We shoulda taken Flowers in the third round

dallasdave

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I love how people complain how the media is crappy, lazy, never watch tape, etc... and then live and die by their prospect ratings lol

But in Kiper God trust

I think Kiper is a good judge of talent, and of course he misses, everyone does. But I think he was dead on when he said Green was a reach. I remember a few years ago when Kiper said who is Matt Johnson ? Why did the Cowboys take him in the 4th round.... He was right about that one. Don't get me wrong I think the Cowboys have done good in recent drafts, but everyone misses now and then and some people on this board go ape-crap if you don't say every pick was the best pick.
 

speedkilz88

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I think Kiper is a good judge of talent, and of course he misses, everyone does. But I think he was dead on when he said Green was a reach. I remember a few years ago when Kiper said who is Matt Johnson ? Why did the Cowboys take him in the 4th round.... He was right about that one. Don't get me wrong I think the Cowboys have done good in recent drafts, but everyone misses now and then and some people on this board go ape-crap if you don't say every pick was the best pick.

Kiper predicted Matt Johnson's injuries?
 

dallasdave

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Kiper predicted Matt Johnson's injuries?
No, he just said who is Matt Johnson and started looking through his notes, because he was such a reach. Everyone at ESPN draft table were wondering who he was and why the Cowboys took him in the 4th round.
 

speedkilz88

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No, he just said who is Matt Johnson and started looking through his notes, because he was such a reach. Everyone at ESPN draft table were wondering who he was and why the Cowboys took him in the 4th round.

That is because Kiper isn't a scout. You might check out the 4th round of the draft some time. They rarely make it.
 

Silver Surfer

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With Gardner coming back and the Obada signing, Marinelli probably told Jerry: http://i636.***BLOCKED***/albums/uu87/jdjohnston1960/please-don-t-pick-flowers-sign-urges-people-cleveland-s-metroparks-to-not-lovely-51070109.jpg :D
 

speedkilz88

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Matt Johnson was a HUGE reach and people questioning that should stop pretending to know anything about football and the draft

It will be tough to find any reputable draft expert who gave Matt Johnson a draftable grade

You first.
 

xwalker

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I think Kiper is a good judge of talent, and of course he misses, everyone does. But I think he was dead on when he said Green was a reach. I remember a few years ago when Kiper said who is Matt Johnson ? Why did the Cowboys take him in the 4th round.... He was right about that one. Don't get me wrong I think the Cowboys have done good in recent drafts, but everyone misses now and then and some people on this board go ape-crap if you don't say every pick was the best pick.

Matt Johnson was a HUGE reach and people questioning that should stop pretending to know anything about football and the draft

It will be tough to find any reputable draft expert who gave Matt Johnson a draftable grade

Matt Johnson did not fail because of a lack of talent. Injuries ruined his career. The Cowboys coaches loved him. He was going to start as a rookie if he had stayed healthy.

People said Hitchens was a reach and that proved to be false. People said Fred was a reach and that proved to be false in a big way.

Kiper's primary focus is on the first round. If you look at Kiper's rankings at the end of the college season and compare them to his ranking right before the draft, it seems obvious that he is not really basing his ranking on his own film study. He has connections to NFL teams and he get's feedback each time he releases a new mock draft. If somebody really based their rankings on intense film study, then only players with character/medical issues should see their ranking vary radically from the end of the college season to the day before the draft.

Ranking all the the players eligible for the draft is a really difficult task and I don't really expect a guy like Kiper to spend all year watching film when the 1st round gets the vast majority of the attention from fans.

I would be concerned if the Cowboys or any NFL team's draft board's exactly matched the draft media rankings. I tend to think that the teams that really dig deep researching prospects, will inevitably find some players that the draft media does not have ranked highly. It is impossible for a media guy to dig as deep and review as much film as an NFL team.

This concept that the draft media rankings are absolutely correct is just silly. We see every year that their rankings don't match what actually happens. There will be players they have ranked highly that fall a long way and those are easy to see and prove. It is the players that get pick earlier than the media rankings that can't really be proven because nobody really know how other teams had those players ranked; however, basic logic would dictate that if the draft media rankings are wrong in one direction, the direction that can be proven, then they are probably also wrong in the other direction, the direction that can't be proven.
 

dallasdave

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Matt Johnson did not fail because of a lack of talent. Injuries ruined his career. The Cowboys coaches loved him. He was going to start as a rookie if he had stayed healthy.

People said Hitchens was a reach and that proved to be false. People said Fred was a reach and that proved to be false in a big way.

Kiper's primary focus is on the first round. If you look at Kiper's rankings at the end of the college season and compare them to his ranking right before the draft, it seems obvious that he is not really basing his ranking on his own film study. He has connections to NFL teams and he get's feedback each time he releases a new mock draft. If somebody really based their rankings on intense film study, then only players with character/medical issues should see their ranking vary radically from the end of the college season to the day before the draft.

Ranking all the the players eligible for the draft is a really difficult task and I don't really expect a guy like Kiper to spend all year watching film when the 1st round gets the vast majority of the attention from fans.

I would be concerned if the Cowboys or any NFL team's draft board's exactly matched the draft media rankings. I tend to think that the teams that really dig deep researching prospects, will inevitably find some players that the draft media does not have ranked highly. It is impossible for a media guy to dig as deep and review as much film as an NFL team.

This concept that the draft media rankings are absolutely correct is just silly. We see every year that their rankings don't match what actually happens. There will be players they have ranked highly that fall a long way and those are easy to see and prove. It is the players that get pick earlier than the media rankings that can't really be proven because nobody really know how other teams had those players ranked; however, basic logic would dictate that if the draft media rankings are wrong in one direction, the direction that can be proven, then they are probably also wrong in the other direction, the direction that can't be proven.

You could be right.
 

xwalker

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You could be right.

If people want to point to a failed 4th round pick, it should be somebody like AOA, not Matt Johnson. The AOA pick was back in the Wade Phillips years when the Cowboys drafting was a mess but their picks were actually much closer to the draft media rankings than they have been the past few years since Garrett and McClay have had more influence. AOA was actually a bargain according to the draft media, but the coaches knew there were big problems the 1st time he stepped onto the practice field. Matt Johnson on the other hand was loved by the coaches from the beginning.

Summary: The Cowboys drafting has been the best during the time frame when their picks least matched the draft media rankings.
 

dallasdave

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If people want to point to a failed 4th round pick, it should be somebody like AOA, not Matt Johnson. The AOA pick was back in the Wade Phillips years when the Cowboys drafting was a mess but their picks were actually much closer to the draft media rankings than they have been the past few years since Garrett and McClay have had more influence. AOA was actually a bargain according to the draft media, but the coaches knew there were big problems the 1st time he stepped onto the practice field. Matt Johnson on the other hand was loved by the coaches from the beginning.

Summary: The Cowboys drafting has been the best during the time frame when their picks least matched the draft media rankings.

every team misses
 

Idgit

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Matt Johnson did not fail because of a lack of talent. Injuries ruined his career. The Cowboys coaches loved him. He was going to start as a rookie if he had stayed healthy.

People said Hitchens was a reach and that proved to be false. People said Fred was a reach and that proved to be false in a big way.

Kiper's primary focus is on the first round. If you look at Kiper's rankings at the end of the college season and compare them to his ranking right before the draft, it seems obvious that he is not really basing his ranking on his own film study. He has connections to NFL teams and he get's feedback each time he releases a new mock draft. If somebody really based their rankings on intense film study, then only players with character/medical issues should see their ranking vary radically from the end of the college season to the day before the draft.

Ranking all the the players eligible for the draft is a really difficult task and I don't really expect a guy like Kiper to spend all year watching film when the 1st round gets the vast majority of the attention from fans.

I would be concerned if the Cowboys or any NFL team's draft board's exactly matched the draft media rankings. I tend to think that the teams that really dig deep researching prospects, will inevitably find some players that the draft media does not have ranked highly. It is impossible for a media guy to dig as deep and review as much film as an NFL team.

This concept that the draft media rankings are absolutely correct is just silly. We see every year that their rankings don't match what actually happens. There will be players they have ranked highly that fall a long way and those are easy to see and prove. It is the players that get pick earlier than the media rankings that can't really be proven because nobody really know how other teams had those players ranked; however, basic logic would dictate that if the draft media rankings are wrong in one direction, the direction that can be proven, then they are probably also wrong in the other direction, the direction that can't be proven.

The team spends a lot of time and money grading players across the board and as specific fits for their system. Once that work's done, the smart thing to do is to trust that work and to assume other teams are going to have a similar process. This should be done 100% without any regard whatsoever for what Mel Kiper or Mike Mayock may think. If you think the guy is in that group of 3rd rounders who can work as a swing OT for you, then you consider him in the 3rd because you assume another team with a similar defense will have graded him the same way. Then you make your picks and get the best combination of picks and value you can swing. If it turns out that a guy you had a second round grade on and got in the third had a 5th round grade from a talking hairpiece who is famous for not taking bathroom breaks during the draft, well, um....so what?

On Matt Johnson, because that poor dude gets batted around like a beachball in every CZ draft discussion...did anybody once hear a coach say anything bad about him as a teammate or in the meeting room or on any of the few occasions he actually played on a football field? Because the *only* knock I've ever heard on that player had to do with the rubber hammies. For that reason alone--unless you're saying we should have known about the hamstring issues and he was a bad pick as a result--holding him up as an example of reaching relative to Mel Kiper's board is fairly meaningless.

On the flip side, there are any number of guys across the league who were great value picks according to these 'expert' boards who have turned out to have fairly obvious shortcomings as draft picks once they got into the league. It works both ways, as we're so fond of saying around here. And if we can only work with the information available to us, and that information is often wrong, well, I'm not sure what we're doing should be called 'working.'
 

xwalker

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The team spends a lot of time and money grading players across the board and as specific fits for their system. Once that work's done, the smart thing to do is to trust that work and to assume other teams are going to have a similar process. This should be done 100% without any regard whatsoever for what Mel Kiper or Mike Mayock may think. If you think the guy is in that group of 3rd rounders who can work as a swing OT for you, then you consider him in the 3rd because you assume another team with a similar defense will have graded him the same way. Then you make your picks and get the best combination of picks and value you can swing. If it turns out that a guy you had a second round grade on and got in the third had a 5th round grade from a talking hairpiece who is famous for not taking bathroom breaks during the draft, well, um....so what?

On Matt Johnson, because that poor dude gets batted around like a beachball in every CZ draft discussion...did anybody once hear a coach say anything bad about him as a teammate or in the meeting room or on any of the few occasions he actually played on a football field? Because the *only* knock I've ever heard on that player had to do with the rubber hammies. For that reason alone--unless you're saying we should have known about the hamstring issues and he was a bad pick as a result--holding him up as an example of reaching relative to Mel Kiper's board is fairly meaningless.

On the flip side, there are any number of guys across the league who were great value picks according to these 'expert' boards who have turned out to have fairly obvious shortcomings as draft picks once they got into the league. It works both ways, as we're so fond of saying around here. And if we can only work with the information available to us, and that information is often wrong, well, I'm not sure what we're doing should be called 'working.'

Another issue is that the draft media likes to have their rankings in line with what fans expect. You've probably noticed, but media that put out rankings that are significantly different than the norm are vilified by fans and regarded as being morons. When your customers are the fans, it does not pay to vary from the norm by too much.
 

Idgit

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Another issue is that the draft media likes to have their rankings in line with what fans expect. You've probably noticed, but media that put out rankings that are significantly different than the norm are vilified by fans and regarded as being morons. When your customers are the fans, it does not pay to vary from the norm by too much.

Definitely. The fact that players move up the 'draft boards' fairly dramatically as consensus builds is a pretty good indication of how consensus drives that process until people settle in with their expectations. And then a guy like Gregory 'slides' to 60 and everybody claps.
 

dallasdave

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Definitely. The fact that players move up the 'draft boards' fairly dramatically as consensus builds is a pretty good indication of how consensus drives that process until people settle in with their expectations. And then a guy like Gregory 'slides' to 60 and everybody claps.

I know I jumped for joy when the Cowboys got Gregory. And I want to point out the Cowboys did a great job this year. Hardy in the off season, Jones, Gregory, in the draft. Collins after the draft. It's good to be a Cowboy fan now. I think a Super Bowl win is around the corner.:)
 
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