What would you do about Roy? Trade him?

[The30YardSlant]

But he gets lit up like a Christmas Tree

Not nearly as much as Adrian Wilson, Sean Taylor, John Lynch, or Troy Polamalu do, but according to this board, all of the above are far superior to Roy

 

[smarta5150]

Not nearly as much as Adrian Wilson, Sean Taylor, John Lynch, or Troy Polamalu do, but according to this board, all of the above are far superior to Roy

Quote my entire reply.. people are gonna think I actually meant that :

 

[ScipioCowboy]

What I am saying is that no one outside of the orginization has a Cowboy's playbook, therefore everything we say is conjecture. I am also saying that the organization continues to put Roy in coverage, even though the media outlets say the blown coverage responsibilities were on Roy. I am also saying that Wade himself said in a press conference that the media do not know what they are talking about; that they do not know coverage responsibilities. And finally, I am saying that if Roy is such a liability in coverage as the media suggests, then that is on the coaches for putting him in that position not on Roy himself.

I agree.

Ultimately, the onus for poor play falls on the coaches because they select and teach the players.

However, we can't expect them to be perfect and this thread is about remedying a potential problem with Roy Williams...if there is one.

And although no one outside the Dallas organization has a Cowboy playbook, there are plenty of constants in football that analysts who are external to the organization can examine. We should also recognize that coaches and owners are subject to their own brand of foils and follies--egos, a desire to protect one's players, etc.--when dealing with players

You wouldn't ask Bledsoe to spread the defense and then run for the first like you would with Young, so why would the defensive staff put Roy in coverage if he is to blame for giving up all the big plays like the media claims. The only argument left is that the media don't know the coverage responsibilities and MAYBE Roy is credited with much more blame than is reality.

I hope you're right.

 

[Haley94]

Argh, how many times must we go over this?

Over the past 5 seasons (and 6 games this year), Roy Williams has accounted for more turnovers (19 INTs, 11 FF, 5 FR, total of 35) than ANY PLAYER IN FOOTBALL.

That includes Ed Reed, Champ Bailey, etc.

The man just makes plays. He has his deficiencies, but in the end he makes more plays, statistically, than anyone.

Those are persuasive stats and why it is foolish to think we should trade Roy.

On the other hand, our secondary has allowed the only two QBs who are worth a d*** to throw 9 TD passes against us. Our secondary, Roy included, must play smarter football.

Charlie Waters and Cliff Harris did not have the physical pedigree of Roy Williams or even Ken Hamilin, but if I'm not mistaken, they never surrendered 5 TD passes in a game. Why? because they were prideful, SMART football players.

The secondary as a whole MUST play better in the coming weeks. In my opinion, Roy has to play a little smarter and work a little harder in the film room.

Everyone has room for improvement. I do believe getting Henry back will help the whole unit. We can't afford any more injuries in the secondary, if we want to make a run.

 

[5Stars]

I agree.

Ultimately, the onus for poor play falls on the coaches because they select and teach the players.

However, we can't expect them to be perfect and this thread is about remedying a potential problem with Roy Williams...if there is one.

And although no one outside the Dallas organization has a Cowboy playbook, there are plenty of constants in football that analysts who are external to the organization can examine. We should also recognize that coaches and owners are subject to their own brand of foils and follies--egos, a desire to protect one's players, etc.--when dealing with players



I hope you're right.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

But that's EXACTLY what the Patriots did -- and that's all you have to do against that coverage, if it is what you think it is.

You run the tight end right at Roy at the goal line. Roy immediately covers him, because he's in his zone. The tight end turns outside, and Roy has to stay with him because it could be a hook and the tight end could stay right there, in his zone. Meanwhile, the outside receiver runs a post into the back of the end zone, behind Roy. If Roy stays on the tight end, the tight end keeps going outside, pulling Roy out of the throwing lane to Moss. If Roy drops into the back of the end zone, the tight settles in at the front instead of drifting outside and makes an easy catch at the goal line with nobody there to cover him.

THAT is the problem with the scheme. The only way to cover both the tight end at the goal line and the receiver in the back of the end zone is for Hamlin to get out of the middle of the field (where no receivers were) and get over to Moss sooner. We had three defenders in the end zone on the left side of the field against two receivers, Hamlin in the middle against no receivers and only two guys on the right against two receivers. If Hamlin slides over -- or even if Ware drops on HIS side instead of crossing all the way over to the left side -- we have balanced coverage, and Hamlin (or Ware) is in better position to defend against Moss.

I believe Mickey Spagnola just broke down this particular play in his most recent column. It's posted in the Daily Zone.

Edit: Here was Mickey's take: First, give Phillips credit. He has minimized the effect of Roy Williams' limited coverage skills for the most part. That's good, but ever so often he shows up, like he did on the goal line against the Patriots when he was supposed to bracket the outside guy with Terence Newman, yet jumped the tight end cutting to Newman's side, which left Randy Moss a clear path on the slant for the 6-yard touchdown.

 

[Doctor32]

Zone coverage at the goalline?

Not exactly the way I'd play it. And it looked like Ayodele had his man covered without Roy's 'help.'

Teams play goal-line zone all the time. Close quarters tend to allow offenses to cross up and pick off defenders by alignment in man-to-man situations. Goal Line Zone is more of a route inheritance philospohy as opposed to a defender being assigned a zone. For example, Newman stopped running with Moss on the 1st TD pass b/c (my guess) they were in some sort of goal line zone call. He saw an out side route - the TE - eventhough Roy was with him he might have anticipated that a LB or Safety assigned to inherit an inside route to take Moss coming across the inside.

 

[sacase]

I believe Mickey Spagnola just broke down this particular play in his most recent column. It's posted in the Daily Zone.

Edit: Here was Mickey's take: First, give Phillips credit. He has minimized the effect of Roy Williams' limited coverage skills for the most part. That's good, but ever so often he shows up, like he did on the goal line against the Patriots when he was supposed to bracket the outside guy with Terence Newman, yet jumped the tight end cutting to Newman's side, which left Randy Moss a clear path on the slant for the 6-yard touchdown.

If he brackets the outside guy who takes the TE curling under? If the pass wouldn't have gone to Moss it would have gone to Watson. Then who would they blame? Oh I know Roy again, who should have not bracketed the WR and taken the TE instead.

 

[junk]

Argh, how many times must we go over this?

Over the past 5 seasons (and 6 games this year), Roy Williams has accounted for more turnovers (19 INTs, 11 FF, 5 FR, total of 35) than ANY PLAYER IN FOOTBALL.

That includes Ed Reed, Champ Bailey, etc.

The man just makes plays. He has his deficiencies, but in the end he makes more plays, statistically, than anyone.

Apparently until people get it right.

Ed Reed has 31 INTs and 5 FF in the past 5 seasons (and 6 games this year). A total of 36. That doesn't include fumbles recovered (4).

I'm also not sure your stats on Roy Williams are correct. For some reason, nfl.com doesn't show his entire stat breakout like Reed, but ESPN only shows 8 forced fumbles in Roy's career. CNN/SI (STATS) matches this (and notes 8 FR....which matches your 16 total). Ed Reed's stats are consistent. Bottom line: Ed Reed - 40, Roy - 35

That also doesn't include the blocked punts, punts returned for TDs, etc.

The Ravens pass defense has also had the following rankings since 2002:

2006: Overall - 1st, Pass - 6th
2005: Overall - 5th, Pass - 8th
2004: Overall - 6th, Pass - 10th
2003: Overall - 3rd, Pass - 4th
2002: Overall - 22nd, Pass - 26th

Dallas since 2002:
2006: Overall - 13th, Pass - 24th
2005: Overall - 10th, Pass - 11th
2004: Overall - 16th, Pass - 21st
2003: Overall - 1st, Pass - 1st
2002: Overall - 18th, Pass - 19th

Why is trying to bash Reed part of the obligatory defense for Roy? He's a terrific football player and I'd take him over Roy every day of the week and twice on Tuesday.

 

[CF74]

ZONERS:

Do you believe we should trade SS Roy Williams?

I used to love watching him but anymore he just gives me gas....:bang2:

I own a autographed jersey, however, Roy cannot cover or wrap up and tackle and his hard hits......well, they DO NOT knock down the ball carrier like they once did.

What do you think we should HONESTLY do about Roy? :bang2:

Only if we can get Frank Gore or Ladanian Tomlinson straight up

 

[Stash]

No one has called you on this but I am guessing you never actually played football.

Your first statement is about 6 yard....ok it was 6 yards to the goalline but you do realize there are another 10 yards behind that right? You can run people into that area. So he was defending an area 16 yards deep or 48 ft. However you like it. Haven't played the game much huh?

Apologize for the mathematical error. In my defense, I was at work. You're right about the footage. But I still think it supports my point. Flooding two receivers into a small area is not an advantage to an offense.

now in the AdamJT part you ask how does he run a curl. Simple he runs to the back of the endzone and turns around and comes back slowly towards the QB. Hence curl.

So he stays in Roy Williams' coverage zone and never leaves it? Maybe then Roy would have made the play I guess.

in number 3 you really show your lack of football knowledge. This is a very simple patter that is run all the time. Moss runs a Fade and Watson runs 5 yards and heads towards the sideline, why would they bump into each other?The patterns compliment each other.

No wonder you think Roy messed up you don't even understand basic football.

Congratulations on your years of high school football glory. You must be so proud. The fact of the matter is that you would again have two players running in the same small area of the field - with Newman in between able to make a play on either one.

The call the Patriots made was better than any of the speculations mentioned. They crossed-up the defense, forcing two players to exchange coverage responsibilities. Roy Williams didn't and they got an easy six points. You can speculate about anything else all you want but that's what happened.

Your actually pretty lucky i had a little Photoshop I did to show you how the patter was run, but I don't know how to convert from a photoshop image to a jpg.

Guess they didn't teach you that in high school football, huh?

 

[MapleLeaf]

...did anyone catch the reruns of the "Gong Show" last night on TV Land?

This is the cue to end this thread.

 

[Stash]

...did anyone catch the reruns of the "Gong Show" last night on TV Land?

This is the cue to end this thread.

I'm fine with that. Spent too much time on it already.


And now I just spent some more! D'oh!

:bang2:

 

[Hostile]

...did anyone catch the reruns of the "Gong Show" last night on TV Land?

This is the cue to end this thread.

I liked this thread. Sad to see it end.

 

[sacase]

Apologize for the mathematical error. In my defense, I was at work. You're right about the footage. But I still think it supports my point. Flooding two receivers into a small area is not an advantage to an offense.



So he stays in Roy Williams' coverage zone and never leaves it? Maybe then Roy would have made the play I guess.



Congratulations on your years of high school football glory. You must be so proud. The fact of the matter is that you would again have two players running in the same small area of the field - with Newman in between able to make a play on either one.

The call the Patriots made was better than any of the speculations mentioned. They crossed-up the defense, forcing two players to exchange coverage responsibilities. Roy Williams didn't and they got an easy six points. You can speculate about anything else all you want but that's what happened.



Guess they didn't teach you that in high school football, huh?

Sorry Bro I played WR in a Pass oriented offense. We would have patterns were you have a WR at 5 yards and another at 12 yards. 16 yards is a lot of space to cover. Especially when you are reacting. Hostile also played in college and I bet he will tell you the same thing. Its called complimentry routes. Having a receiver run a fade and having another pattern come under that is common. The receiver running the fade is clearing out the CB so the TE can come underhim. There is no possible way the CB can play both people. Even Dion can't do it. At best he MAY be able to make the tackle.

Its funny that you are trying to tell me that I am speculating, when at best you are speculating. Personally, I think you are pulling things out of your footh point of contact to use against Roy.

So please share, what is your football background. I would guess none.

 

[Stash]

Sorry Bro I played WR in a Pass oriented offense. We would have patterns were you have a WR at 5 yards and another at 12 yards. 16 yards is a lot of space to cover. Especially when you are reacting. Hostile also played in college and I bet he will tell you the same thing. Its called complimentry routes. Having a receiver run a fade and having another pattern come under that is common. The receiver running the fade is clearing out the CB so the TE can come underhim. There is no possible way the CB can play both people. Even Dion can't do it. At best he MAY be able to make the tackle.

Its funny that you are trying to tell me that I am speculating, when at best you are speculating. Personally, I think you are pulling things out of your footh point of contact to use against Roy.

So please share, what is your football background. I would guess none.

I've said that I'm done with this thread.

It's gone on long enough.

I'll never change anyone's mind and they won't change mine. We'll just agree to disagree and move on.

Sorry if you were late to the party.

 

[khiladi]

Why is trying to bash Reed part of the obligatory defense for Roy? He's a terrific football player and I'd take him over Roy every day of the week and twice on Tuesday.

Ed Reed also had the Baltimore Ravens, who had a much more aggressive front line, and players like Adlaius Thomas up-front to generate heat on the QB.... So in essence, they both are pretty damn good players, and roughly similar in numbers. It says a lot for those that want to jump on Roy, especially considering Roy played cover-2 all last year, '50 yards' from the line of scrimmage...

 

[iceberg]

Ed Reed also had the Baltimore Ravens, who had a much more aggressive front line, and players like Adlaius Thomas up-front to generate heat on the QB.... So in essence, they both are pretty damn good players, and roughly similar in numbers. It says a lot for those that want to jump on Roy, especially considering Roy played cover-2 all last year, '50 yards' from the line of scrimmage...

good point. it's like what if aikman went to arizona, would he have had the same career? we get so focused on the player we have vs. "they have" we don't realize the team makes the difference in as much as the player.

the schemes, the talent around the player, the coaching, the fanbase, all this can make a difference. what if roy were in baltimore vs. here and as many have said, misused here? what if ed reed were here - would he be able to cover (2) people in the endzone and make people like stash happy?

just asking.

 

[Zimmy Lives]

good point. it's like what if aikman went to arizona, would he have had the same career? we get so focused on the player we have vs. "they have" we don't realize the team makes the difference in as much as the player.

the schemes, the talent around the player, the coaching, the fanbase, all this can make a difference. what if roy were in baltimore vs. here and as many have said, misused here? what if ed reed were here - would he be able to cover (2) people in the endzone and make people like stash happy?

just asking.

First, let me state that I am not in favor of trading/benching/shooting/stabbing Roy Williams. What does disappointment me, however, is that the season is six games old and I do not see a difference (production-wise) in how he is used this season as opposed to last season. I was hoping he could be a difference-making playmaker in this new scheme.

 

[dbair1967]

First, let me state that I am not in favor of trading/benching/shooting/stabbing Roy Williams. What does disappointment me, however, is that the season is six games old and I do not see a difference (production-wise) in how he is used this season as opposed to last season. I was hoping he could be a difference-making playmaker in this new scheme.

and again...listen to what the coaches have said...our CB's are hurt, the backups need help...until we get our 1 and 2 CB's on the field together, its just what we will have to deal with

Reeves and Nate Jones are not capable of covering good WR's one on one

David