Wentz is better than Dak in some things at this point

[mattjames2010]

There is every game, outside of the Eagles/Cowboys game, for you guys to watch.

You guys could try at any point now to understand what the scouts/GMs are trying to say here. This "He's dinking and dunking" means nothing, WATCH the kind of throws he makes. He fits them into tight windows, he's fitting balls over defenders heads, he has perfect ball placement on many throws where only his WR can get it. No, not everything is perfect, but he certainly has the look of a prototypical QB any GM would want.

Wentz: Great arm, accurate, mobile, good mechanics
Prescott: Questionable arm and goes noodle arm on throws, bad mechanics, inconsistent footwork, good poise, decent scrambler

This shouldn't be much of a debate as to why they prefer Wentz. Dak "noodle arm" Prescott simply doesn't have the ceiling Wentz has.

 

[Idgit]

Please point me to where I tried to pivot, alter, or confuse the topic. I joined an in progress conversation by replying to posts about the QB play in Sunday's game.

Just go back and read your own posts. Here's the first post you replied to, clearly talking about generalizations:

Wentz has shown to be much better at collapsing in the 4th quarter with the game on the line and throwing key interceptions that cost his team the game..
That is all.

Here's your first post, changing the conversation to talk about the PHI game:

Dak interception was simply dropped.

Here's him taking your bait, but asking you straight up why you're spinning the conversation, and then pivoting it *back* to talking about a larger sample size for Wentz:

Actually you are wrong. It was Wentzs interception that hit Scandrick in the chest and was dropped.

The ball that Leodis McKelvin didn't catch was not a ball that has a high probability of being caught by any player. McKelvin made an excellent play to even get his hands on that pass.

Why do you bring this up and put this spin on it?

Wentz has now had 3 games in his hands to put the other team away late in the forth. He has soiled himself in each opportunity. Dak played a pretty bad game but when given the opportunity he made the plays Wentz hasn't show the ability to make so far.

You deny it....and then try to paint the forum like we're the ones who are unable to be objective, when really you're just trying to narrow the topic to a span of quarters that paints the Cowboys player in a negative light:

Put my spin on it?

Some aren't capable of objectivity when it goes against what they want to believe. Most of them post here.

And then another exchange where you again accuse everybody else who are participating in the thread on topic of being homers. When, really, you're trying to steer the conversation into a very narrow ditch for reasons that aren't completely clear.

You sound like you are speaking of yourself if you really post that McKelvin should have made that interception yet fail to mention Scandrick having one bounce off his chest.

McKelvins attempted INT was not something that anyone can objectively say he should have caught. In baseball that would never be ruled an error.

McKelvin should have caught it. Dak almost threw another one late in the 3rd, too.

Both guys played like rookies. The fact that Prescott's team won had very little to do with him. The fact that we are finding reasons to suggest Dak outplayed Wentz is a sign of pure homerism.

Pretty straightforward, no?

 

[superonyx]

Just go back and read your own posts. Here's the first post you replied to, clearly talking about generalizations:

​

Here's your first post, changing the conversation to talk about the PHI game:

​

Here's him taking your bait, but asking you straight up why you're spinning the conversation, and then pivoting it *back* to talking about a larger sample size for Wentz:

​

You deny it....and then try to paint the forum like we're the ones who are unable to be objective, when really you're just trying to narrow the topic to a span of quarters that paints the Cowboys player in a negative light:

​

And then another exchange where you again accuse everybody else who are participating in the thread on topic of being homers. When, really, you're trying to steer the conversation into a very narrow ditch for reasons that aren't completely clear.

​

Pretty straightforward, no?

Yikes..
Remind me to never argue with you

 

[Idgit]

Who are these members you're referring to, outside of Risen? And why would a poster thinking Wentz is or will be better be a matter of loyalty? You don't think Wentz is special, and that's fine. But someone thinking otherwise doesn't make them a closet Eagles fan.

For the record, I think they've both played well. I think Dak has played better, but is in a better situation. I think Wentz has the higher upside, but Dak is likely better today. But I also think Dak for a 4th is better than Wetnz for everything the Eagles gave up. Does that make me a Eagles fan? Because I'm pretty sure that's close to the consensus outside of Cowboys forums.

My post which you quoted said explicitly that I was not suggesting that anybody who loved Carson Wentz was a closet Eagles fan, so let's not try to make a straw man out of the comment. What I said was that the Cult of Wentz on a Cowboys' board when he really isn't been a special player did have me questioning some motivations.

 

[ConceptCoop]

Here's your first post, changing the conversation to talk about the PHI game:

I was responding to a post about the PHI game. I didn't change, pivot, or confuse any conversation.

​

Here's him taking your bait, but asking you straight up why you're spinning the conversation, and then pivoting it *back* to talking about a larger sample size for Wentz:

No bait. No spin. I made one comment and was accused of putting my spin on it (twice now), and later of not understanding football.

You deny it....and then try to paint the forum like we're the ones who are unable to be objective, when really you're just trying to narrow the topic to a span of quarters that paints the Cowboys player in a negative light:

Why would I want to talk bad about the Cowboys? I'm a freaking Cowboys fan. I'm simply calling it as I see it - Dak had a bad game on Sunday and is in a much better situation than Carson Wentz. That's not me going out of my way to paint anyone in a negative light. It's simply having a real conversation that's more than "Our guys good. Their guys bad."

It seems like you don't like what I have to say, and that's fine. But that's very different than what you've accused me of.

​

 

[Idgit]

Yikes..
Remind me to never argue with you

Fortunately, the conversations are threaded, so it's easy to cut and paste. Normally, I wouldn't have taken the time, but I have to admit it chaffes my undercarriage a bit to have fans criticizing the CZ fanbase for being homers in the midst of a 6-1 run where our rookie 4th rounder bested a player our hated rivals traded up for to the #2 pick overall and who's play has been merely, as Marinelli would put it, solid so far.

If you're a Cowboys fan who can't enjoy the deliciousness of Dak beating Wentz in overtime without feeling the need to prop Wentz and take shots at your fellow fans on your own message board, well, then I just don't know what to say. Why wander into this thread at all to nitpick Dak's bad pass in the first place? We all saw the game. We all know it was not his best football this year, and we know it was because he was playing against a very good front that pressured him and rattled him a bit. It's got nothing to do with the larger issue, and the larger issue is something we all ought to be pretty happy about.

 

[Idgit]

...Why would I want to talk bad about the Cowboys? I'm a freaking Cowboys fan. I'm simply calling it as I see it - Dak had a bad game on Sunday and is in a much better situation than Carson Wentz. That's not me going out of my way to paint anyone in a negative light. It's simply having a read conversation that's more than "Our guys good. They're guys bad."

It seems like you don't like what I have to say, and that's fine. But that's very different than what you've accused me of.

I didn't ask why you would want to talk about the Cowboys. I asked why you'd wander into a thread comparing our rookie QB's season to our rival's rookie QB's season, narrow the general topic down to a single play or two a few quarters in a single game where our guy did not play well, and then start accusing other Cowboys of being biased homers who can't see things straight. When it's really you who are off-topic and trying to constrain the discussion to a series of plays where you would actually have a point.

It's not that I don't like what you have to say, at all. If what you're backpedalling to is what you 'had to say,' I'd say 'yep' and agree with you. He had a bad game Sunday up until overtime, really, and I said as much in the post game threads.

And I didn't accuse you of anything other than narrowing the topic so that you could accuse other Cowboys fans of being blind homers when they're really the ones who happen to be on-point here.

 

[superonyx]

There is every game, outside of the Eagles/Cowboys game, for you guys to watch.

You guys could try at any point now to understand what the scouts/GMs are trying to say here. This "He's dinking and dunking" means nothing, WATCH the kind of throws he makes. He fits them into tight windows, he's fitting balls over defenders heads, he has perfect ball placement on many throws where only his WR can get it. No, not everything is perfect, but he certainly has the look of a prototypical QB any GM would want.

Wentz: Great arm, accurate, mobile, good mechanics
Prescott: Questionable arm and goes noodle arm on throws, bad mechanics, inconsistent footwork, good poise, decent scrambler

This shouldn't be much of a debate as to why they prefer Wentz. Dak "noodle arm" Prescott simply doesn't have the ceiling Wentz has.

Or the ceiling Jeff George had, or Brandon Weeden, or Ryan Tannehill, or Blaine Gabbert.

I think we get why scouts fall in love with strong armed QB's. It just doesn't guarantee success and most of elite QB's seem to be lacking these measurable tools. It's the brain that makes Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Tony Romo ect...even Montana and Young special.

I get what the scouts look for when drafting QB's. I'm not saying Prescott will be special. But his upside at this point seems to match Wentz upside.

I haven't seen any evidence of Dak being a "noodle arm" as you put it.
I've seen evidence of Wentz throwing balls too hard with no touch plenty of times already though. It's no coincidence that his receiver lead the league in drops....they didn't last year...

 

[ConceptCoop]

My post which you quoted said explicitly that I was not suggesting that anybody who loved Carson Wentz was a closet Eagles fan, so let's not try to make a straw man out of the comment. What I said was that the Cult of Wentz on a Cowboys' board when he really isn't been a special player did have me questioning some motivations.

No you didn't. See below. No straw man.

I really don't like to ever question members' loyalties, but I'd be lying if I said it hadn't crossed my mind that maybe we really do have some Eagles fans here crossdressing in blue and white jerseys. Not everybody who loves Wentz, obviously. But it's at least occurred to me.

 

[ConceptCoop]

I didn't ask why you would want to talk about the Cowboys. I asked why you'd wander into a thread comparing our rookie QB's season to our rival's rookie QB's season, narrow the general topic down to a single play or two a few quarters in a single game where our guy did not play well, and then start accusing other Cowboys of being biased homers who can't see things straight. When it's really you who are off-topic and trying to contain the discussion to a series of plays where you would actually have a point.

It's not that I don't like what you have to say, at all. If what you're backpedalling to is what you 'had to say,' I'd say 'yep' and agree with you. He had a bad game Sunday up until overtime, really, and I said as much in the post game threads.

And I didn't accuse you of anything other than narrowing the topic so that you could accuse other Cowboys fans of being blind homers when they're really the ones who happen to be on-point here.

I didn't try to make it about a single game. The comment that prompted me to join the conversation was about a single game. Not trying to be jerk, but do you understand that? There seems to be a misunderstanding there.

I'm made two central points in this thread:

1) Dak played awful on Sunday and we shouldn't use that game to suggest Dak is better. Plenty in this thread have.

and (on another note)

2) Dak's supporting cast is much better than Wentz's, so I don't think we can say he's been better this season, in a vacuum. I'm not sure we're not 6-1 with the top 2 ROY candidates with Wentz playing QB. And I'm not sure Dak isn't exactly where Wentz in today, if roles were reversed.

I am not trying to backpedal from anything. There it is. Nor did I pivot, confuse, or change any conversation.

 

[Idgit]

No you didn't. See below. No straw man.

Saying 'I'd be lying if it didn't cross my mind' is not the same thing as saying 'I think some of our fans are actually Eagles fans in disguise.' And like I said, I strongly believe everybody at CZ gets the benefit of the doubt until and unless specifically proven otherwise.

That said, it's not all that rare for a troll to be unmasked on a sports forum. We do have trolls from other teams who infiltrate and then later expose themselves.

But to be clear here, I have zero doubt that you're every bit a Cowboys fan, and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

 

[mattjames2010]

Or the ceiling Jeff George had, or Brandon Weeden, or Ryan Tannehill, or Blaine Gabbert.

I think we get why scouts fall in love with strong armed QB's. It just doesn't guarantee success and most of elite QB's seem to be lacking these measurable tools. It's the brain that makes Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Tony Romo ect...even Montana and Young special.

I get what the scouts look for when drafting QB's. I'm not saying Prescott will be special. But his upside at this point seems to match Wentz upside.

I haven't seen any evidence of Dak being a "noodle arm" as you put it.
I've seen evidence of Wentz throwing balls too hard with no touch plenty of times already though. It's no coincidence that his receiver lead the league in drops....they didn't last year...

First off, I'm not entirely sure how Prescott has the same ceiling Wentz does. Wentz, as of right now, came into this league with his mechanics, footwork being at a near NFL level and has an NFL arm. Prescott has some serious work to do in all of these areas, and will never have the NFL arm you look for in a QB. He just doesn't have that.

As for you pinning dropped balls on Wentz, Matthews has been criticized over this since last year. Nelson is getting more playing time, he has also been criticized for having bad hands. DGB hasn't been great in that area either.

Here is an article from October of last year: http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-eagles/some-ugly-ugly-stats-regarding-eagles-drops

This has been an Eagles issue for a while, but now, they have two other receivers with questionable hands attempting to catch passes from Wentz. Wentz is working with a lot of crap around him right now outside of Sproles.

Also, I actually really disliked Wentz coming out of college. Preferred Prescott, but I see what the scouts were saying now.

 

[StylisticS]

Dak had said after the game the Eagles had packages that were not shown on film or this season, basically Philly came up with a whole new defensive scheme to stop him and Zeke and still failed. Our defense is vanilla and still able to get Carson rattled, for me no brainer.

Yeah that roll out that was so successful again previous weeks was unsuccessful against Philadelphia. I think they ran it once and it was immediately read by Philly and Dallas didn't run that play again.

 

[gmoney112]

There is every game, outside of the Eagles/Cowboys game, for you guys to watch.

You guys could try at any point now to understand what the scouts/GMs are trying to say here. This "He's dinking and dunking" means nothing, WATCH the kind of throws he makes. He fits them into tight windows, he's fitting balls over defenders heads, he has perfect ball placement on many throws where only his WR can get it. No, not everything is perfect, but he certainly has the look of a prototypical QB any GM would want.

Wentz: Great arm, accurate, mobile, good mechanics
Prescott: Questionable arm and goes noodle arm on throws, bad mechanics, inconsistent footwork, good poise, decent scrambler

This shouldn't be much of a debate as to why they prefer Wentz. Dak "noodle arm" Prescott simply doesn't have the ceiling Wentz has.

Hey, remember that time you suggested Dak was dinking and dunking, then I schooled you and you left the thread? Good times.

Speaking of watching games, you should try it sometime.

Carson may turn out better, who knows. But Dak has outplayed Carson this year, and anyone who can't see it is one of these people that doesn't "watch games" or "know what numbers mean".

Dak is a big reason why a team that managed to win one or two games without Tony Romo has won 6 straight and looks to be taking the division, while a team Carson stepped into with a Super Bowl caliber defense probably won't even make the playoffs.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Wentz is very good at what he's asked to do....which is dink and dunk.

Air Yards Per Completion (As of Oct 31 2016, minimum 1000 yards passing)

1. Cam Newton - 8.33
2. Tom Brady - 8.28
3. Carson Palmer - 8.06
4. Matt Ryan - 7.82
5. Andrew Dalton - 7.79
6. Tyrod Taylor - 7.73
7. Jameis Winston - 7.69
8. Dak Prescott - 7.63
9. Kirk Cousins - 7.47
10. Andrew Luck - 7.47
11. Trevor Siemian - 7.30
12. Ryan Fitzpatrick - 7.24
13. Philip Rivers - 7.15
14. Derek Carr - 7.08
15. Marcus Mariota - 7.04
16. Russell Wilson - 6.99
17. Roethlisberger - 6.80
18. Drew Brees - 6.55
19. Brock Osweiler - 6.48
20. Case Keenum - 6.37
21. Ryan Tannehill - 6.27
22. Sam Bradford - 5.81
23. Matthew Stafford - 5.75
24. Aaron Rodgers - 5.72
25. Alex Smith - 5.72
26. Blake Bortles - 5.71
27. Joe Flacco - 5.54
28. Brian Hoyer - 5.37
29. Carson Wentz - 5.35
30. Eli Manning - 5.22


Except for his game against the Browns, he's largely spent the last 6 games dinking, while his targets padded his stats with YAC. Big arm or not, the guy is the next Alex Smith if he stays under that coaching staff.

Hate this stat. Air yards per completion? How about air yards per attempt?

 

[superonyx]

First off, I'm not entirely sure how Prescott has the same ceiling Wentz does. Wentz, as of right now, came into this league with his mechanics, footwork being at a near NFL level and has an NFL arm. Prescott has some serious work to do in all of these areas, and will never have the NFL arm you look for in a QB. He just doesn't have that.

As for you pinning dropped balls on Wentz, Matthews has been criticized over this since last year. Nelson is getting more playing time, he has also been criticized for having bad hands. DGB hasn't been great in that area either.

Here is an article from October of last year: http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-eagles/some-ugly-ugly-stats-regarding-eagles-drops

This has been an Eagles issue for a while, but now, they have two other receivers with questionable hands attempting to catch passes from Wentz. Wentz is working with a lot of crap around him right now outside of Sproles.

Also, I actually really disliked Wentz coming out of college. Preferred Prescott, but I see what the scouts were saying now.

I'm having trouble finding any scouting reports claiming Dak doesn't have a strong enough arm for the NFL. In fact most list his natural arm strength as a plus.

STRENGTHS
Thick, muscular frame. Has proven over last three seasons that he can withstand a pounding. Has enough natural arm strength and hip snap to fit throws into an NFL window. Stands tall and delivers a tight spiral with over-the-top delivery. Very little windup and gets ball out with the flick of a wrist. When pocket is clean, can deliver accurate strikes around the field.

 

[mattjames2010]

Hey, remember that time you suggested Dak was dinking and dunking, then I schooled you and you left the thread? Good times.

Speaking of watching games, you should try it sometime.

Carson may turn out better, who knows. But Dak has outplayed Carson this year, and anyone who can't see it is one of these people that doesn't "watch games" or "know what numbers mean".

Dak is a big reason why a team that managed to win one or two games without Tony Romo has won 6 straight and looks to be taking the division, while a team Carson stepped into with a Super Bowl caliber defense probably won't even make the playoffs.

No, I don't "remember" that. If it happened, I'm sure i responded to you. Now, moving on.

I have watched the games, both live and watched them over once they were put on that channel. I kinda like to see what NFC East opponents are doing. Moving on

He is better than Dak at the moment in the very importance of the QB position.

There are many factors as to why we are winning games

- Consistent RB this year
- O-line
- WRs getting YAC
- Better offensive playcalling

Having a QB playing better than Weeden, Cassel, and Moore is not a triumph.

 

[mattjames2010]

I'm having trouble finding any scouting reports claiming Dak doesn't have a strong enough arm for the NFL. In fact most list his natural arm strength as a plus.

STRENGTHS
Thick, muscular frame. Has proven over last three seasons that he can withstand a pounding. Has enough natural arm strength and hip snap to fit throws into an NFL window. Stands tall and delivers a tight spiral with over-the-top delivery. Very little windup and gets ball out with the flick of a wrist. When pocket is clean, can deliver accurate strikes around the field.

I post in another thread a link with quotes from a scout breaking down Prescott's play. He there discussed balls fluttering, lack of zip on passes even when stepping into his throws. You can see this stuff for yourself, there are plenty of games on draft breakdown for you to watch, you don't need scouts for this.

I'm not worried about the can he throw the ball 50-60 yards down the field, I worry about if he can consistently get zip on the ball without going full noodle arm like he did a few times against the Eagles.

 

[gmoney112]

No, I don't "remember" that. If it happened, I'm sure i responded to you. Now, moving on.

I have watched the games, both live and watched them over once they were put on that channel. I kinda like to see what NFC East opponents are doing. Moving on

He is better than Dak at the moment in the very importance of the QB position.

There are many factors as to why we are winning games

- Consistent RB this year
- O-line
- WRs getting YAC
- Better offensive playcalling

Having a QB playing better than Weeden, Cassel, and Moore is not a triumph.

Of course you don't remember. Don't worry, I'll remind you when I get off work. You spamming every thread with Dak "dinking and dunking", then I brought out, you know, real numbers unlike this hot air you blow out your backside on a daily basis in your "analysis".

Rule #1. When talking about Dak or Carson, Mattjames will continually tell people how much of the "games" he "watches". Then he'll promptly give an opinion stated as fact that's about as accurate as hearing Billy Bob who's lived off Farm Road 227 his entire life talk about Mergers & Acquisitions.

Leave the analysis to the grown folk, kid.

 

[phildadon86]

Of course you don't remember. Don't worry, I'll remind you when I get off work. You spamming every thread with Dak "dinking and dunking", then I brought out, you know, real numbers unlike this hot air you blow out your backside on a daily basis in your "analysis".

Rule #1. When talking about Dak or Carson, Mattjames will continually tell people how much of the "games" he "watches". Then he'll promptly give an opinion stated as fact that's about as accurate as hearing Billy Bob who's lived off Farm Road 227 his entire life talk about Mergers & Acquisitions.

Leave the analysis to the grown folk, kid.

I read multiple draft and scouting reports and Daks arm was rarely a question. So i dont know what is going on here.