We are raising a generation of deluded narcissists

[JBond]

Let me ask you guys who are so delusional here something that might clear things up?

Education was brought up for example. What states have the best education in the country? It certainly isn't the liberal PC states right?

Lets break it down further by cities. Chicago, NYC, Detroit, LA, St Louis. Not exactly conservative bastions.

Not sure what your point is.

 

[JBond]

There are too many angles this sort of discussion can ricochet off in to and just degrade into a situation where people get offended and it just ends up in argument.

It becomes a generational blame fest and personal aspects of the problem are focused on and argued against.

Anyone can blame movie's, music, video games, parents singuarly and each aspect comes with a compelling counter argument.

If someone blames the prior generation, they're correct. Up to a point. If someone blames entertainment, they're correct. Up to a point. If someone blames education they're correct, up to a point. The point is all of these things are not working independently, all together they form to distract, divide and eventually conquer.

An honest evaluation will see everyone will be offended, with no exceptions. Me, you, our parents, etc. But part of this generations problem is it's reluctance to accept being offended.

No one can argue against where we sit as a nation: highly divided, losing influence, losing money, losing the original purpose of education and losing our peace. That's not the condition of an ascending civilization.

:bravo: Great post!

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The difference is that you've come to a conclusion that civilization is on a downward path, and you presume why it is.

This is illogical.

Imagine the following scenario:

The water level in room B is lower than the water is Room A.

Without facts and data you've decided that there is less water in room B, and that the inhabitants of Room B have been removing the water, since it's lower.

In reality Room B is a larger room than Room A, and while the level appears lower the quantity of water might actually be greater.

Your preconceptions about the inhabitants of Room B were baseless, and your conclusions about the water levels were merely perceptions and not reality.

The conclusion I would come to after having read this is that you clearly believe the posters who hold the opinion opposite of yours are all simpletons. I don't know how anybody could read the room a/room b water test and not come to the conclusion that the rooms might not be the same size.

Talk about preconceptions.

Really?

 

[DFWJC]

There are too many angles this sort of discussion can ricochet off in to and just degrade into a situation where people get offended and it just ends up in argument.

It becomes a generational blame fest and personal aspects of the problem are focused on and argued against.

Anyone can blame movie's, music, video games, parents singuarly and each aspect comes with a compelling counter argument.

If someone blames the prior generation, they're correct. Up to a point. If someone blames entertainment, they're correct. Up to a point. If someone blames education they're correct, up to a point. The point is all of these things are not working independently, all together they form to distract, divide and eventually conquer.

An honest evaluation will see everyone offended, with no exceptions. Me, you, our parents, etc. But part of this generations problem is it's reluctance to accept being offended.

No one can argue against where we sit as a nation: highly divided, losing influence, losing money, losing the original purpose of education and losing our peace. That's not the condition of an ascending civilization.

Very well put!

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I do believe that our Generation is more then just a little responsible for the future Generation. I am of the opinion that the easier you make it for children, the easier they will take it. We, as a country, have been pretty successful on the whole. As a result, we have made it as easy as possible for our children. We have done more for them, in many cases, then were done for us or for our fathers. That's the cycle. You always want better for your kids but better doesn't necessarily translate into more. That's the part that I think we fail on. We give them more and more, sometimes without even stopping to consider if they actually need more.

The result is what we are seeing today.

 

[Galian Beast]

You know that you are opening a can of political worms. Why go there?

I thought that worm was already opened. The idea is that a PC culture is what is devolving our society. I'm asking where the evidence of that is.

Lets break it down further by cities. Chicago, NYC, Detroit, LA, St Louis. Not exactly conservative bastions.

Not sure what your point is.

Break it down, and do an apples to apples comparison. If you want to compare specific cities that is certainly a smaller sample, but you can certainly do so. Just don't forget to compare the cities in areas that overall have lower quality education.

My point is if you look at a top 10 list of the highest educated states, you'll find that they are liberal states. So then my question is, if a pc agenda which I'm assuming is a liberal one is creating the downfall of education, how are these states the highest in the nation?

The conclusion I would come to after having read this is that you clearly believe the posters who hold the opinion opposite of yours are all simpletons. I don't know how anybody could read the room a/room b water test and not come to the conclusion that the rooms might not be the same size.

Talk about preconceptions.

Really?

You missed the point entirely. The point of the room a/room b water test is that without all the information available, coming to a conclusion based on preconception is illogical and usually inaccurate.

Let's say that a countries education system is falling by the way side. Is it worse than it was in a previous generation or does it rank lower on a global perspective? What's causing this decrease, and how can you prove it?

The people in this topic have simply used their confirmation bias and preconceptions to come to their own conclusion regardless of facts.

There has been zero objectivity here.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I thought that worm was already opened. The idea is that a PC culture is what is devolving our society. I'm asking where the evidence of that is.



Break it down, and do an apples to apples comparison. If you want to compare specific cities that is certainly a smaller sample, but you can certainly do so. Just don't forget to compare the cities in areas that overall have lower quality education.

My point is if you look at a top 10 list of the highest educated states, you'll find that they are liberal states. So then my question is, if a pc agenda which I'm assuming is a liberal one is creating the downfall of education, how are these states the highest in the nation?



You missed the point entirely. The point of the room a/room b water test is that without all the information available, coming to a conclusion based on preconception is illogical and usually inaccurate.

Let's say that a countries education system is falling by the way side. Is it worse than it was in a previous generation or does it rank lower on a global perspective? What's causing this decrease, and how can you prove it?

The people in this topic have simply used their confirmation bias and preconceptions to come to their own conclusion regardless of facts.

There has been zero objectivity here.

No Galian, I don't think I did.

 

[Galian Beast]

No Galian, I don't think I did.

Great rebuttal...

 

[vta]

I thought that worm was already opened. The idea is that a PC culture is what is devolving our society. I'm asking where the evidence of that is.



Break it down, and do an apples to apples comparison. If you want to compare specific cities that is certainly a smaller sample, but you can certainly do so. Just don't forget to compare the cities in areas that overall have lower quality education.

My point is if you look at a top 10 list of the highest educated states, you'll find that they are liberal states. So then my question is, if a pc agenda which I'm assuming is a liberal one is creating the downfall of education, how are these states the highest in the nation?



You missed the point entirely. The point of the room a/room b water test is that without all the information available, coming to a conclusion based on preconception is illogical and usually inaccurate.

Let's say that a countries education system is falling by the way side. Is it worse than it was in a previous generation or does it rank lower on a global perspective? What's causing this decrease, and how can you prove it?

The people in this topic have simply used their confirmation bias and preconceptions to come to their own conclusion regardless of facts.

There has been zero objectivity here.

It's neither partisan nor biased. You haven't stated any facts; you've offered a weak allegory and bland accusations.

Exactly what information is missing? Is it subjective to say our economy is falling? Is it subjective to say our education standings are falling? The higher ranked school systems in our country only look high against the lower overall standard, that's not a reasonable scale of measurement.

You prove it by it's product. Even if you don't want to adhere to the numerous studies that are accompanied by even more op-ed pieces on how to fix it, you prove it by the product it produces. Are we in a better financial state than previous generations? Are we growing industrially? Is there a trend towards unanimity socially? How's employment doing? No one can answer these questions in a positive manner. That's not subjective that's fact.
.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Great rebuttal...

You see, this is the problem. I am not in a debate, nor am I in an argument. You are looking for a rebuttal. I am informing you that your initial premise is wrong.

I am not surprised that the concept escapes you.

 

[Baileyneverfailey]

As a 29 year old man who is about to have his first child later this year, I can tell you my son or daughter will not be taught that the only thing that matters is trying your best, or that they're deserving of rewards without hard work. They won't be taught that they can achieve anything they want. They'll be taught they should work as hard as they can to achieve their goals, with the understanding that they're not entitled to anything, and things may or may not work out like they want.

Many of the younger generations(not all) believe that they're just the smartest person in the room at all times, and if they graduate college and can't find a job yet it's just because the economy sucks or somebody is out to get them.

Reality is harsh, but the truth is, nobody who was determined to work their *** off to get what they want was ever homeless.

 

[Signals]

Entitlement is a major problem.

Work ethic is lacking.

Manners are lacking, compassion, respect, humility are all lacking.

You forgot ethics in general and morality.

 

[Galian Beast]

It's neither partisan nor biased. You haven't stated any facts; you've offered a weak allegory and bland accusations.

Exactly what information is missing? Is it subjective to say our economy is falling? Is it subjective to say our education standings are falling? The higher ranked school systems in our country only look high against the lower overall standard, that's not a reasonable scale of measurement.

You prove it by it's product. Even if you don't want to adhere to the numerous studies that are accompanied by even more op-ed pieces on how to fix it, you prove it by the product it produces. Are we in a better financial state than previous generations? Are we growing industrially? Is there a trend towards unanimity socially? How's employment doing? No one can answer these questions in a positive manner. That's not subjective that's fact.
.

If you notice I haven't made any conclusion as to what the problem is. That is the difference between me and the very people who are judging others here.

It is somewhat subjective to say our education is failing, because as I said, first you need to create a parameter to judge the level of education. You suggest that the higher ranked schools are just higher ranked compared to the low overall standard, yet you provide no evidence of this.

Are we in a better financial state than other generations, than most, certainly, than the previous generation? No. Now that we've established that, rather than assume your conclusion is accurate, you'd do well to prove it.

Does any of that have to do with the rise of globalization, the effects of a global economy on the us economy? The rising cost of higher education? There are numerous factors that have been completely ignored for this preconception of a weaker generation that has been coddled.

You see, this is the problem. I am not in a debate, nor am I in an argument. You are looking for a rebuttal. I am informing you that your initial premise is wrong.

I am not surprised that the concept escapes you.

When you inform someone of something, normally you back up what you say... Yet I'm not surprised that you don't understand that concept...

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

If you notice I haven't made any conclusion as to what the problem is. That is the difference between me and the very people who are judging others here.

It is somewhat subjective to say our education is failing, because as I said, first you need to create a parameter to judge the level of education. You suggest that the higher ranked schools are just higher ranked compared to the low overall standard, yet you provide no evidence of this.

Are we in a better financial state than other generations, than most, certainly, than the previous generation? No. Now that we've established that, rather than assume your conclusion is accurate, you'd do well to prove it.

Does any of that have to do with the rise of globalization, the effects of a global economy on the us economy? The rising cost of higher education? There are numerous factors that have been completely ignored for this preconception of a weaker generation that has been coddled.




When you inform someone of something, normally you back up what you say... Yet I'm not surprised that you don't understand that concept...

Is this the part where I'm supposed to say, "Nice Rebuttle"?

I have faith that you understand completely what I am trying to tell you. I don't believe that any more "Back Up", as you so aptly put it , is necessary.

If that is not the case, then I guess I will wish you good luck in defending your position. Clearly, you don't see the folly in the way you are attacking this issue. That's fine. Good luck.

 

[Galian Beast]

Is this the part where I'm supposed to say, "Nice Rebuttle"?

I have faith that you understand completely what I am trying to tell you. I don't believe that any more "Back Up", as you so aptly put it , is necessary.

If that is not the case, then I guess I will wish you good luck in defending your position. Clearly, you don't see the folly in the way you are attacking this issue. That's fine. Good luck.

That's the thing you aren't getting... I never took a position. I was simply here to say that you're all being extremely presumptuous and haven't backed up any of your hypothesis with any facts. It's rather silly actually.

 

[vta]

If you notice I haven't made any conclusion as to what the problem is. That is the difference between me and the very people who are judging others here.

It is somewhat subjective to say our education is failing, because as I said, first you need to create a parameter to judge the level of education. You suggest that the higher ranked schools are just higher ranked compared to the low overall standard, yet you provide no evidence of this.

Are we in a better financial state than other generations, than most, certainly, than the previous generation? No. Now that we've established that, rather than assume your conclusion is accurate, you'd do well to prove it.

Does any of that have to do with the rise of globalization, the effects of a global economy on the us economy? The rising cost of higher education? There are numerous factors that have been completely ignored for this preconception of a weaker generation that has been coddled.
..

No I don't have to create a parameter, because it's not subjective. Me creating a parameter would be biased.The objective scale of measurement is by historic performance and global standings. There are numerous reports that you can find citing how SAT scores are the lowest they've been in decades. and the U.S. sits about 17 amongst 36 of industrialized nations.

You say I should prove our economy is falling then offer a reason as to why it is, by citing globalization? Hehehe.

You can loook at the by product of high unemployment; our import/export over under, corruption. I'd find it hard to believe the economic downturn of the last 5-7 years has been lost on you.

All this aside, above I'd said people want to grab a segment and argue it, ignoring the entire picture. I'm not going to parse the issue into little segments, because on their own they're not so damaging. You can't argue in segments and make a complete picture.

You haven't offered a conclusion but you have on numerous occasions claimed certain facts are being ignored. I asked point blank twice what's missing. Maybe you should unveil the mystery and simply answer. You can't refute an assertion by pretending I'm missing something. What's missing?

It's not judgemental to point out when something is faltering, it's good sense.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

That's the thing you aren't getting... I never took a position. I was simply here to say that you're all being extremely presumptuous and haven't backed up any of your hypothesis with any facts. It's rather silly actually.

I told you before, I get it. However, your opening post does not lend itself to your stated position and, IMO, it only served to alienate many of the posters who don't agree with you. The ability to have good productive discussion went out the window when you said opions were baseless. In fact, many of the posters who posted in that thread have children. They have up front experience in the subject matter. I do not know if you have children Galian or how old they might be if you do. However, I do know that your example was pretty insulting. In fact, here is what you said:

Imagine the following scenario:

The water level in room B is lower than the water is Room A.

Without facts and data you've decided that there is less water in room B, and that the inhabitants of Room B have been removing the water, since it's lower.

In reality Room B is a larger room than Room A, and while the level appears lower the quantity of water might actually be greater.

You suggest here that none of the posters are posting from a stand point of factual experience or any real supporting Data. That's insulting and it's not factual. What they have may not agree with you but that doesn't mean it's not factual.

You go on to suggest, metaphorically, that the posters were baseless in their arguments and that they were merely basing their statement on faulty perceptions rather then reality.

I mean, can you not see that this is insulting?

You accuse posters of not bring facts yet when you refer to Dunning-Kruger and it is pointed out that Dunning-Kruger theory can be applied to all age groups, you do what? You don't acknowledge that fact. Instead accuse the posters who don't agree with you of presenting no fact.

That's not how you have a good intellectual discussion. You are not the only one, please don't misunderstand.

The fact of the matter is that when I read what you posted, the first thing that came to mind was not that you were trying to have a meaningful discussion. It was, "How stupid does this person think we are?"

That's the truth.

 

[jnday]

I told you before, I get it. However, your opening post does not lend itself to your stated position and, IMO, it only served to alienate many of the posters who don't agree with you. The ability to have good productive discussion went out the window when you said opions were baseless. In fact, many of the posters who posted in that thread have children. They have up front experience in the subject matter. I do not know if you have children Galian or how old they might be if you do. However, I do know that your example was pretty insulting. In fact, here is what you said:

Imagine the following scenario:

The water level in room B is lower than the water is Room A.

Without facts and data you've decided that there is less water in room B, and that the inhabitants of Room B have been removing the water, since it's lower.

In reality Room B is a larger room than Room A, and while the level appears lower the quantity of water might actually be greater.

You suggest here that none of the posters are posting from a stand point of factual experience or any real supporting Data. That's insulting and it's not factual. What they have may not agree with you but that doesn't mean it's not factual.

You go on to suggest, metaphorically, that the posters were baseless in their arguments and that they were merely basing their statement on faulty perceptions rather then reality.

I mean, can you not see that this is insulting?

You accuse posters of not bring facts yet when you refer to Dunning-Kruger and it is pointed out that Dunning-Kruger theory can be applied to all age groups, you do what? You don't acknowledge that fact. Instead accuse the posters who don't agree with you of presenting no fact.

That's not how you have a good intellectual discussion. You are not the only one, please don't misunderstand.

The fact of the matter is that when I read what you posted, the first thing that came to mind was not that you were trying to have a meaningful discussion. It was, "How stupid does this person think we are?"

That's the truth.

Very well done sir.

 

[Galian Beast]

No I don't have to create a parameter, because it's not subjective. Me creating a parameter would be biased.The objective scale of measurement is by historic performance and global standings. There are numerous reports that you can find citing how SAT scores are the lowest they've been in decades. and the U.S. sits about 17 amongst 36 of industrialized nations.

You say I should prove our economy is falling then offer a reason as to why it is, by citing globalization? Hehehe.

You can loook at the by product of high unemployment; our import/export over under, corruption. I'd find it hard to believe the economic downturn of the last 5-7 years has been lost on you.

All this aside, above I'd said people want to grab a segment and argue it, ignoring the entire picture. I'm not going to parse the issue into little segments, because on their own they're not so damaging. You can't argue in segments and make a complete picture.

You haven't offered a conclusion but you have on numerous occasions claimed certain facts are being ignored. I asked point blank twice what's missing. Maybe you should unveil the mystery and simply answer. You can't refute an assertion by pretending I'm missing something. What's missing?

It's not judgemental to point out when something is faltering, it's good sense.

You're not really paying attention. Take global standings for instance. Let me give you another scenario:

Imagine you can run the 100 meter dash in 10 seconds. And you're the fastest person in your school. Thus you are ranked #1. If 3 kids switch to your school, and they can run the 100 meter dash in 9 seconds, and all of a sudden you're ranked #4 have you done something to become slower?

Not to mention that the SATS aren't taking globally, so it's clearly not a global indicator.

As for SAT scores being down, rather than assuming your conclusion is correct without providing evidence to back it up, you could investigate the cause of lower scores that has data backing it up.

I haven't come to a conclusion myself, because doing so would be presumptuous.

 

[Galian Beast]

I told you before, I get it. However, your opening post does not lend itself to your stated position and, IMO, it only served to alienate many of the posters who don't agree with you. The ability to have good productive discussion went out the window when you said opions were baseless. In fact, many of the posters who posted in that thread have children. They have up front experience in the subject matter. I do not know if you have children Galian or how old they might be if you do. However, I do know that your example was pretty insulting. In fact, here is what you said:

Imagine the following scenario:

The water level in room B is lower than the water is Room A.

Without facts and data you've decided that there is less water in room B, and that the inhabitants of Room B have been removing the water, since it's lower.

In reality Room B is a larger room than Room A, and while the level appears lower the quantity of water might actually be greater.

You suggest here that none of the posters are posting from a stand point of factual experience or any real supporting Data. That's insulting and it's not factual. What they have may not agree with you but that doesn't mean it's not factual.

You go on to suggest, metaphorically, that the posters were baseless in their arguments and that they were merely basing their statement on faulty perceptions rather then reality.

I mean, can you not see that this is insulting?

You accuse posters of not bring facts yet when you refer to Dunning-Kruger and it is pointed out that Dunning-Kruger theory can be applied to all age groups, you do what? You don't acknowledge that fact. Instead accuse the posters who don't agree with you of presenting no fact.

That's not how you have a good intellectual discussion. You are not the only one, please don't misunderstand.

The fact of the matter is that when I read what you posted, the first thing that came to mind was not that you were trying to have a meaningful discussion. It was, "How stupid does this person think we are?"

That's the truth.

Tell me the difference between an anecdote and data. Does having children make you the authority on the position of our current society compared to generations before it?

I'm the one who stated Dunning Kruger isn't necessarily generational. Go back and read my original post. It seems you've confused yourself.

When you make a statement, you back it up with facts. If you don't, it's baseless. It becomes opinion. What good is an opinion that isn't cultivated by facts. And if it is cultivated by facts, please by all means present them.

What has happened is you've created a logical fallacy.

A happened and B happened so A must have caused B. That isn't logically sound.