Why are Gurley/Fournette considered better than Elliott?

[texbumthelife]

4.35 is his normal time and sub 4.3 is his campus time

What is normal time vs. campus time? I know campus numbers are frequently much more player friendly, but what is the criteria for his "regular number"? Does he run track as well? Kid definitely has ridiculous break away speed, not arguing that.

 

[DFWJC]

What is normal time vs. campus time? I know campus numbers are frequently much more player friendly, but what is the criteria for his "regular number"? Does he run track as well? Kid definitely has ridiculous break away speed, not arguing that.

Oh, I was just looking at the normal numbers listed for him. It's usually 4.35 or 4.37. Since he doesn't yet have a combine time, I'm not sure what his "official" numbers would be.
And yeah, without exception, the campus numbers are always lower. I usually don't pay much attention to them...so probably shouldn't have even posted it.

I did just go back and look. Saw a few sources that had him at 4.35 but draftscoutn only had him at 4.37 as his "low" and 4.47 and his time. So some range there.
lol
There's even a youtube of him in full game gear and during a game going 3.9 in the forty, but they started timing him after he was already running, so it wouldn't count. Still pretty crazy and shows his speed is affected much by the uniform like it is with some.

 

[texbumthelife]

Oh, I was just looking at the normal numbers listed for him. It's usually 4.35 or 4.37. Since he doesn't yet have a combine time, I'm not sure what his "official" numbers would be.
And yeah, without exception, the campus numbers are always lower. I usually don't pay much attention to them...so probably shouldn't have even posted it.

I did just go back and look. Saw a few sources that had him at 4.35 but draftscoutn only had him at 4.37 as his "low" and 4.47 and his time. So some range there.
lol
There's even a youtube of him in full game gear and during a game going 3.9 in the forty, but they started timing him after he was already running, so it wouldn't count. Still pretty crazy and shows his speed is affected much by the uniform like it is with some.

Wasn't calling you out at all, btw. Thanks for the input. I watched his videos and he's cleary got speed to burn. Unfortunately, I think he's going to need to put on a little more beef if he is going to keep running so upright, so I would be interested to see how that effects his time. Personally, I think he's a bit of a one-trick pony. An all or nothing running. For a bigger guy I don't see him breaking a lot of tackles or moving the pile very often. Also, due to his upright style and stiffness I wonder about his ability to catch the ball and be good in blitz pickup.

These are some of the reasons I think Dalvin Cook is a better pro prospect.

 

[DFWJC]

Wasn't calling you out at all, btw. Thanks for the input. I watched his videos and he's cleary got speed to burn. Unfortunately, I think he's going to need to put on a little more beef if he is going to keep running so upright, so I would be interested to see how that effects his time. Personally, I think he's a bit of a one-trick pony. An all or nothing running. For a bigger guy I don't see him breaking a lot of tackles or moving the pile very often. Also, due to his upright style and stiffness I wonder about his ability to catch the ball and be good in blitz pickup.

These are some of the reasons I think Dalvin Cook is a better pro prospect.

Plenty of RBs next year. Actually, there were some pretty good ones later in the draft this year.
Oh well...go Zeke.

 

[texbumthelife]

Bama shut him down because LSU didn't have anyone to go to. I don't care if you're OJ Simpson, Jim Brown or Adrian Peterson. If you don't have a threat of a passing game, teams are going to load the box, and you're not going to be able to do anything.

I don't fault Fournette one bit for not being able run pass the Bama defense. He got no help from his quarterback or his receivers. In fact, the Bama game plan was to "STOP FOURNETTE". It's back-up game plan was to "STOP FOURNETTE".

Just splitting hairs and playing devils advocate, but AD put up huge numbers for years with nothing else on offense and a patch work offensive line. Dude it GOAT

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I must admit as I've gotten older and work all week long the last thing I want to do on a Saturday is sit inside and watch TV, so I've definitely lost touch with what players are good/why.

This felt like the first year in a long while (probably because of the high draft pick) that I just felt completely without any opinion on individual players.

Having said that I keep reading Elliott is considered a run below these guys, it seems at least as a runner. Why is that? The more I've watched Elliott I see a smart runner with physical talent and crazy cut and go ability, but really the smart part sticks out. Of course i'm looking at 5 minutes of highlights on youtube....ha.

Just curious for this boards thoughts, for anyone that cares to share.

For me it comes down to Zeke's power and speed. In order to be in that top echelon like AP and Bo you have to be 90th percentile in speed, quickness, and power.

AP and Bo run a 4.3 and Zeke is .1 slower.

AP, Bo and, and Zeke have elite quickness. I will grant that.

Power is harder quantify but the way I see it AP and Bo carried piles while Zeke slithers through them. Zeke runs through arm tackles while the others run people over.

Now that is not to say Zeke is slow or weak. He is above average in both regards but to me he is a rung below as you say.

 

[texbumthelife]

For me it comes down to Zeke's power and speed. In order to be in that top echelon like AP and Bo you have to be 90th percentile in speed, quickness, and power.

AP and Bo run a 4.3 and Zeke is .1 slower.

AP, Bo and, and Zeke have elite quickness. I will grant that.

Power is harder quantify but the way I see it AP and Bo carried piles while Zeke slithers through them. Zeke runs through arm tackles while the others run people over.

Now that is not to say Zeke is slow or weak. He is above average in both regards but to me he is a rung below as you say.

Do you consider Emmitt and Barry "top echelon"?

Zeke being .1 behind Bo and AD is moot for me. The amount of breakaway runs he had in college is testament that he is plenty fast and even more testament to his vision, which is the absolute most important trait for a running back if you ask me. I agree, they all three have tremendous quickness, but Zeke is absolutely quicker than Bo Jackson was. Bo wasn't a COD type of back. He wasn't going to hop step and hit top end instantly like Zeke does. I'd give that nod to Zeke and AD. Power is no contest, Bo puts even AD to shame, but AD is certainly more powerful than Zeke.

Being a different style of runner doesn't necessarily diminish ones ability to be great. Emmitt and Barry were worlds apart and just as different from each other as they are from the two guys you listed. They are both, however, in the discussion for the greatest runningbacks of all time. Zeke doesn't power through tackles or move the pile more frequently because he simply doesn't have to. He sets up hole and explodes through them so precisely and at such an elite level, he's rarely caught behind or in a pile.

Mind you, I am just discussing here. I'm not attempting to detract from your argument, simply to add to the argument as a whole.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Do you consider Emmitt and Barry "top echelon"?

Zeke being .1 behind Bo and AD is moot for me. The amount of breakaway runs he had in college is testament that he is plenty fast and even more testament to his vision, which is the absolute most important trait for a running back if you ask me. I agree, they all three have tremendous quickness, but Zeke is absolutely quicker than Bo Jackson was. Bo wasn't a COD type of back. He wasn't going to hop step and hit top end instantly like Zeke does. I'd give that nod to Zeke and AD. Power is no contest, Bo puts even AD to shame, but AD is certainly more powerful than Zeke.

Being a different style of runner doesn't necessarily diminish ones ability to be great. Emmitt and Barry were worlds apart and just as different from each other as they are from the two guys you listed. They are both, however, in the discussion for the greatest runningbacks of all time. Zeke doesn't power through tackles or move the pile more frequently because he simply doesn't have to. He sets up hole and explodes through them so precisely and at such an elite level, he's rarely caught behind or in a pile.

Mind you, I am just discussing here. I'm not attempting to detract from your argument, simply to add to the argument as a whole.

If you want to point to Emmitt as comparison then I cannot stop you but his longevity is what set him apart and that one of those things you prove over time. He didn't break down when every other back in history did. I really don't see the Zeke comparison at all.

Barry was overrated and taken out in goal line because of his lack of power for all his yards and greatness between the 20's; he wasn't a complete back. Even then he ran in the 4.3s as well.

For all of Zeke's scores he had a reputation for being caught from behind on long runs.

 

[DFWJC]

Zeke is plenty fast.

But for the record...he is WAY more than just .1 second slower vs Bo Jackson.
.1 is a lot though. Just not as much when you can already outrun most of the secondary. He did that regularly in college.
he's not a blazer, but he's plenty fast for his diverse skill set.

 

[SilverStarCowboy]

Because they are physical phreaks of nature. While Zeke is the Emmitt Smith/Walter Payton of the Barry Sanders/Eric Dickerson great RB debates.

All around RB Elliot is a complete player with a high floor compare him to Thurman Thomas excellent vision and all around player, but his ceiling isn't Gurley or Fournette they have Gale Sayers like ability.

Ezekiel is being mentioned with some all-time greats, it's exciting but unrealistic to prop him up at such great heights before seeing a glimpse of NFL action. Same with Fournette.

 

[RJ_MacReady]

Oh yeah, well how do they look in a crop-top?

 

[texbumthelife]

If you want to point to Emmitt as comparison then I cannot stop you but his longevity is what set him apart and that one of those things you prove over time. He didn't break down when every other back in history did. I really don't see the Zeke comparison at all.

Barry was overrated and taken out in goal line because of his lack of power for all his yards and greatness between the 20's; he wasn't a complete back. Even then he ran in the 4.3s as well.

For all of Zeke's scores he had a reputation for being caught from behind on long runs.

So Emmitt was only great because of his longevity and Barry wasn't great because he wasn't a complete back? Zeke actually compares pretty similarly to Emmitt as far as build, being squatty and thick with low centers of gravity. He's also got incredible vision, which is what really set Emmitt apart. Emmitt's vision kept him from taking a lot of big shots and his build helped him absorb them.

Zeke may have been caught some, but he absolutely didn't have a reputation of that happening. Running a 4.47 makes you faster than about 90% of college football players.

FTR I am not taking anything away from the greats or putting Zeke in a class with them.

 

[texbumthelife]

Because they are physical phreaks of nature. While Zeke is the Emmitt Smith/Walter Payton of the Barry Sanders/Eric Dickerson great RB debates.

All around RB Elliot is a complete player with a high floor compare him to Thurman Thomas excellent vision and all around player, but his ceiling isn't Gurley or Fournette they have Gale Sayers like ability.

Ezekiel is being mentioned with some all-time greats, it's exciting but unrealistic to prop him up at such great heights before seeing a glimpse of NFL action. Same with Fournette.

Gurley and Fournette aren't anywhere close to the all-around player and back Sayers was. Gale Sayers could have been a pro bowl wide receiver. He was the best return man in the league. If Fournette ever averages more than 20 rec/season in the NFL I will eat my shoe. Gurley is good, but I don't see the logic behind saying we can't compare Zeke to greats because he hasn't played yet, but its ok to compare Gurley (1 season) and Fournette (still in college) to Sayers.

 

[tyke1doe]

Nope, that was just a miss on my part. Good pick up.

I meant "Good post" but I assume you knew what I meant. Dang, auto correct.

 

[vlad]

I like your honesty and vulnerability. Many of us think we know more than we do so it's refreshing to read posters who admit they don't know it all and seek feedback from others.

I admit, I can be a bit arrogant in my opinions, but, as the old folks say, God is still working on me.

Anyway, just wanted to share that. Now, back to reading the responses to your question.

man, that's just an awesome post - kudos and thanks. I honestly don't post that much because within about 3 posts it turns into a pissing contest. But i do enjoy hearing what people think and i love this board. Feel good moment of the day!

 

[vlad]

Just wanted to say thanks for everyone that responded to my question and that this was just an awesome thread - no one fighting over nonsense, just discussing and being cool with each other. Thanks everyone.

For me, I admit I wasn't in on the pick the night of the draft, I just felt we needed to go D and a RB that high wasn't the best use of resources. Having watched, read, and learned more about him, I am really thrilled with the player and see that he really could be THAT different than what we had/could have had. Something about how he reads and explodes and spaces himself. I hope he has that ability to avoid big hits, so he doesn't lose his legs unnecessarily early in his career. I haven't seen too many clips of his pass catching but supposedly he's a stud at that too.

Interesting is how big the guy is, I mean we're talking about a 225-30 pound guy, and I love the way he is built, being thick and a low center of gravity (as some have said others have a more upright running style).

anyway, i'm excited that maybe we'll give Romo someone to take the pressure off given our scheme doesn't really gear for that.

Thanks again

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So Emmitt was only great because of his longevity and Barry wasn't great because he wasn't a complete back? Zeke actually compares pretty similarly to Emmitt as far as build, being squatty and thick with low centers of gravity. He's also got incredible vision, which is what really set Emmitt apart. Emmitt's vision kept him from taking a lot of big shots and his build helped him absorb them.

Zeke may have been caught some, but he absolutely didn't have a reputation of that happening. Running a 4.47 makes you faster than about 90% of college football players.

FTR I am not taking anything away from the greats or putting Zeke in a class with them.

Zeke is 6' that isn't squatty. I don't see it. Zeke is a ZBS guy and Smith was all lead gap behind Moose. Different styles.

Barry was overrated because he was ineffective in the red zone to the point he was taken off the field. It's one thing to rotate. It's quite another to replace. I'm not saying he wasn't a great back but we're talking generational talent and trying to separate.

Zeke reminds me of Roger Craig.

 

[VACowboy]

Zeke is 6' that isn't squatty. I don't see it. Zeke is a ZBS guy and Smith was all lead gap behind Moose. Different styles.

Barry was overrated because he was ineffective in the red zone to the point he was taken off the field. It's one thing to rotate. It's quite another to replace. I'm not saying he wasn't a great back but we're talking generational talent and trying to separate.

Zeke reminds me of Roger Craig.

Roger Craig is a great comparison, especially physically, but I think Zeke will be a better runner than Craig and maybe not quite the receiver. I think it's safe to say that Zeke will get a lot more opportunities to carry and a lot fewer to catch. Interesting, at least to me, is that both were fantastic track athletes. The only 40 time I could find for Craig is 4.8. That can't be right.

I think overall, a lot of people are underselling Elliot's strengths as a runner when comparing him to Fournette and Gurley. To me, Zeke looks like the quickest of the three, by far. He makes cuts and eludes tacklers that the other two guys just don't. I agree that Zeke probably isn't as strong, but I think he also sees the field better than Fournette or Gurley and therefore is better at exploiting holes and running lanes. I don't think it's a bad thing when a RB makes a guy miss instead of running over him. Elliot does fall forward when he's in a pile, though, which I think is more important than blowing linebackers up.

So while I like the Roger Craig comparison, Elliot looks like a bigger Lesean McCoy to me. They are both quick, with great vision and cutting ability that allows them to thrive in a zone running attack. An inch shorter and 24-lbs lighter, McCoy ran 02 faster than Elliot did at the Combine, so if the 40-yard dash is the end-all for football speed, I guess Shady is a bunch slower than Fournette/Gurley too. Although, Gurley didn't run at the Combine and Fournette is still in college, so I'm not sure the 40 comparisons are valid. The League should move the Combine to Blacksburg. Everyone would run a heck of lot faster.

 

[JBS]

Fournette looks really stiff to me...Definitely has straight line speed...not much wiggle..

I expected more..

 

[JBS]

Roger Craig is a great comparison, especially physically, but I think Zeke will be a better runner than Craig and maybe not quite the receiver. I think it's safe to say that Zeke will get a lot more opportunities to carry and a lot fewer to catch. Interesting, at least to me, is that both were fantastic track athletes. The only 40 time I could find for Craig is 4.8. That can't be right.

I think overall, a lot of people are underselling Elliot's strengths as a runner when comparing him to Fournette and Gurley. To me, Zeke looks like the quickest of the three, by far. He makes cuts and eludes tacklers that the other two guys just don't. I agree that Zeke probably isn't as strong, but I think he also sees the field better than Fournette or Gurley and therefore is better at exploiting holes and running lanes. I don't think it's a bad thing when a RB makes a guy miss instead of running over him. Elliot does fall forward when he's in a pile, though, which I think is more important than blowing linebackers up.

So while I like the Roger Craig comparison, Elliot looks like a bigger Lesean McCoy to me. They are both quick, with great vision and cutting ability that allows them to thrive in a zone running attack. An inch shorter and 24-lbs lighter, McCoy ran 02 faster than Elliot did at the Combine, so if the 40-yard dash is the end-all for football speed, I guess Shady is a bunch slower than Fournette/Gurley too. Although, Gurley didn't run at the Combine and Fournette is still in college, so I'm not sure the 40 comparisons are valid. The League should move the Combine to Blacksburg. Everyone would run a heck of lot faster.

Good write up...I agree w a lot here...I don't see any mccoy in Zeke though...mccoy is way quicker and way more shifty..zeke is quicker and shiftier than fournette for sure...I need to see more of gurley before I compare...