We're going to have to cut a quality d-linemen

[SilverStarCowboy]

With #95 Edwards coming on strong and Hayden a book mark for the Coaches, it's hard to just let someone getting a push in the middle like Bishop or Coleman go bye , you can't let #58 Crawford slip through....trade Mincey for a RB while he has some value.

 

[Idgit]

His contributions can be easily replaced. Smart? OK so what? High-effort? OK so what? He isn't a difference maker or play maker on the field and that is all I care about. If a defensive unit is graded by it's weakest player, and that player is Hayden, your defense is not a playoff defense. He is a progress stopper and should be a former Cowboy soon. Or do you want me to tell you how I really feel?

I agree with all that, too. At the end of the day, it's a position where they want a guy who knows what to do and can do it 'ok.' It's just not that important a position in terms of the ability of the player.

My point is more the reaction I have whenever the fans have it out for a multi-year starter who's adequate or below average for their position. Anybody in the NFL who's getting starting snaps is actually pretty good at his job. If somebody could take the position from Hayden, they would. It's not like the proscouts aren't looking to upgrade that spot. It's not like college DTs aren't looking around the league, trying to find a place where they can displace somebody or earn a spot on a roster.

People love to say a guy sucks when they're an easy target. They did it for years with Kyle Kosier. They did it for a couple seasons with Phil Costa. They've done it to Hayden since he's been in Dallas. I get it. These guys are targets. It just always irks me to hear fans acting like they somehow see things the coaches don't when it comes to evaluating players like this. If there were more than a couple dozen guys on the planet who could do what Hayden does, it's a fairly safe bet that we'd have found one of them and given him the chance to do it sometime during the last few years.

Who knows? Maybe Coleman or Bishop are those guys and they'll displace him this season. I'd love that, because it means the roster is getting better. Maybe it's not until next year we get that done. But for now, at least, I think we should cut the guy a break. It's bad enough that he's probably the worst starter on our defense. We don't need to suggest there's no place for him on the roster.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I agree with all that, too. At the end of the day, it's a position where they want a guy who knows what to do and can do it 'ok.' It's just not that important a position in terms of the ability of the player.

My point is more the reaction I have whenever the fans have it out for a multi-year starter who's adequate or below average for their position. Anybody in the NFL who's getting starting snaps is actually pretty good at his job. If somebody could take the position from Hayden, they would. It's not like the proscouts aren't looking to upgrade that spot. It's not like college DTs aren't looking around the league, trying to find a place where they can displace somebody or earn a spot on a roster.

People love to say a guy sucks when they're an easy target. They did it for years with Kyle Kosier. They did it for a couple seasons with Phil Costa. They've done it to Hayden since he's been in Dallas. I get it. These guys are targets. It just always irks me to hear fans acting like they somehow see things the coaches don't when it comes to evaluating players like this. If there were more than a couple dozen guys on the planet who could do what Hayden does, it's a fairly safe bet that we'd have found one of them and given him the chance to do it sometime during the last few years.

Who knows? Maybe Coleman or Bishop are those guys and they'll displace him this season. I'd love that, because it means the roster is getting better. Maybe it's not until next year we get that done. But for now, at least, I think we should cut the guy a break. It's bad enough that he's probably the worst starter on our defense. We don't need to suggest there's no place for him on the roster.

Do not compare Kosier to Hayden. Compare him to Procter, Davis, Ball, and other of similar skillsets for their position.

Kosier was a good player that would single block Hayden easily like the rest do.

 

[big dog cowboy]

But for now, at least, I think we should cut the guy a break. It's bad enough that he's probably the worst starter on our defense. We don't need to suggest there's no place for him on the roster.

Wanna bet?

 

[Kaiser]

There are 64 starting DEs in the NFL. Ranking 24th would put him in the top 40%.

There are many levels between an elite player and a Jag.

Your argument seems to be that if a player is not in the elite category then he has to be a Jag.

And you have to consider that Mincey was part of a line that started Selvie and Hayden last year. Being the only guy on the field that can rush the passer means opposing teams can focus their blocking schemes on you.

 

[BlindFaith]

Mincy played in a rotation how do these guys and the others listed stack up against Mincy in number of snaps played?

That is a big reason his tackle numbers are so low, why don't you trot those stats out so we can get a true idea of production?

http://i1079.***BLOCKED***/albums/w506/blindfaith69/tackles%20per%20play.png

He was 28th in tackles per play just compared to DEs.

 

[BlindFaith]

Mincy played in a rotation how do these guys and the others listed stack up against Mincy in number of snaps played?

That is a big reason his tackle numbers are so low, why don't you trot those stats out so we can get a true idea of production?

http://i1079.***BLOCKED***/albums/w506/blindfaith69/sacks%20per%20play.png

22nd in sacks per play.

 

[windjc]

http://i1079.***BLOCKED***/albums/w506/blindfaith69/tackles%20per%20play.png

He was 28th in tackles per play just compared to DEs.

DUDE! Stop it.

Mincey was our most productive DL last year. He is also one of our best 5-6 DL this year. So there is no reason to replace him or cut him or do anything else with him until we replace the 4-5 guys NOT as good as him on our DL.

You can cherry pick stats all day long to try and justify what are PERSONAL grevances you have with him. Just let it go. You are just relegating yourself to the low pantheon of forum users who get unhealthy fixated one thing that is ultimately meaningless.

I mean its SOOOOO SILLY. 28th out of 64 starting DEs. That above average for a starter in the league. He is top 30 in the world. That is not a JAG.

 

[BlindFaith]

Mincy played in a rotation how do these guys and the others listed stack up against Mincy in number of snaps played?

That is a big reason his tackle numbers are so low, why don't you trot those stats out so we can get a true idea of production?

http://i1079.***BLOCKED***/albums/w506/blindfaith69/hurries%20per%20play.png

And 10th in the all important hurries. I guess he's the guy you want if all you want is someone to get near the QB after 6 or 7 seconds.

 

[Idgit]

Do not compare Kosier to Hayden. Compare him to Procter, Davis, Ball, and other of similar skillsets for their position.

Kosier was a good player that would single block Hayden easily like the rest do.

Pick your favorite two-year starters. The point's the same, though.

You're right that Kosier was a better player overall than Hayden has been. He was similarly targeted by fans, though, which was the comparison I was making.

 

[BlindFaith]

With #95 Edwards coming on strong and Hayden a book mark for the Coaches, it's hard to just let someone getting a push in the middle like Bishop or Coleman go bye , you can't let #58 Crawford slip through....trade Mincey for a RB while he has some value.

Find a team that would want him and I'd be all for it. Realistically, what do you think we could get for Mincey? A guy that they would be cutting anyway?

 

[BAT]

Hardy*

1. Lawrence
2. Mincey
3. Gregory
4. Russell
5. Gardner
6. Edwards
7. Crawford
8. Crawford
9. Hayden
10. Bishop
11. Coleman
12. McClain

With Hardy, you probably have to cut 3 at least.

Bills are looking for DL right now. Instead of cutting "quality" players, why not get something if possible. I'm sure other teams can use "quality" DL too.

 

[BlindFaith]

And you have to consider that Mincey was part of a line that started Selvie and Hayden last year. Being the only guy on the field that can rush the passer means opposing teams can focus their blocking schemes on you.

Or they didn't focus on him either and had all day to pass anyway? Mincey was never doubled. Crawford started getting all the attention the second half of the year.

This was nearly the worst pass defense in the league for a reason.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Pick your favorite two-year starters. The point's the same, though.

You're right that Kosier was a better player overall than Hayden has been. He was similarly targeted by fans, though, which was the comparison I was making.

Sure but Kosier is an example of a guy that was unfairly criticized. He shouldn't have been an easy target as he sustained blocks like a pro consistently. He played poorly when hurt his last season.

The rest of those guys had bad game after bad game and deserved doubt.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Or they didn't focus on him either and had all day to pass anyway? Mincey was never doubled. Crawford started getting all the attention the second half of the year.

This was nearly the worst pass defense in the league for a reason.

Mincey was doubled a lot. When we went to the 3 man line with Hayden at NT they would swing both G to the edge to double. It's been one of my biggest criticism of Hayden. When Crawford lined up next to him they would mix up protection.

 

[BlindFaith]

DUDE! Stop it.

Mincey was our most productive DL last year. He is also one of our best 5-6 DL this year. So there is no reason to replace him or cut him or do anything else with him until we replace the 4-5 guys NOT as good as him on our DL.

You can cherry pick stats all day long to try and justify what are PERSONAL grevances you have with him. Just let it go. You are just relegating yourself to the low pantheon of forum users who get unhealthy fixated one thing that is ultimately meaningless.

I mean its SOOOOO SILLY. 28th out of 64 starting DEs. That above average for a starter in the league. He is top 30 in the world. That is not a JAG.

People want stats. I gave stats. No one else has clarified why they think Mincey is so great other than he had a lot of pressures, which for this defense was meaningless because QBs had all day to throw the ball.

Tell me, why is he better than JAG? Cause he's fast? No.

Has any sort of moves? No.
Quick? No.
Lateral agility? Negative.
Gets sacks? Nope.
Strong against the rush? Never.

He plays with power. Bull rushes. And then every once in a while manages to get close to the QB. He's always late to the tackle. Has very limited ability to contain the edge. Gets washed down all the time. He was over weight most of the year.

He was 28th out of 32 primary pressure players for a given team. He was 43rd overall. That means most teams have TWO guys better at getting to the QB than Mincey. And that doesn't even factor in his ineptness against the run.

 

[BlindFaith]

Mincey was doubled a lot. When we went to the 3 man line with Hayden at NT they would swing both G to the edge to double. It's been one of my biggest criticism of Hayden. When Crawford lined up next to him they would mix up protection.

I don't agree. Mincey was seldom doubled.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

There are 64 starting DEs in the NFL. Ranking 24th would put him in the top 40%.

There are many levels between an elite player and a Jag.

Your argument seems to be that if a player is not in the elite category then he has to be a Jag.

yea, we got slightly better than average production for slightly less than average play, not sure why people want to get rid of that.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

People want stats. I gave stats. No one else has clarified why they think Mincey is so great other than he had a lot of pressures, which for this defense was meaningless because QBs had all day to throw the ball.

Tell me, why is he better than JAG? Cause he's fast? No.

Has any sort of moves? No.
Quick? No.
Lateral agility? Negative.
Gets sacks? Nope.
Strong against the rush? Never.

He plays with power. Bull rushes. And then every once in a while manages to get close to the QB. He's always late to the tackle. Has very limited ability to contain the edge. Gets washed down all the time. He was over weight most of the year.

He was 28th out of 32 primary pressure players for a given team. He was 43rd overall. That means most teams have TWO guys better at getting to the QB than Mincey. And that doesn't even factor in his ineptness against the run.

28th out of 32 and 43rd overall in what category? is it tackles per play? If so, that should not be the determining factor on what DEs we keep.

 

[BlindFaith]

28th out of 32 and 43rd overall in what category? is it tackles per play? If so, that should not be the determining factor on what DEs we keep.

Sacks.