Well well well. Mayer still available

[beware_d-ware]

No, I quite enjoy the arrogance of your posts.

There's posters on this draft forum who I'd call arrogant, and Cnu is like the last one.

Teams get picks wrong all the time. Fans get picks wrong too. It's a crapshoot, and there's no right answers. Two people can watch the same tape on a guy, pull up the same stats, look at the same analytics, same cap figures, etc, and completely disagree about picking him. It's more like a debate than a science.

IMO, what's arrogant is assuming that just because an NFL team picked a guy, they're right and fans should shut up. NFL teams miss a TON of draft picks.

 

[cnuball21]

There's posters on this draft forum who I'd call arrogant, and Cnu is like the last one.

Teams get picks wrong all the time. Fans get picks wrong too. It's a crapshoot, and there's no right answers. Two people can watch the same tape on a guy, pull up the same stats, look at the same analytics, same cap figures, etc, and completely disagree about picking him. It's more like a debate than a science.

IMO, what's arrogant is assuming that just because an NFL team picked a guy, they're right and fans should shut up. NFL teams miss a TON of draft picks.

High five bro!

 

[Sydla]

Just to be clear, what you are saying is the reason why a team drafted different than your value position fixation is because they are dumb? Same with a G at #11 and a TE at #25.

It's not my value position fixation. It's what's pretty widely accepted around the league. TBs are just not valued as much in the league today. One, as I noted, the cost of replacement isn't great at TB. Two, analysis shows that TBs have some of the shortest shelf life of any position and also have the quickest downturn in production of most other positions. Three, teams consistently show they can build great run games without having to use a first round pick on a TB.

And the reality is there are some poorly run teams out there that make questionable decisions all the time. Detroit has been one of those teams. They have a first round TB already on their roster. They just signed a TB that will made him one of the 15 highest AAVs at his position in the entire league and then drafted another TB last night. That strategy is clearly unique in today's NFL.

 

[Spottswoode]

It's not that Dan Campbell doesn't know his team needs its that Dan Campbell's priorities for what the team needs is wrong. I don't care if Gibbs and Campbell are All-Pros, that's horrible value in the first round, especially when you traded down from a spot where you could have taken a premier player at a premier position.

That’s your opinion. And I’m sure Campbell didn’t take that into consideration when he made the picks that he has likely spent hundreds of hours researching.

I’m not supporting or bashing the picks. I’m just pointing out the arrogance and narrow mindedness of know it all CZ posters who have somehow come to the conclusion that their opinions matter and they know more than people who have been in football all their lives.

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

That’s your opinion. And I’m sure Campbell didn’t take that into consideration when he made the picks that he has likely spent hundreds of hours researching.

I’m not supporting or bashing the picks. I’m just pointing out the arrogance and narrow mindedness of know it all CZ posters who have somehow come to the conclusion that their opinions matter and they know more than people who have been in football all their lives.

It's not opinion, positional value is based on math and science lol

 

[Spottswoode]

There's posters on this draft forum who I'd call arrogant, and Cnu is like the last one.

Teams get picks wrong all the time. Fans get picks wrong too. It's a crapshoot, and there's no right answers. Two people can watch the same tape on a guy, pull up the same stats, look at the same analytics, same cap figures, etc, and completely disagree about picking him. It's more like a debate than a science.

IMO, what's arrogant is assuming that just because an NFL team picked a guy, they're right and fans should shut up. NFL teams miss a TON of draft picks.

I don’t know @cnuball21 personally but I’m sure he is a great guy that would be fun to share a beer with. It would be a fun exercise though to see how often he dumps on others opinions of positions because they just don’t understand. But I guess that’s not arrogance.

And you are completely missing the point if you think that I am supporting the Detroit just because they made the pick.
I NEVER SAID THAT. I am not the one who is taking an absolute stance that they are dumb. Frankly, I don’t know if it’s a good pick or not.

 

[Spottswoode]

It's not opinion, positional value is based on math and science lol

Thanks for joining the conversation. As preparation for continued dialogue, please refer to previous posts for context. Thank you for your attention and welcome.

 

[Malhavoc]

There's posters on this draft forum who I'd call arrogant, and Cnu is like the last one.

Teams get picks wrong all the time. Fans get picks wrong too. It's a crapshoot, and there's no right answers. Two people can watch the same tape on a guy, pull up the same stats, look at the same analytics, same cap figures, etc, and completely disagree about picking him. It's more like a debate than a science.

IMO, what's arrogant is assuming that just because an NFL team picked a guy, they're right and fans should shut up. NFL teams miss a TON of draft picks.

Time will tell as to whether Gibbs and Campbell were reaches. If both guys turn out to be Pro Bowl players it won’t matter.

 

[TwoDeep3]

I felt all along he looked like a 2nd round prospect. The lack of athleticism was a major red flag.

Glad to see he’s still available..

The cherry on top would be if the NFL take Laporta over him who probably has more upside.

So glad we passed on him. Even for a 2 down run stuffer that was a waste of a 1st rounder.

It appears to me the anchor post in this thread - which is yours - has a timber of gloating. Well, well, well......

I'm not certain why you would take that posture. I believe you were very adamant about passing on Parsons. I also recall your angst at the pick of Tyler Smith. And last night in chat you were pretty vocal about the Mazi pick.

But on a larger scale than your position, it seems Dallas has been doing a good job drafting early lately. We can all point to the cornerback in the second they took that hasn't panned out. Kelvin Joseph. Yet looking at last year alone, they selected:

DraftHistory.com

***Tyler Smith
***Sam Williams
Jalon Tolbert
**Jake Ferguson
Matt Waletzko
***Daron Bland
***Damone Clark

*** player
**hopeful

The board erupts every year after a selection is made. Some of it is name brand. And that doesn't make sense. These guys draft pretty well. Some of it is pet cats. That shouldn't cause an earthquake.

But some of it is the fan base not trusting this team. I get that. But one area they seem to be getting closer to right is drafting.

Catch17, we've been posting together for a long, long time. That may be why I read your posts as much, if not more than others. Seems I can recall a time when we agreed a great deal. That isn't so lately. Disagreeing with you is okay. We debate, and do so civilly. Just know I am not picking on you. But dumbfounded by this post.

 

[Spottswoode]

It's not my value position fixation. It's what's pretty widely accepted around the league. TBs are just not valued as much in the league today. One, as I noted, the cost of replacement isn't great at TB. Two, analysis shows that TBs have some of the shortest shelf life of any position and also have the quickest downturn in production of most other positions. Three, teams consistently show they can build great run games without having to use a first round pick on a TB.

And the reality is there are some poorly run teams out there that make questionable decisions all the time. Detroit has been one of those teams. They have a first round TB already on their roster. They just signed a TB that will made him one of the 15 highest AAVs at his position in the entire league and then drafted another TB last night. That strategy is clearly unique in today's NFL.

And yet 4 low value positions were drafted in R1. And it happens every year.

And if you refer back to my previous posts, you will find that I have made the same RB value statement on numerous occasions.

I’m not arguing that value doesn’t play a role when teams create their draft boards, as I said, I have stated that many times. I’m sure it also varies by team and situation. But IMO, to make blanket statements that any team drafting a “low value” positions early is dumb is narrow minded. And to do so without knowing the internal workings of the decision process and team discussions is the height of arrogance. IMO

 

[CATCH17]

It appears to me the anchor post in this thread - which is yours - has a timber of gloating. Well, well, well......

I'm not certain why you would take that posture. I believe you were very adamant about passing on Parsons. I also recall your angst at the pick of Tyler Smith. And last night in chat you were pretty vocal about the Mazi pick.

But on a larger scale than your position, it seems Dallas has been doing a good job drafting early lately. We can all point to the cornerback in the second they took that hasn't panned out. Kelvin Joseph. Yet looking at last year alone, they selected:

DraftHistory.com

***Tyler Smith
***Sam Williams
Jalon Tolbert
**Jake Ferguson
Matt Waletzko
***Daron Bland
***Damone Clark

*** player
**hopeful

The board erupts every year after a selection is made. Some of it is name brand. And that doesn't make sense. These guys draft pretty well. Some of it is pet cats. That shouldn't cause an earthquake.

But some of it is the fan base not trusting this team. I get that. But one area they seem to be getting closer to right is drafting.

Catch17, we've been posting together for a long, long time. That may be why I read your posts as much, if not more than others. Seems I can recall a time when we agreed a great deal. That isn't so lately. Disagreeing with you is okay. We debate, and do so civilly. Just know I am not picking on you. But dumbfounded by this post.

Twodeep, I just talk a lot of trash dude. Always have respected you and your posts.

 

[Sydla]

And yet 4 low value positions were drafted in R1. And it happens every year.

And if you refer back to my previous posts, you will find that I have made the same RB value statement on numerous occasions.

I’m not arguing that value doesn’t play a role when teams create their draft boards, as I said, I have stated that many times. I’m sure it also varies by team and situation. But IMO, to make blanket statements that any team drafting a “low value” positions early is dumb is narrow minded. And to do so without knowing the internal workings of the decision process and team discussions is the height of arrogance. IMO

I mean I think it kind of is poor drafting strategy. Especially when taking in other factors.

The Lions now have TWO running backs that will be in the Top 20 of cap hits for TBs in 2023 (three in the Top 25). That's questionable cap management right there (and hence why they might be trying to unload Swift).

 

[CATCH17]

I mean I think it kind of is poor drafting strategy. Especially when taking in other factors.

The Lions now have TWO running backs that will be in the Top 20 of cap hits for TBs in 2023 (three in the Top 25). That's questionable cap management right there (and hence why they might be trying to unload Swift).

They have to trade Swift and get compensation for the pick or it makes no sense.

The Lions have been killing it in the draft and then last night happened.

I’m a huge Gibbs fan too and I wanted him in Dallas.

If I’m the Dolphins I want Swift.

 

[Carson]

Slide to 58!

 

[Spottswoode]

Time will tell as to whether Gibbs and Campbell were reaches. If both guys turn out to be Pro Bowl players it won’t matter.

But who decides what a reach is? Is it an internet consensus board? Is it the teams board that they spent countless hours constructing? Is it a CZ forum who probably couldn’t name 5 starters without a cheat sheet? For all we know, there could have been 5 first round teams who would have selected Gibbs. I would be willing to bet there was a reason why he went #12 and not Detroits other picks at #18 or #34.

Drafting would be really easy if we could make selections in hindsight. Instead we have to make choices with limited information. We march players around in their underwear and measure their limbs in 1/8ths of inches. We give them IQ tests and test their situational response times on Xboxes. We ask their grade school teachers if they acted up in class and if they were polite on their last date.

All I’m saying is this is an inexact science. Teams make choices they feel, based on countless hours of research, is in the best interest of their teams. Do they get it right all the time. Obviously no. Are some teams more risk averse and choose high floor v high ceiling players, absolutely. It just amazes me how fans of another team seem to have all the answers and somehow the people who do this for a living are somehow uninformed.

 

[Spottswoode]

I mean I think it kind of is poor drafting strategy. Especially when taking in other factors.

The Lions now have TWO running backs that will be in the Top 20 of cap hits for TBs in 2023 (three in the Top 25). That's questionable cap management right there (and hence why they might be trying to unload Swift).

And you may be right…I don’t know. But I would be shocked if they were unaware of the RB’s they have in their roster.

 

[HungryLion]

Just asking but am I wrong in saying one if the knocks on Mazi was effort? A lot of reports have mentioned it. Where I think that gets fixed, if true, is Quinn

I don’t think it’s effort. It’s consistency. He also played a lot of snaps for a NT. He probably just got gassed to be honest.

 

[Sydla]

And you may be right…I don’t know. But I would be shocked if they were unaware of the RB’s they have in their roster.

Oh I don't think they are unaware of the RBs on their roster. I think they have misplaced valuations and overvalue the importance of TBs. That will be even more obvious if they don't somehow trade Swift (or I guess even cut him).

 

[HungryLion]

I don't know, coming back and taking Campbell at 18 was kinda weird to me.

I said to a buddy last night. The lions had the best first round…… if it was 1990.


A RB and an off ball LB.

 

[Malhavoc]

But who decides what a reach is? Is it an internet consensus board? Is it the teams board that they spent countless hours constructing? Is it a CZ forum who probably couldn’t name 5 starters without a cheat sheet? For all we know, there could have been 5 first round teams who would have selected Gibbs. I would be willing to bet there was a reason why he went #12 and not Detroits other picks at #18 or #34.

Drafting would be really easy if we could make selections in hindsight. Instead we have to make choices with limited information. We march players around in their underwear and measure their limbs in 1/8ths of inches. We give them IQ tests and test their situational response times on Xboxes. We ask their grade school teachers if they acted up in class and if they were polite on their last date.

All I’m saying is this is an inexact science. Teams make choices they feel, based on countless hours of research, is in the best interest of their teams. Do they get it right all the time. Obviously no. Are some teams more risk averse and choose high floor v high ceiling players, absolutely. It just amazes me how fans of another team seem to have all the answers and somehow the people who do this for a living are somehow uninformed.

100% agree. When we say reach I think most compare it to internet boards. The fact is every team puts together their own board and they all differ from what we see on the internet. Maybe Detroit nailed it. I always subscribe to the theory of wait a couple years before judging a draft.