he would’ve had a ring already. Come on
 

Whirlwin

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There’s one reason why Dak has turned out to be clearly the best QB of the class. Consistency.

Across his 4 years as a starter he’s never posted a QB rating below 85.0, & averaged 97.3 across this time. Unlike Goff/Wentzie who both own a ring, Dak gets better w/time & remains the franchise QB w/the same team. That's proof right there Superbowl rings don't go to great QB's.
Did Carson Wentz really deserve that ring
 

Captain-Crash

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And put them on a great team and he would’ve had a ring already. Come on
yep, he needs 52 other superstars on his team for him to have a ring, that way he doesn't suck it up and lose to every good defense. Those worm burner throws out to Zeke is a work of art. Not too many QB's can throw a worm burner like Dak.

And that loser Jimmy saying Dak can't carry a team, he doesn't know crap. I bet he's never won a super bowl.
 

Hadenough

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:huh: so what's early in their careers? first contract? as many mention that as a measure....so these guys won it later in their careers....
Peyton Manning
Ben Roth
Nick Foles
Joe Flacco
Eli Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Brees
of course brady, but you conveniently excluded him....all won it after 6 years in the league

compared to the young ones like
Wilson
Mahomes

and that's where it pretty much ends with young QBs winning superbowls....

so lets spin what you mean early in their careers...... I am sure its coming.
:huh: so what's early in their careers? first contract? as many mention that as a measure....so these guys won it later in their careers....
Peyton Manning
Ben Roth
Nick Foles
Joe Flacco
Eli Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Brees
of course brady, but you conveniently excluded him....all won it after 6 years in the league

compared to the young ones like
Wilson
Mahomes

and that's where it pretty much ends with young QBs winning superbowls....

so lets spin what you mean early in their careers...... I am sure its coming.
Ok let's include Brady. He won his first SB 2 years in.
First four years in the league would be
Eli, Rothlisberger, Flacco, Wilson, Mahomes.
Point is the guys that won SBs started winning early on and the few that won later
Dak doesn't have the arm or accuracy of those guys. Foles was an outlier but you want to include him go ahead.
 

Whirlwin

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yep, he needs 52 other superstars on his team for him to have a ring, that way he doesn't suck it up and lose to every good defense. Those worm burner throws out to Zeke is a work of art. Not too many QB's can throw a worm burner like Dak.

And that loser Jimmy saying Dak can't carry a team, he doesn't know crap. I bet he's never won a super bowl.
Who doesn’t. Mahomes sucked he was shut out Last year’s Super Bowl
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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Ok let's include Brady. He won his first SB 2 years in.
First four years in the league would be
Eli, Rothlisberger, Flacco, Wilson, Mahomes.
Point is the guys that won SBs started winning early on and the few that won later
Dak doesn't have the arm or accuracy of those guys. Foles was an outlier but you want to include him go ahead.
some of these guys won early. a lot of guys won later in their career. so should we ignore brady winning his last 4? Eli won it year 4, but also later in his career. superbowl winning teams usually put a winning formula together, it doesn't happen over night (except maybe the Rams once), but they start to put together a series of winning seasons, some ups and downs and then make play off runs. rarely do they win it their first run in playoffs..

sorry, I see a mixed bag. you said it yourself. but trying to say "hey ignore all the ones that won it later, and lets just focus on the guys that won it early"....

its about finding the right formula......the coach, scheme that fits, right offense, right defense and making a run and yes just a little bit of luck here and there....even for the young guys, wilson...the formula is changed. defense is not there. running game is not as good. OL is not as good...so he is not winning anything or advancing in playoffs......

and all the stats on Dak say he is accurate, he has strong arm, he has the leadership. but is it the right culture, right mix of talent, right scheme, right coach, etc..... would any of the guys in the list win a superbowl with Garrett and Linehan and Marinelli? if yes which ones?

I whole heartedly disagree.
 

RonnieT24

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True. I would be surprised if he goes bust in Indy. I think there's a good chance he'll play well for that team.

The demons in our own heads are the most difficult to defeat. Wentz has a chance to return to form but there is also a chance that that last year in Philly ruined him for good. He couldn't keep his eyes off the pass rush. He hung onto the ball way too long and he was scared to pull the trigger far too often. He's got an uphill battle to slay them internal dragons. Hopeful reuniting with Reich will fix him. If it doesn't, he will become a career backup.
 

Reverend Conehead

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The demons in our own heads are the most difficult to defeat. Wentz has a chance to return to form but there is also a chance that that last year in Philly ruined him for good. He couldn't keep his eyes off the pass rush. He hung onto the ball way too long and he was scared to pull the trigger far too often. He's got an uphill battle to slay them internal dragons. Hopeful reuniting with Reich will fix him. If it doesn't, he will become a career backup.

Interesting. Do you think something similar happened to RG3, or do you think his case was more physical? After his rookie year, I thought the dude was going to be an elite QB for at least a decade, but he turned into a journeyman/decent backup. I thought Washington had found their guy who was going to be a thorn in our side for a long time.
 

RonnieT24

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Interesting. Do you think something similar happened to RG3, or do you think his case was more physical? After his rookie year, I thought the dude was going to be an elite QB for at least a decade, but he turned into a journeyman/decent backup. I thought Washington had found their guy who was going to be a thorn in our side for a long time.

You're not the only one who was scared to death of that guy. Because unlike a lot of running type QBs who come into the league RG3 could also throw the ball extremely well. I do think his issues were also mental though not for the same reasons Wentz did. RG3 got caught up in RG3 the brand.. His dad started trying to dictate things with the Commanders and started feuding with Shanahan about how "Robert is being used." RG3 should have been a great dual threat QB like Steve Young, Randall Cunningham or Michael Vick for at least a decade but he decided that he didn't want to play the offense that Shanahan had tailored to his skillset and instead wanted to become a "true pocket passer." Problem was, he was not ready to become a pocket passer. He didn't see the field well enough yet nor get through his reads fast enough so in order to have a chance to be successful he needed to be an on the move passer to simplify his reads and give him a chance to threaten the defense with his athleticism. So you have a young QB who didn't know what the hell he was doing wanting to stand in the pocket and pretend he was Tom Brady .. which is what led to his getting clobbered so often. He needed a good 2-3 years more in the training wheels offense Shanahan had built around him but he and his dad forced Shanny out of town and in walks Jay Gruden who pretty much hung him out to dry. He never recovered from the beating both his body and his ego took that last year with Gruden. The knee injuries took away his athleticism and his own head case nature cost him the chance to master the mental side of the game well enough to really do anything but become a journeyman backup. It's actually kinda sad.. but since he was a Ratscum.. I'm glad it happened .. LOL!
 

quickccc

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You're not the only one who was scared to death of that guy. Because unlike a lot of running type QBs who come into the league RG3 could also throw the ball extremely well. I do think his issues were also mental though not for the same reasons Wentz did.

RG3 got caught up in RG3 the brand.. His dad started trying to dictate things with the Commanders and started feuding with Shanahan about how "Robert is being used." RG3 should have been a great dual threat QB like Steve Young, Randall Cunningham or Michael Vick for at least a decade but he decided that he didn't want to play the offense that Shanahan had tailored to his skillset and instead wanted to become a "true pocket passer."

Problem was, he was not ready to become a pocket passer. He didn't see the field well enough yet nor get through his reads fast enough so in order to have a chance to be successful he needed to be an on the move passer to simplify his reads and give him a chance to threaten the defense with his athleticism.

So you have a young QB who didn't know what the hell he was doing wanting to stand in the pocket and pretend he was Tom Brady .. which is what led to his getting clobbered so often. He needed a good 2-3 years more in the training wheels offense Shanahan had built around him but he and his dad forced Shanny out of town and in walks Jay Gruden who pretty much hung him out to dry. He never recovered from the beating both his body and his ego took that last year with Gruden.

The knee injuries took away his athleticism and his own head case nature cost him the chance to master the mental side of the game well enough to really do anything but become a journeyman backup. It's actually kinda sad.. but since he was a Ratscum.. I'm glad it happened .. LOL!

What I took from RG3 and his game is the same as what’s happened to Lamar Jackson and Cam Newton, absolute dynamic athletic QBs who killed teams in their earlier years with their dangerous
running skills, but when the rest of the NFL finally caught up to how to stop them, and then at what happened to RG3 and Newton the injuries came on as well.
And combine all of the inaccuracy, slumping, lost confidence and ineffectiveness,

- Steve Young had great run skills, but he also was an very efficient pure passer
– even in the pocket.

- Mike Vick - even admitted that he didn't really study for the QB game, and allowed his
4.3 speed to bail him out, as also a result, he really couldn't involve his WRs into the game.

- i also believe the Ravens will be limited so long as Lamar Jackson is more runner and limited passer. His pass game doesn't take advantage or involve his receivers enough in the game.

- Cunningham when deemed up with a Moss, Cris Carter and Jake Reed, even won NFL MVP with Vikes, but he's always had major self -confident issues with his passing game
if he hit a slump, especially come playoff time.
At the tail of his career, despite still having all of physical tools, Randall was dead set on being content as a backup (even as a Cowboy once).. vs trying to seek out another starting opportunity.

- Shanahan gimmicked Robert Griffin 3 game, but he never developed a knack feel for the passing game or the pocket. He wasn't a big study of the game, and one of those that relied so highly on their fantastic athleticism to bail them out repeatedly, and yes, RG3 was also a head case, and around the teams and teammates he's been with, even during college, he wasn't seen as much of a leader as well. That spells so big among teammates and coaches, and entire organizations.
o_O
 

RonnieT24

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What I took from RG3 and his game is the same as what’s happened to Lamar Jackson and Cam Newton, absolute dynamic athletic QBs who killed teams in their earlier years with their dangerous
running skills, but when the rest of the NFL finally caught up to how to stop them, and then at what happened to RG3 and Newton the injuries came on as well.
And combine all of the inaccuracy, slumping, lost confidence and ineffectiveness,

Griffin got hurt as a rookie and tried to tough guy his way through it. Remember he tore his ACL in like week 14-15 his rookie season but played on it through the end of the season and started the playoff game with it. Many forget that the Ratscums were leading the Seahawks 14-0 when his knee started acting up on him again. Shanahan should have pulled him BEFORE it finally gave out completely and put in Cousins..

- Steve Young had great run skills, but he also was an very efficient pure passer
– even in the pocket.

Steve Young would be the first to tell you he was a horrible passer when he entered the league. It took him several years in the 49ers system to become a proficient passer. He was terrible in Tampa and the first couple of years after he was traded he was pretty much a one read then take off QB. He used to have a weekly radio show on Bay Area radio in the early 90's and he talked about how bad he was at throwing the ball when he first came over all the time.

- Mike Vick - even admitted that he didn't really study for the QB game, and allowed his
4.3 speed to bail him out, as also a result, he really couldn't involve his WRs into the game.

- i also believe the Ravens will be limited so long as Lamar Jackson is more runner and limited passer. His pass game doesn't take advantage or involve his receivers enough in the game.

There are a lot of similarities between Vick and Jackson.. but hopefully Jackson will learn what it took Vick too long to learn.. which is that there is nothing wrong with throwing the ball away to avoid a sack AND to avoid taking a beating. But let's face it if a guy is any kind of competitor when he sees 10 yards of open field in front of him and a 300 pound guy chasing him the math is almost always going to say outrun the fat guy and go get the 10 yards.. What it doesn't take into account are the 4 guys who will crunch you at the end of that run. Jackson throws the ball just fine but his movement skills cost him mechanics a lot of the time. Bad mechanics = bad throws. He has to make the mental turn from superior athlete to superior passer (who also happens to be a superior athlete.) If he does.. the league is going to be in big trouble.

- Cunningham when deemed up with a Moss, Cris Carter and Jake Reed, even won NFL MVP with Vikes, but he's always had major self -confident issues with his passing game
if he hit a slump, especially come playoff time.
At the tail of his career, despite still having all of physical tools, Randall was dead set on being content as a backup (even as a Cowboy once).. vs trying to seek out another starting opportunity.

- Shanahan gimmicked Robert Griffin 3 game, but he never developed a knack feel for the passing game or the pocket. He wasn't a big study of the game, and one of those that relied so highly on their fantastic athleticism to bail them out repeatedly, and yes, RG3 was also a head case, and around the teams and teammates he's been with, even during college, he wasn't seen as much of a leader as well. That spells so big among teammates and coaches, and entire organizations.
o_O

RG3's issue was that he wanted to just "become" a pocket passer because he didn't like the criticism that he was a gimmick player. Problem was that isn't something that happens overnight just cause you say you wanna do it. He needed to put in the work for 2-3 years to make that transition. And he and his dad balked when Shanahan told them that and went to Snyder with their grievances. I think that Barbie Doll he married even got into the act for a while. He became a circus so Gruden couldn't wait to be rid of him.
 
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